I don't know... A ad mech mystic could be played a few different ways. I personally like the idea of playing it as heretek who is combines both machine and warp into one powerful servant. Something like the Acolytes of Abraxas probably. Wouldn't make sense in every group, but could still be a lot of fun.

Yeah, there's a lot of decent concepts for psyker Mechanicus characters, even if a lot of them are a little out there. The system accommodating stuff like this can hardly be a bad thing. People seem to forget that the GM has every right to deny a concept that doesn't fit in their game. Don't want AdMech mystics? Don't let people make them! Don't deprive other groups of the option by gutting it from the rules entirely.

It's a good point, this is probably one of the changes I think positively about.

It allows you to tinker with character concepts according to your own (and your group's) idea of the setting, instead of having to choose between sticking to the vision the authors had or coming up with a ton of houserules to work around the issue.

Even character archetypes we would ordinarily think are fairly established (such as the aforementioned Tech-Priests) receive wildly different treatment in the various novels etc; there's bound to be a lot of different interpretations around.

I could see this being an issue where you just can't please everyone, though. Some people already have a very solid idea in mind and will appreciate the freedom to realise it. Others would expect the book to inspire them, and will be disappointed by the lack of "fluff" that doesn't really push them anywhere. In this sense, this change probably appeals to people who are already more knowledgeable about 40k, whilst leaving behind those who would rather rely on the RPG to tell them what's what.

Sages get Tech Use and Intelligence cheap, they're basically your go-to for traditional techpriests. Chirugeon can also easily apply.

Tech-priest is so much more than 'tech use and int advancements for cheap'. The fact that this system doesn't support them any more than that is the failure I keep talking about, there is no flavor in this.... everyone is just a set of stats and advancement costs...

In my opinion none of the rules have come anywhere close to modelling tech priests as through the whole line of games technology has simply been hand-waved.

DH2b at least makes a bit of an attempt to factor in a purpose of the tech-priest template by having equipment and weapons degrade (and require maintenance).

I not, however, seeing anything beyond that to really integrate this vital element of the 40k background. So 'tech priests' will remain, i guess combat cyber-monsters and little else.

Also, as an aside, i really like the way that the DH2b modular chargen means you can create AdMech characters or tech priests that aren't simply cyberpsychotics. The vast majority of AdMech members are and should be 'metal-free' (as the older fluff makes clear). I like the idea that the augmented tech priests are simply a 'flesh is weak' factional cult within the AdMech.

I've always liked the view that cybernetics are basically an indication of influence within the Mechanicus. Most of your low ranking tech-adepts will maybe have some minor cranial implants, if that. A rank and file enginseer might have a mechadendrite and some basic implants. But affluent, long-loved Magi barely have any flesh LEFT, save for maybe about sixty percent of their original brain. Essentially, implants and augmentations are saved for those who are deemed worthy.

Okay, I agree with most of the things brought up here.

Untouchables, yeah, I agree, it kinda sucks.

I agree that the armour and Penetration stuff needs work.

There is also a lack of clubs and shields for Arbitrators.

Something that strikes me as an error is that weapons such as the Staff are Heavy, whereas Power Fists are Light.

Now, that makes sense: Power Fists are one-handed weapons.

However! Using a quarterstaff (or a silenced sniper rifle) makes the warband less Subtle. Wearing a Power Fist does not.

I would recommend the addition of a trait, similar to Unbalanced, such as 'Overt' to give a penalty to Subtlety. I would let Light and Heavy simply refer to hands required.

Oh, going over the Beta:

Armour is looking better. So are weapons.

However... we have Light Carapace Armour and Light Power Armour, but no regular varieties of either. Shouldn't Enforcer Armour be Light Carapace, or Enforcer Carapace? Maybe the values should then be switched with Flak, to make Flak the weaker option?

We can play Inquisitors, but we can't even get Stormtrooper Armour. Or Judge Armour.

Also, what effect do Fragmentation Rounds have now that Storm is gone?

Going over the beta updates! OMG! combat NOT fixed! Try again! Sniper Rifle still cannot down anything other than an Average opponent in one shot! Wound system re written to be even LESS lethal to PC's! FAIL! Some weapons given better damage values but new crit tables erase any gains. Come on FFG! Go back to OW ruleset for combat at least! This ain't working!

Equating non-master NPCs to 'average' is a bit of a poor judgement. Master is reserved for very important NPCs. Rogue Traders, cult leaders, Eldar warlocks, that kind of thing. Most daemons can go down in one shot from that rifle.

Equating non-master NPCs to 'average' is a bit of a poor judgement. Master is reserved for very important NPCs. Rogue Traders, cult leaders, Eldar warlocks, that kind of thing. Most daemons can go down in one shot from that rifle.

Your Point? A Heretic Rogue trader caught in the crosshairs of our Assassin Acolyte should still have some chance (However minor) of being chop suey! They are not! Further, Enemy assassins/snipers are a waste of time since they cannot even seriously injure an Acolyte with one shot! Read my post in '2.0 or 1.5' for more detail.

Equating non-master NPCs to 'average' is a bit of a poor judgement. Master is reserved for very important NPCs. Rogue Traders, cult leaders, Eldar warlocks, that kind of thing. Most daemons can go down in one shot from that rifle.

Your Point? A Heretic Rogue trader caught in the crosshairs of our Assassin Acolyte should still have some chance (However minor) of being chop suey! They are not! Further, Enemy assassins/snipers are a waste of time since they cannot even seriously injure an Acolyte with one shot! Read my post in '2.0 or 1.5' for more detail.

As far as NPCs are concerned, that's pretty simple: If you want your "Master" enemies to be one-shot, just consider them Elites. The only real point in using the Master signifier is if you want to set up an NPC to be a pretty big deal. I'm glad my story-centric NPCs aren't just randomly one-shotted before the players realize he's someone important.

Enemy assassins wouldn't be handled using combat rules, in my opinion. Combat rules are meant to represent an active combat from both parties, and are balanced to make that fun and engaging.

Just going to point out that Crippiling Shot + Eye of Vengence puts the max damage of a sniper rifle around the 25+Pb range. Thats pretty impressive, and if it hits the right location, won't be an instant kill, but will certainly require immediate medical attention or face a strong possibility of death.

Realize that Impact 25 to the head forces the target unconcious. Blood Loss doesn't tick down while unconcious.

Going over the beta updates! OMG! combat NOT fixed! Try again! Sniper Rifle still cannot down anything other than an Average opponent in one shot! Wound system re written to be even LESS lethal to PC's! FAIL! Some weapons given better damage values but new crit tables erase any gains. Come on FFG! Go back to OW ruleset for combat at least! This ain't working!

This is not directed entirely at you, Radwraith, but to everyone I've read complaining about the strength of a lot of weapons (particularly the sniper rifle).

No, you cannot one shot kill much of anything. You also could not do this in 1.0 against most things, or any of the other wh40k systems I've played, because that would be horrendously boring. I personally do not want a system where an easy to acquire weapon will be killing people off in a single shot left and right. That is boring, and it is unbalanced. If you're coming up against waves of enemies that you kill in one shot, your GM should probably adjust the difficulty of your encounters.

And if you and your fellow PCs make a plan to sneak into a well defended cultist hideout that hinges on sniping the guards from a distance, then that's a narrative use of the sniper rifle and should be handled as such by the GM.

There are/were balance issues with the weapons and armor. But the problem was not that nothing could kill people in one shot. A lack of weapons that are instant kills is not a balance issue. It's common sense. By real world standards, most of these weapons would kill an average person very quickly. A gun that fires rocket propelled explosive rounds would probably kill someone in one shot in real life. That does not mean the bolter sucks because it lacks the ability to do that. A powerful charged blast of plasma to the face would probably kill a real person. The plasma gun does not suffer because it is unable to do this. And FFG will not, I sincerely hope, change any weapons such that a GM is forced to house rule them so as not to have the PCs instant killing everything he throws their way short of a greater daemon.

Hear hear!

Game design should never be sacrificed for realism in a game.

Yeah, snipers killing a person with one shot is terrible game design.

Remind me what happens when someone with a power weapon hits you 3/4 times in one round of melee combat again?

Or full auto from a poxy auto gun even...hmm I am pretty sure that person they just walloped several times in two seconds just died.

One round of attacks means Sniper rifles are significantly weaker than all other weapon types, which is beyond stupid. they are severly limited in where they can be used effectively, none of the other weapons are.

See how you like getting shot 6 times at point blank range by a dual bolt pistol wielding gunslinger and tell me again how OP and terrible sniper rifles would be being able to do the same.

Yeah, snipers killing a person with one shot is terrible game design.

Remind me what happens when someone with a power weapon hits you 3/4 times in one round of melee combat again?

Or full auto from a poxy auto gun even...hmm I am pretty sure that person they just walloped several times in two seconds just died.

One round of attacks means Sniper rifles are significantly weaker than all other weapon types, which is beyond stupid. they are severly limited in where they can be used effectively, none of the other weapons are.

See how you like getting shot 6 times at point blank range by a dual bolt pistol wielding gunslinger and tell me again how OP and terrible sniper rifles would be being able to do the same.

If you're a Novice NPC, the high RoA will kill you. Then again given Update 1's seemingly oft-missed revision to how Novice NPCs die, a sufficiently powerful (more than twice defence value) damage shot is enough to kill them. Both types of weapons can kill 'mooks' in one attack. Elites? Both send them into worlds of pain, though the multiple attacks generally just set them up for pain rather than delivering. Masters? See above. The only real issue still is higher RF likelihood on high RoA and that's easily fixed by saying that only the first hit of an attack can inflict Righteous Fury, or something similar.

My post was in reference to " No, you cannot one shot kill much of anything. You also could not do this in 1.0 against most things, or any of the other wh40k systems I've played, because that would be horrendously boring."

Which is both patently untrue, and patently wrong.

All weapons can one shot in DH 1.0, a combat round is a combat round end of story.

A Nomad could do a max in one round of 35 damage with 1 RF roll

A Gunslinger with Mauler Bolt pistols could do a max in one round of 6 hits each one dealing 15 damage total 90 damage, with 6 RF rolls

A Melee build could with a PWR Fist and a Chainsword could do a max of 34 damage per hit max 102 damage with 3 RF rolls and 16 damage with 1 RF roll

A Heavy build could do with a Heavy Bolter Max (average 6 hits) 20 damage per hit, 120 max damage with 6 RF rolls.

A Psyker with a Force weapon...do I need to go on with this?

Do I really need to go on?

The game is balanced top down, not bottom up, yes a sniper is powerful early game, mid game hes been left behind, and this was DH1.0

In this system they are even worse, and how people can even try and justify it, I have no idea, you kind of people are the reason Psykers ended up the unholy mess they are in OnlyWar.

Sniper rifles and people who wish to build a mid to long range build character should not be penalized by shortsightedness, you cannot just look at the gun and go "it's to good early game nerf it to hell and back." and refuse to factor in how weak it will be midgame comparatively.

My post was in reference to " No, you cannot one shot kill much of anything. You also could not do this in 1.0 against most things, or any of the other wh40k systems I've played, because that would be horrendously boring."

Which is both patently untrue, and patently wrong.

All weapons can one shot in DH 1.0, a combat round is a combat round end of story.

A Nomad could do a max in one round of 35 damage with 1 RF roll

A Gunslinger with Mauler Bolt pistols could do a max in one round of 6 hits each one dealing 15 damage total 90 damage, with 6 RF rolls

A Melee build could with a PWR Fist and a Chainsword could do a max of 34 damage per hit max 102 damage with 3 RF rolls and 16 damage with 1 RF roll

A Heavy build could do with a Heavy Bolter Max (average 6 hits) 20 damage per hit, 120 max damage with 6 RF rolls.

A Psyker with a Force weapon...do I need to go on with this?

Do I really need to go on?

The game is balanced top down, not bottom up, yes a sniper is powerful early game, mid game hes been left behind, and this was DH1.0

In this system they are even worse, and how people can even try and justify it, I have no idea, you kind of people are the reason Psykers ended up the unholy mess they are in OnlyWar.

Sniper rifles and people who wish to build a mid to long range build character should not be penalized by shortsightedness, you cannot just look at the gun and go "it's to good early game nerf it to hell and back." and refuse to factor in how weak it will be midgame comparatively.

Thank You! Also, (Just to twist the proverbial blade a bit) A Sniper in OW with Eye Of Vengeance and Mighty shot talents could with a decent roll and Amputator ammo put upwards of 47 pts in a single shot! This is enough to potentially bring down any of the "Master" lvl opponents in BC with a tb of 4 or less! (Notice how I slipped in cross compatible foes?). And Yeah...The lack of compatiblity is still a huge deal breaker for me!

Those enemies that are plot critical enough that you don't want to die have fate-points, so ultimately, the same thing that this system emulates [near survival] can be left at the discretion of the GM based on the scene, the "importance" of the npc, the circumstances of the shot while remaining within the bound of the rules.

All weapons can one shot in DH 1.0, a combat round is a combat round end of story.

A Nomad could do a max in one round of 35 damage with 1 RF roll

A Gunslinger with Mauler Bolt pistols could do a max in one round of 6 hits each one dealing 15 damage total 90 damage, with 6 RF rolls

...6 RF? Wow, I must suck at rolling dice compared to you.

Also, I feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves with Nomads and Mauler bolt pistols. Let's stick with the respective core books. So we're going hunting rifle and sniper rifle. We'll assume higher level enemies, since we're talking max damage and as we both know a righteous fury does instant kill low level NPCs in 2.0. Let's be generous and give this guy flak armor (and we're shooting him in the body, so AP 5) and a TB of 4. He's no mook.

Hunting rifle max damage, assuming no bonus RF damage, is 33 damage 0 pen. That comes down to 24 damage. Ouch. That will put a lot of people into crits, no doubt, and if he has 15 wounds or fewer (and no True Grit) he's outright dead. So with THREE righteous furies we can one shot kill a top level NPC with 15 wounds or fewer.

Sniper rifle max damage is 20, pen 3 (for an average rank one character), -6 from his 2 armor and 4 TB and we're at 16 on the wound chart (Dazed and Weakened (2) for 1d10-Sb rounds...ouch). And since you did two righteous furies the target gets a +20 to his next wound result. So no, you can't one shot kill someone, you can only one shot grievously wound them and then wait for a stiff breeze to roll in and finish them off. Oh, and it's Vengeance (8), so it's 3 times as likely to get a RF anyway. Which means if we are talking mooks, they're 3 times more likely to be instant killed by the sniper rifle.

Remind me what happens when someone with a power weapon hits you 3/4 times in one round of melee combat again?

Or full auto from a poxy auto gun even...hmm I am pretty sure that person they just walloped several times in two seconds just died.

One round of attacks means Sniper rifles are significantly weaker than all other weapon types, which is beyond stupid. they are severly limited in where they can be used effectively, none of the other weapons are.

See how you like getting shot 6 times at point blank range by a dual bolt pistol wielding gunslinger and tell me again how OP and terrible sniper rifles would be being able to do the same.

Yeah, getting hit 6 times more from bolt rounds can really hurt.

And the autogun is a pretty different beast. Against an average NPC it's not even going to hurt them 20% of the time (assuming defence value of 5 you'd need a 3 or higher on each damage roll to get any damage at all), and a lot of the NPCs are even tougher. Don't tell me the Autogun is oh so much better when an unarmed Merchant can't be hurt by it 40% of the time (and forget the autopistol...that merchant is nigh on invincible in the face of that thing).

Obviously we have different philosophies about how weapon power should work in the game, and that's fine. But I do think it's not unreasonable to have a weapon with a 400m range (thus allowing you to be safely away from combat for the most part) not be on par with dual wielding point blank bolt pistols or 3 hits from a power weapon.