80, 70 is the result of the dice. And no, I don't see how you'd easily get more than +30 on a full auto, or +40 on an accurate, which is what I counted with. It's true that accurate weapons can be dodged more easily, but characters only get one dodge per turn. And I think you're disregarding soak too much, most aliens and daemons easily have 8+ dmg reduction, reducing most full auto hits to pitiful damage.

80, 70 is the result of the dice. And no, I don't see how you'd easily get more than +30 on a full auto, or +40 on an accurate, which is what I counted with. It's true that accurate weapons can be dodged more easily, but characters only get one dodge per turn. And I think you're disregarding soak too much, most aliens and daemons easily have 8+ dmg reduction, reducing most full auto hits to pitiful damage.

This being DH, your job usually isn't to fight aliens. The Ordo Xeno has the Deathwatch for that. Daemons should be nearly impervious to bullets, and **** scary too. However, for the average dude, the soak is probably around 6, minus one or 2 for weapon pen. Remember, the only thing that currently matters is the amount of hits that deal any damage; if I have two hits with more than 50% chance to damage, FA wins.

And for the modifiers, are you talking about DH1 or DH2?

This being DH, your job usually isn't to fight aliens. The Ordo Xeno has the Deathwatch for that.

Granted, this depends on where the upcoming DH2 places its focus at, and considering an oft-lamented "power creep" towards "more epic" in earlier books... One could further argue that an Inquisitor's job isn't to just fight cultist shmocks. The Imperium has the Adeptus Arbites for that.

Matter of preferences, though - I've never been a friend of DH's initially rather low scale, yet some (a lot?) of people love it. An ideal system should probably cater to both approaches, and I would have hoped that, with the earlier announcement, DH2 would allow just that.

I'm too used to reading about Inquisitors dueling alien menaces and daemons in GW's own books.

Then again, FFG has basically locked out Inquisitors from Deathwatch (where in other sources they are the default leaders for such teams), so maybe they do aim for a much more limited experience for normal humans after all.

Modifiers are DH1. I've been talking about DH1 the entire time. In DH2 full auto is obviously 100% superior, and will likely always be so due to the way wounds work.

And well, in my group rarely fought regular humies. It was typically cultists who had typically summoned some sort of daemonic aid or xenos, or hereteks. And about this whole "has deathwatch for that". Deathwatch is for fighting a known enemy. They're the tactical nuke you bring down when you know where and what your enemy is. Acolytes are a chirurgeon, sent to find out what is plaguing a place, and cut it out if possible. At least that's how my group played, but I'm sure that's not the only way.

This seems interesting to me in that people seem to be simultaneously complaining about lower Pen values and lower Armour values. That alone seems to be something of a balancing factor. Second, having lower Pen values makes Armour actually matter at higher levels. It's nice to know that my character decked out in awesome power armor can fight an opponent with a similar level of equipment and not have the power armor being immediately sliced through by a Pen of 9, rendering the armor useless and making Toughness the key stat for defense. In addition, having low level armor (flak) being reduced means that low level weapons can manage to penetrate it about on par with how high level weapons can penetrate power armour. I like seeing things like the Hand Cannon having high damage values that make it an actual viable option, now. Here's how the math breaks down on an Autogun versus the handcannon.

Autogun versus Toughness 4, Armour 4 Opponent

30% chance of getting a 1 on the Wound chart, 20% chance of getting a 2, 10% chance of getting a 3 (none of these results will result in a condition or penalty for the attacked player.

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 8 hits

0 Wounds (5.76%); 1 Wound (19.77%), 2 Wounds (29.65%), 3 Wounds (25.41%),4 Wounds (13.61%); 5 Wounds (4.67%); 6 Wounds (1%); 7 Wounds (0.12%); 8 Wounds (<0.01%)

(So this gives a 74.47% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 7 hits

0 Wounds (8.23%); 1 Wound (24.71%); 2 Wounds (31.77%); 3 Wounds (22.69%); 4 Wounds (9.72%); 5 Wounds (2.50%); 6 Wounds (0.36%); 7 Wounds (0.02%)

( 67.06% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 6 hits

0 Wounds (11.76%); 1 Wound (30.25%); 2 Wounds (32.41%); 3 Wounds (18.52%); 4 Wounds (5.95%); 5 Wounds (1.02%); 6 Wounds (0.07%)

( 57.99% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 5 hits

0 Wounds (16.81%); 1 Wound (36.02%); 2 Wounds (30.87%); 3 Wounds (13.23%); 4 Wounds (2.84%); 5 Wounds (0.24%)

( 47.17% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 4 hits

0 Wounds (24.01%); 1 Wound (41.16%); 2 Wounds (26.46%); 3 Wounds (7.56%); 4 Wounds (0.81%)

( 34.83% chance of at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 3 hits

0 Wounds (34.3%); 1 Wound (44.1%); 2 Wounds (18.9%); 3 Wounds (2.7%)

( 21.6% chance of at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 2 hits

0 Wounds (49%); 1 Wound (42%); 2 Wounds (9%)

( 9% chance of at least 2 wounds )

Autogun versus Toughness 3, Armour 3 Opponent

50% chance of 1 on the Wound chart, 40% chance of a 2, 30% chance of a 3, 20% chance of a 4, 10% chance of a 5 (again, none of these results will actually cause a condition or penalty to the target.

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 8 hits

0 Wounds (0.39%); 1 Wound (3.13%), 2 Wounds (10.94%), 3 Wounds (21.88%),4 Wounds (27.34%); 5 Wounds (21.88%); 6 Wounds (10.94%); 7 Wounds (3.13%); 8 Wounds (0.39%)

(So this gives a 96.48% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 7 hits

0 Wounds (0.78%); 1 Wound (5.47%); 2 Wounds (16.41%); 3 Wounds (27.34%); 4 Wounds (27.34%); 5 Wounds (16.41%); 6 Wounds (5.47%); 7 Wounds (0.78%)

( 93.75% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 6 hits

0 Wounds (1.56%); 1 Wound (9.38%); 2 Wounds (23.44%); 3 Wounds (31.25%); 4 Wounds (23.44%); 5 Wounds (9.38%); 6 Wounds (1,56%)

( 89.06% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 5 hits

0 Wounds (3.13%); 1 Wound (15.63%); 2 Wounds (31.25%); 3 Wounds (31.25%); 4 Wounds (15.63%); 5 Wounds (3.13%)

( 81.24% chance of scoring at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 4 hits

0 Wounds (6.25%); 1 Wound (25.00%); 2 Wounds (37.50%); 3 Wounds (25.00%); 4 Wounds (6.25%)

( 68.75% chance of at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 3 hits

0 Wounds (12.5%); 1 Wound (37.5%); 2 Wounds (37.5%); 3 Wounds (12.5%)

( 50% chance of at least 2 Wounds )

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 2 hits

0 Wounds (25%); 1 Wound (50%); 2 Wounds (25%)

( 25% chance of at least 2 wounds )

Hand Cannon versus Toughness 4, Armour 4 Opponent

90% chance of 1 on the Wound chat, 80% of chance of 2, 70% chance of 3, 60% chance of 4, 50% chance of 5, 40% chance of 6, 30% chance of 7, 20% chance of 8, 10% chance of 9. (Meaning that the chance of causing a wound condition is around 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 depending on which location is hit)

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 2 hits

0 Wounds (1%); 1 Wound (18%); 2 Wounds (81%)

Hand Cannon versus Toughness 3, Armour 3 Opponent

100% chance of a 2 on the Wound chart, 90% chance of a 3, 80% of chance of 4, 70% chance of 5, 60% chance of 6, 50% chance of 7, 40% chance of 8, 30% chance of 9, 20% chance of 10, 10% chance of 11 (chance of causing a wound condition is 1 in 2 or 2 in 5, depending on location hit)

Here are the chances of how many Wounds can be given if the attack results in 2 hits

0 Wounds (0%); 1 Wound (0%); 2 Wounds (100%)

So, from the looks of it, Full Auto kind of sucks against a heavier armored target, and is a trade off between guaranteed wound/likely painful one and a risky chance to cause multiple wounds. This risk obviously goes down with increased ballistic skill, but you're looking at at least 4 hits required in order to hit a decently armored target with average toughness.

Edit: I realize from my math that the probabilities of multiple hits did not take into account the increased probability of getting 2 wounds if you score more than 2 hits. I'll update the numbers in a bit.

Edit 2: Fixed the numbers

Very interesting to see those numbers, Nimsim. Thanks for doing the work!

It's worth remembering, with all the talk about tons of hits, that the RoF sets the cap on what you can do, as I understand it - you still need to actually roll those Degrees of Success. With the lack of Point Blank bonuses, it's not going to be easy to get those 8 Degrees of Success with the auto-pistol, even at rank 10, and those 32 "potential" hits with a Chainblade aren't ever going to happen.

I'm getting the numbers for all of the weapons (including the ones with modifiers to damage, pen, and tearing from special ammo), so if anyone would like to see a certain weapon, let me know.

No specific requests for weapons here, but maybe putting it in a Google spreadsheet would make it easier to read

Thanks Nimsim, looks like I had the right feeling after all. Sometimes not everything is doom and gloom!

Okay, so you have an autogun, with a RoF of 2

now you decide to spent all 4 ap on your shooting giving you and RoA of 8

You roll a dice, and if you succeed, you get a hit, and for every degree of success, you get another hit in.

You roll damage, and everything that deals more then 1 damage accounts as one wound, so if your dos is 3, then you get 4 hits in, and with your target not wearing 2 ap armor and 2 tb you get 3, 7, 10 and 7 on your damage rolls

the first hit goes through, and causes one wound, and since all the attacks does less then 6 damage, any effect on the wound table is superficial, like bruises.

Next attack, you use 1 ap this time, for an RoA of 2, and you do a success, by 5 degrees, so both your attacks hit.

the first attack hits for 9, after defense it deals 5 damage, with the three wounds from earlier giving a +15 bonus, for a total of 20 it is a hit to the chest, the chest armor suffers 3 levels of damage, so is now broken and does not give defense, the target is stunned for 1d5-sb rounds (to a minimum of 1) and suffer blood loss (1)

the next hit does 5 to the chest, so with no armor there it deals 3 damage, +15 of the wounds of the previous attack, leaves you with 18 damage, and on the wound effect table for chest, the target is knocked prone, and must do a strength test or be dazed.

Currently your target has a total 5 wounds, meaning a +25 bonus on any hit that goes through toughness and armor.

(see post above)

Everything this guy said is 100% correct.

One of the core issues that was raised here is that the cumulative bonus for accumulating wounds does not apply until after the attack is resolved in its entirety; I would submit that the cumulative bonus should apply after each wound resolves.

As written, you could get wounded 8 times in a single attack from an autogun and survive with some minor cuts. Assuming you don't get shot again, you can "sleep it off" without any real consequences.

As proposed, by time the 8th bullet wounds you (assuming the other 7 also wounded you), you would be at +35 on the wound effects tables (i.e. dead).

... at the very least, there need to be something to reward a player (or an NPC) for scoring multiple wounds in a single round.

Hakaisha,

You're assuming very good damage rolls on the part of the autogun. Actual probability is that it's going to fail to beat defense on a lot of attacks. There's a good chance in one of those attacks of the autogun causing no wounds. Meanwhile, the stronger weapons are consistently hitting. I will say that against an unarmored target the auto fire is king. You also would have killed any non-master PC in your first roll with that critical hit up there. Also, on the rules as written, you get one hit per degree of success, not a free hit plus more (but you always get one degree of success for succeeding, so this is just semantics). I think the bigger issue here is the lack of a single shot kill maneuver for scoring critical hits, and the higher chance of autofire scoring a crit right now. Also, overcharged lasguns seem too powerful.

Exalted,

If you start adding the damage bonus to each wound in the same attack, full auto gets a HUGE boost in power, and definitely overbalances it to single shot weapons. You'd be looking at single shot weapons needing deal between 15-20 more damage to balance things out. Your reward for getting multiple hits right now is multiple chances at wounds with a low damage weapon and getting to really add in the extra wounds.

I do like the idea of the wound system but I will admit that the idea of small flesh wounds leaving you as vulnerable to a final blow as a few major wounds is dumb. Maybe adding tiers to the wounds would help. Make the minor wounds only give a +1 bonus, and then tier it up.

" Keep in mind that multiple hits from the same attack do not each gain a +5 on the wound result table for wounding strikes though (if I read you right). It's only +5 per attack, no matter how many wounding hits that attack caused. Multiple hits can get you multiple results on the wound tables, but they don't grow more deadly from hit to hit within the same attack. (If I didn't understand you properly here, please let me know!)"

So, I just got this in my inbox after sending in some suggestions. We finally have some official ruling on how things work.

" Keep in mind that multiple hits from the same attack do not each gain a +5 on the wound result table for wounding strikes though (if I read you right). It's only +5 per attack, no matter how many wounding hits that attack caused. Multiple hits can get you multiple results on the wound tables, but they don't grow more deadly from hit to hit within the same attack. (If I didn't understand you properly here, please let me know!)"

So, I just got this in my inbox after sending in some suggestions. We finally have some official ruling on how things work.

Interesting. To be honest, it sounds like they're a bit confused. What was the initial question?

The book makes it clear that the +5/+10 modifiers are only added in from wounds generated before the current attack.

This quote appears to indicate that wounds are grouped by attack. But that doesn't seem to make sense, as how would/should it classify critical wounds? Also there is absolutely no wording for this, but its being stated as if its a clarification of whats in the book.

I wouldn't be surprised if they simply suffer from the issue that the rules, as far as they see them, are probably fairly fluid. They're still in development, after all.

Anyway, the question was less a question and more me sending in some of the better suggestions I've seen for how to mitigate the ridiculous overpower that full auto seemed to have in the system. I didn't expect a response that indicates we may all have been arguing pointlessly.

Oh, and on a related note, they are looking into trying to fix the issue of papercutting enemies to death with weak attacks, which also plays into this. Apparently we may well see changes in next week's errata.

Completely Misread the Quote!!!!!

Apologies.

I think the key line is "Multiple hits can get you multiple results on the wound tables, but they don't grow more deadly from hit to hit within the same attack." This reflects the consensus of the forum, that wounds inflicted in a single attack don't add their wound bonuses to each other.

"Keep in mind that multiple hits from the same attack do not each gain a +5 on the wound result table for wounding strikes though (if I read you right). It's only +5 per attack, no matter how many wounding hits that attack caused."

And this confuses me! So, it sounds like the question this is answering is "If target already has one wound and is hit with multiple wounds in a single attack, does each wound get the +5 bonus?" The answer is implying that, no, the bonus is only applied once. But then where is it applied? The first wound inflicted? Divided up amongst the wounds? What happens here?

I also don't see anything in this quote negating the idea of multiple wounds from one attack each giving the +5 modifier to the next attack.

Your quite right, I completely misread it.

So scratch that

Nimsim, I used a dicebot for all the rolls, and i didnt include the ability to evade

Critical damage is when you roll a 10 on your 1d10 for damage.

But here is the thing with armor is that it is harder to get now, power armor is at -50, Carapace at -40 and mesh at -30. So you can start with a certain amount of -20 items.

Then there are forcefields, that are somewhat essential now as their protection rating is how many DoS they 'absorb' now, if the current dos goes to 0. But I do hope this will be changed as if you ws is 45 and you roll a 45, then you make a hit, so yeah...

Correct me if im wrong, but i might be about how the forcefield works...

" Keep in mind that multiple hits from the same attack do not each gain a +5 on the wound result table for wounding strikes though (if I read you right). It's only +5 per attack, no matter how many wounding hits that attack caused. Multiple hits can get you multiple results on the wound tables, but they don't grow more deadly from hit to hit within the same attack. (If I didn't understand you properly here, please let me know!)"

So, I just got this in my inbox after sending in some suggestions. We finally have some official ruling on how things work.

Erm... frankly looks like it actually makes it less clear. Ok, yes, it is clarified that in 1 attack you do not get the bonuses to the wounding modifier from hits within the same attack, but it also says 1) you only get a +5 for every attack received, rather than every wound received, and then 2) they say "they don't grow more deadly from hit-to-hit within the same attack", which suggests that it does get more deadly for each wound (rather than each attack) for subsequent attacks...

Hakaisha, When it comes to running the math, doing an accurate test of weapon mechanics would require you run the numbers thousands and thousands of times, due to the probability of random deviations skewing the data being higher the less times you run a simulation. That's why I'm doing the flat probabilities, rather than rolling them out myself. I have run the probability of a righteous fury, though.

Righteous Fury Chance

Dice Rolled Chance

1d10 10.00%

2d10 19.00%

3d10 27.10%

4d10 34.39%

5d10 40.95%

6d10 46.86%

7d10 52.17%

8d10 56.95%

9d10 61.26%

10d10 65.13%

11d10 68.62%

12d10 71.76%

So yes, you're definitely right about the Righteous Fury chance increasing; I agree that this is currently a big advantage to high RoF weapons. Good observation on Armor Rarity, too. I think the more common and starting armors can be pretty effective against most automatic fire (barring special ammunition or overcharged lasguns), though. Yes, ForceFields seem to work by rolling 1 to 3 d5s based on Quality, taking the best of them, and subtracting that number from the attack's DoS. Here's a handy probability table!

ForceFields

Refractor

d5s Rolled Chance of 0 Chance of 1 Chance of 2 Chance of 3

1d5 40% 20% 20% 20%

2d5 16% 20% 28% 36%

3d5 6.4% 15.2% 29.6% 48.8%

Conversion

d5s Rolled Chance of 0 Chance of 1 Chance of 2 Chance of 3 Chance of 4

1d5 20% 20% 20% 20% 20%

2d5 4% 12% 20% 28% 36%

3d5 0.8% 5.6% 15.2% 29.6% 48.8%

Displacer

d5s Rolled Chance of 1 Chance of 2 Chance of 3 Chance of 4 Chance of 5

1d5 20% 20% 20% 20% 20%

2d5 4% 12% 20% 28% 36%

3d5 0.8% 5.6% 15.2% 29.6% 48.8%

Power

d5s Rolled Chance of 2 Chance of 3 Chance of 4 Chance of 5 Chance of 6

1d5 20% 20% 20% 20% 20%

2d5 4% 12% 20% 28% 36%

3d5 0.8% 5.6% 15.2% 29.6% 48.8%

I'm not really sure what you mean by hoping they change "if you roll 45 on a WS of 45 you make a hit." That's how it's always been. Are you maybe thinking that success can't be negated by a Force Field? You always count succeeding a roll as one Degree of Success, and you add to that the 10s digit of the target minus the 10s digit of the roll. So a roll of 45 on a 45 WS could be negated pretty easily by most Force Fields.

What I took from it is just that while you can cause multiple wound effects in one attack, you'll only get one +5 for the whole attack. I assume this turns into a +10 if one scores Righteous Fury.

I hate that the person that does most of the work gets nothing for it. If I shoot someone for 5 wounds I want to be rewarded with them going down, I do not want it to be the case that someone else then can just shoot him for 1 damage over defence and blow him apart. That is bad design in my mind as it robs player of the satisfaction of being able to take credit for their kills. It also makes things like ambushes rediculously hard to pull off unless you ournumber your ambushees 2 to 1. I think that the wound mechanic although a nice idea falls down in practice. I also think that the critical tables are far too big making it impossible for you to kill someone quickly even when it makes sense that you should do so.

For most enemies, that will kill them. Mooks only take 2 wounds before dying, or die to a crit, and an elite will still die instantly to a crit.

Forgot I posted this. Obviously I was not talking about mooks, its still bad design because to everyone else its a real possibility. The 2 wound mechanic is bad for completely different reasons as it robs players of any sense of gear progression as fast firing weapons will almost always be superior and most of the fastest stuff is the early stuff. I don't want to have to pull my autopistol out because my Meltagun is not up to the job of killing a guy.

You can argue that it makes ambushing mooks easier but there actually isn't a reason why a group of enemies can't be made of elites (good reason to ambush them if you ask me).

What I took from it is just that while you can cause multiple wound effects in one attack, you'll only get one +5 for the whole attack. I assume this turns into a +10 if one scores Righteous Fury.

Yeah, thats what it sounded to me as well.

And honestly, this feels like bending the whole logic of the situation to an extreme degree to accommodate a flawed system. Oh you took one bullet? That's gonna leave a lasting mark, Oh you took 10 bullets? Well, don't worry, you'll only feel as if it was one bullet in a few seconds. :/ Plus each hit not stacking of the previous ones in the same attack is also rather perverse.

What I took from it is just that while you can cause multiple wound effects in one attack, you'll only get one +5 for the whole attack. I assume this turns into a +10 if one scores Righteous Fury.

Yeah, thats what it sounded to me as well.

And honestly, this feels like bending the whole logic of the situation to an extreme degree to accommodate a flawed system. Oh you took one bullet? That's gonna leave a lasting mark, Oh you took 10 bullets? Well, don't worry, you'll only feel as if it was one bullet in a few seconds. :/ Plus each hit not stacking of the previous ones in the same attack is also rather perverse.

Geez, first you complain Full-Auto gives too many wounds, now you say it gives too few. Make up your mind - is it underpowered or nerfed?