I think D&D 3.5 also said you didn't need minis. And there are folks who swear it's true.

Its worth pointing out that DoSs/DoFs are calculated differently now too, its 1 DoS/DoF for passing the test, + difference in 10s digit between the target and the result.

The fact that it is possible to have more DoS than DoF does not balance- the maximum DoF is 10 (target number 02 or less, to an absolute minimum % chance of zero, rolls 100), while the maximum DoS is >10 (such as target number 132 rolls an 01, where the top-end target numbers have no absolute limit while the d% does). This is why d% game mechanics gradually break down- once target numbers exceed 100 the opposition must be on par or there is a distinct and pervasive lack of both balance in game play and Player challenge. The most effective ways to remedy this is with Characteristic caps of 70 or 80 and by disregarding target numbers over 100.

I might just mention there was no real need to confuse the masses by changing the dice-reading convention a third time. However, I did so in my own games: DoS = tens digit + 1; DoF = 10 - tens digit. This promotes the concept of the target number actually being a "target", the center of the bull's eye (so to speak). It is also mnemonically superior to the latest official convention. An equal chance of 10 DoS/DoF.

In the event of a tie when comparing Opposed Tests, the highest d% result wins.

The only break down occurs with weapon Jam targets- a conciliatory hiccup that results from weapon rules, easily overlooked.

I think D&D 3.5 also said you didn't need minis. And there are folks who swear it's true.

I've never once used miniatures for any of the 40k RPG games I've run over the last 5 years, and never had any issues with the rules suggesting you don't need miniatures. The rules aren't written with minis in mind.

Look, I believe you when you say you haven't used minis playing these games. I also believe the people who have told me they never used minis playing D&D 3.5. But it's not relevant. The issue is complexity of combat. When I say minis, I just mean some visual representation of who is where relative to who else. If you personally can keep that all in your head, great. Games that presume you are not going to use minis don't also presume players can keep extremely complex encounters solely in the theater or the mind.

There was mention of a lack of Sister background but I'm pretty sure there is a Ministorum background right? Shrine World, Ministorum, then Warrior for Militant (Battle Sisters), Chururgeon for Hospitaller, Sage for Dialogous, Hierophant for Famulous.

There was mention of a lack of Sister background but I'm pretty sure there is a Ministorum background right? Shrine World, Ministorum, then Warrior for Militant (Battle Sisters), Chururgeon for Hospitaller, Sage for Dialogous, Hierophant for Famulous.

More or less,. but theres a distinct lack of talents that help a PC be able to effectively describe themselves as a Sororitas.

Just grab Hatred (Heretics) and you've got a Sororitas Initiate. I do agree that the lack of Faith powers takes something special from them but perhaps that is better reflected as "flavor" for fate point expenditure anyway (something Shrine World promotes).

It does beg the question - given the lack of dedicated classes - just how they're going to approach the inevitable Sister expansion. An Adepta Soroitas background package I suppose? Could potentially be folded into an Schola Progenium background, though it wouldn't surprise me if they were kept separate.

I do agree that the lack of Faith powers takes something special from them but perhaps that is better reflected as "flavor" for fate point expenditure anyway (something Shrine World promotes).

For me this would certainly be the case. I quickly grew to dislike BoM's Space Magic with a passion as they broke with the fairly established ambiguity of these "miracles".

Just a matter of fluff interpretation and personal preferences, though.

Besides, a Novice would probably not be required to show the same amount of kickassery potentially expected from a fully-fledged Sister Militant. It is perhaps very possible and a viable/enjoyable solution to just handcraft a Shrine World Warrior and play the entire campaign as an "eternal Novice", without actually ever ranking up into the "problem zone". Leave the archetypical Battle Sister for whenever they make Ascension 2.0, or Deathwatch 2.0.

As an aside ... HA, and I was just told yesterday how DH "assumes nothing" about using miniatures ...

Because it doesn't.

BYE

This from the guy who thinks all RPG mechanics are interchangeable with d100 ... and that anything that is not d100 is "busy work."

BYE

first aid and medicine in general really should be knowledge-based, speaking from experience

The knowledge factor is built in as a matter of skill rank. When you need to actually use the knowledge, hand-eye coordination is more important than the ability to retain information or learn new concepts.

Howdy,

....Or not. Using the knowledge requires THE KNOWLEDGE.

Work with EMTs, nurses and doctors - no outlay of dextrous feats. It is a matter of experience and knowledge (perception doesn't hurt). NO real agility evidenced in the trauma intervention, wound care, or surgical outcome care that I have seen, although a strong back to lift patients and stretchers is always a plus.

It is a simplification, but most RPG systems model first aid-type and medical skills as knowledge-based and oriented, and that is a pretty accurate short hand.

You could argue that fine surgery requires some level of agile hands - one of the questions usually asked by interviewers for med school was what kind of hobbies the student had, with an eye for hobbies that required hand-eye coordination (musical instruments, painting, model-building, etc).

Cheers,

Ken

Look, I believe you when you say you haven't used minis playing these games. I also believe the people who have told me they never used minis playing D&D 3.5. But it's not relevant. The issue is complexity of combat. When I say minis, I just mean some visual representation of who is where relative to who else. If you personally can keep that all in your head, great. Games that presume you are not going to use minis don't also presume players can keep extremely complex encounters solely in the theater or the mind.

Howdy,

I guess it is a preference. My group has never used minis for our DH/RT/DW game, but another group that I play with does. I would *like* to use minis, just for the aesthetics, but I like playing in the living room as opposed to around the kitch table, and I fear that the minis will frag out combat and add to much focus on that facet.

Cheers,

Ken

iv only used minis in RT ship combat

first aid and medicine in general really should be knowledge-based, speaking from experience

The knowledge factor is built in as a matter of skill rank. When you need to actually use the knowledge, hand-eye coordination is more important than the ability to retain information or learn new concepts.

....Or not. Using the knowledge requires THE KNOWLEDGE.

You're talking in circles. Of course using a Skill requires knowledge -- that's why there is such a thing as Rank. In this game, there is no characteristic called Knowledge. And knowledge is not the same thing as Intelligence. Intelligence is not what you know (aside from "general knowledge") but rather your capacity to learn, reason, memorize, etc. An attempt to perform surgery or plan a course of treatment is based on Intelligence, hence Extended Care. First Aid in this game is about effectively but temporarily and most importantly quickly dealing with injury so Agility makes good sense there. Knowledge plays a role in both checks -- that role is represented by Skill Rank.

iv only used minis in RT ship combat

Same for me, those old BFG minis like to take a spin out of storage once in a while, relive the old glory of pulverizing xenos and heretics in the cold void of space.

Bizarrely ship combat was the one area we didn't ever map out. Now, I think it would have improved it if we did, as because we weren't using mapping not a great deal of attention was paid to the limits of what you could actually do with the ships, and so we had our absurdly good pilot doing rediculous stuff. If we had been using mapped combat more attention would have been paid to the actual rules of how quickly you could turn etc, and there would have been less complaints about the overpowered nature of the character in that situation (it eventually gets to a point where the character no longer sets the limit, but the ship. After this point extra ability just makes it more reliable, rather than getting stupidly manuevrable.

You're talking in circles. Of course using a Skill requires knowledge -- that's why there is such a thing as Rank. In this game, there is no characteristic called Knowledge. And knowledge is not the same thing as Intelligence. Intelligence is not what you know (aside from "general knowledge") but rather your capacity to learn, reason, memorize, etc. An attempt to perform surgery or plan a course of treatment is based on Intelligence, hence Extended Care. First Aid in this game is about effectively but temporarily and most importantly quickly dealing with injury so Agility makes good sense there. Knowledge plays a role in both checks -- that role is represented by Skill Rank.

Because first aid is a matter of problem solving, not agility, since it also covers the ability to improvise medical treatment without proper supplies.

Because first aid is a matter of problem solving, not agility, since it also covers the ability to improvise medical treatment without proper supplies.

Honestly, you need both intelligence and good hand eye coordination as well as reflexes to do first aid. The thing is, intelligence already has a pile of skills related to it, and so, when two stats are required for something, intelligence loses out. Of course, you could make it so having both helps (like an intelligence check to reduce penalties in situations where no proper equipment is available).

Knowing how to improvise medical treatment is the knowledge component, or Skill Rank, of a First Aid check.

Honestly, you need both intelligence and good hand eye coordination as well as reflexes to do first aid. The thing is, intelligence already has a pile of skills related to it, and so, when two stats are required for something, intelligence loses out. Of course, you could make it so having both helps (like an intelligence check to reduce penalties in situations where no proper equipment is available).

The problem with that is that one can successfully do first aid with minimal dexterity but not without both knowlege and problem solving ability.

Knowing how to improvise medical treatment is the knowledge component, or Skill Rank, of a First Aid check.

Except that knowing things falls under inteilligence, not agility. If you're using agility, it represents practice. Being able to sew a neat line does not make you ready to deal with a situation where a bomb has just blown your pack to hell and gone and you need to put a guy's leg back together with ductape and safety pins, correctly.

And agility doesn't have enough skills associated with it ?

Ultimately, this is fine- if the Chirurgeon's agility advance is lowered to "Low" instead of the "Very high" that it is now.-

first aid and medicine in general really should be knowledge-based, speaking from experience

The knowledge factor is built in as a matter of skill rank. When you need to actually use the knowledge, hand-eye coordination is more important than the ability to retain information or learn new concepts.

....Or not. Using the knowledge requires THE KNOWLEDGE.

You're talking in circles. Of course using a Skill requires knowledge -- that's why there is such a thing as Rank. In this game, there is no characteristic called Knowledge. And knowledge is not the same thing as Intelligence. Intelligence is not what you know (aside from "general knowledge") but rather your capacity to learn, reason, memorize, etc. An attempt to perform surgery or plan a course of treatment is based on Intelligence, hence Extended Care. First Aid in this game is about effectively but temporarily and most importantly quickly dealing with injury so Agility makes good sense there. Knowledge plays a role in both checks -- that role is represented by Skill Rank.

Howdy,

I would argue that performing first aid in a trauma setting requires reason, learning, etc, not dexterity or agile reflexes (except to avoid your co-workers). Both from a system perspective as well as real life (and real experience). However, since Agility is abstracted on page 11 to the point of being used to determine move distance, dodging enemy attacks, and "applying a sythskin spray to a wounded comerade", it is all a little ludicrous.

My 2-cents,

Ken

First Aid reads in part " quickly attempting to lessen the immediate damage" (my emphasis). Seems like the designers envisioned the skill being used in the heat of combat where a character's mind is distracted and success comes down to moving fast and with precision. Again, the Rank component represents the knowledge and experience that need to be applied with speed and precision.

So that works out that if my BS is 20 and I roll 19....thats 2 degrees of success?

And if your BS is 21, and you roll a 20, that's one degree of success. That can't be right.