This topic needs its own thread to get FFG's attention.

I am a devoted "Dark Curse" player but I very firmly believe that "Dark Curse" should be allowed to be targeted by Blaster Turret because:

1. The Rebel player pays one Focus just to attack with the Blaster Turret and THEN decides on a target. "Dark Curse" isn't yet the target of the attack and his ability should only kick in once he has been targeted. The Blaster Turret can then fire at "Dark Curse" but then cannot use Focus to modify any dice. No re-wording or re-printing or errata is needed for this - just a clarification in the FAQ.

2. It simply doesn't make sense in-universe that a blaster turret cannot fire at a TIE Fighter when any other weapon can fire at the same target. We all shred a little of our suspension-of-disbelief for game mechanics but if the rules are so outlandish as to make no sense in an in-universe way, players become annoyed and frustrated.

This happened in the Star Wars Miniatures game when Blaster Barrage was combined with Accurate Shot and Twin Attack and suddenly a single character with a single blaster pistol could shoot every enemy it had line of sight to twice whether it was twentry enemies or a hundred or a thousand or a million! Seriously, how is this character capable of firing off an almost unlimited number of shots.

I actually saw this get abused in games many times. It was a game mechanic that made no sense in-universe and led to very unfun power-gaming. I don't want such an unsportsperson-like game mechanic in this game.

Whether or not this is clarified (which it SHOULD be! - no re-printing, re-wording, or errata required - just clarification), I WILL allow my opponents to target my "Dark Curse" with their Blaster Turrets because of the two reasons I gave above.

I put these in the "General Forums" because it's not a "Rules Question", its a "Rules Statement".

I also don't like the rule that disallows allied players from talking to one another. It's ridiculous - what, am I jamming their comms channels? In the first two video batreps I posted in these forums you can see that I was playing against two allied players (my friends, Kyle and Scott) and when they asked if they could confer I told them to go right ahead.

Sorry, rant over. Hulk returning to Bruce Banner now.

Allied players can talk to each other. They just need to do it in front of their opponents

Allied players can talk to each other. They just need to do it in front of their opponents

So, instead of blocking their comm chatter I'm listening in on it. Seems unfair as they cannot access the inside of my head to see what my pilots are thinking. I would not insist their show me their dials just because they showed each other or demand to know what their plan was just because they were trying to come up with one.

Allied players can talk to each other. They just need to do it in front of their opponents

Correct.

But I do take issue with that. Real fighters use comm frequencies that their enemies can't hear. Sure the enemy may be able to crack the scrambled frequency with a little effort after the battle is over. But in combat, it makes sense that allies would be able to communicate with each other without the enemy hearing them and knowing their plan.

Wedge: "Biggs, break to port now!"

Vader: "O Biggs is going to break to port, so now i know where he will be and can shoot him down"

Pretty silly in my opinion.

As for Dark Curse, i agree with the OPs statements. The player is spending the focus token to use the Blaster Turret, not to modify any results related to the attack on DC. The attack on DC takes place after the spending of the focus token. I too think this should be clarified

As for Dark Curse, i agree with the OPs statements. The player is spending the focus token to use the Blaster Turret, not to modify any results related to the attack on DC. The attack on DC takes place after the spending of the focus token. I too think this should be clarified

We are adding a step not in the rules 'Declare Weapon System'. When according to the rules you 1) Declare Target 2) Roll Attack Die.

So, though I would have agreed with you until the FAQ, now I believe that 'Declare Weapon' isn't a specific step but part of Step 1, i.e. I need to know the range and arc to choose my target and decide on my weapon.

The timing is fine and the FAQ is fine.

I agree, Dark Curse should be Blaster Turret target-able.

I am really glad I read this post. I will allow others to in the future to target my DC and insist that I can Target their DC. It seems to me that the OP was correct. The blaster Turret is spending a token to use it. THEN he has to decide who to attack.

Good insight and good to know!

As for Dark Curse, i agree with the OPs statements. The player is spending the focus token to use the Blaster Turret, not to modify any results related to the attack on DC. The attack on DC takes place after the spending of the focus token. I too think this should be clarified

We are adding a step not in the rules 'Declare Weapon System'. When according to the rules you 1) Declare Target 2) Roll Attack Die.

So, though I would have agreed with you until the FAQ, now I believe that 'Declare Weapon' isn't a specific step but part of Step 1, i.e. I need to know the range and arc to choose my target and decide on my weapon.

The timing is fine and the FAQ is fine.

Although this make a good point to! Oh which to do...

I think it's more complex than than you're giving it credit for.

Which comes first in the attack sequence? Paying costs or choosing a target? (if you can't answer this - that's OK since it's fuzzy, but that's the problem)

The way the FAQ was worded it really sounds like declaring a target comes first, then costs are paid with respect to which weapon your using (which is why Dark Curse cannot be targeted attacked* by anything that costs focus). Also, paying costs are part of the attack itself (think about how Deadeye + Homing Missiles (using focus) versus Dark Curse differs from the Blaster Turret). But, failure to meet conditions means just 'going back' and starting that step over again (see all of the checks for barrel roll, boost, etc) - so you just can't do that attack.

If you want to think about it thematically: Dark Curse is such a nuisance that a pilot can't effectively fire the blaster turret and dodge Dark Curse at the same time. The Rebel pilot has to concentrate so hard on flying with Dark Curse around that he has no way to concentrate on firing weapons more than just casually.

That said - you and your friends can play it however you like. But if you and I play at gencon... then we follow the rules as FFG has printed them.

Finally, and unfortunately, the way that 'costs' are paid is fuzzy. There's no mechanic in the game that describes the 'cost' for using a weapon (it's all done in the description text; the [Target Lock]/[Focus] descriptor is just a requirement, not cost) and there is no real explanation in the rules on when costs are paid. Hopefully if there is ever a revised version, they make the costs of using a weapon keywords/icons/whatever so the costs are specifically called out and they are given a step in the attack sequence (probably as a sub-part to declaring a target).

*edit - Just to clarify my thought process a bit... Dark Curse can be targeted all day long by attacks that have a focus component, but if you can't spend the focus the attack gets aborted and you're back at the declare target step (this is using the same 'check to see if you can do it' mindset as the maneuver-template based actions).

I am really glad I read this post. I will allow others to in the future to target my DC and insist that I can Target their DC. It seems to me that the OP was correct. The blaster Turret is spending a token to use it. THEN he has to decide who to attack.

Good insight and good to know!

Except the FAQ says otherwise, without much explanation behind it. Most of the other FAQ responses seem to be seeded in the rules somewhere, but like I said in my previous post - there is nothing that says when costs are paid (except in the weapon text) which means you have to be already performing the attack to get to the weapon text and thus you've already targeted Dark Curse.

I think it's more complex than than you're giving it credit for.

Which comes first in the attack sequence? Paying costs or choosing a target? (if you can't answer this - that's OK since it's fuzzy, but that's the problem)

The way the FAQ was worded it really sounds like declaring a target comes first, then costs are paid with respect to which weapon your using (which is why Dark Curse cannot be targeted by anything that costs focus). Also, paying costs are part of the attack itself (think about how Deadeye + Homing Missiles (using focus) versus Dark Curse differs from the Blaster Turret). But, failure to meet conditions means just 'going back' and starting that step over again (see all of the checks for barrel roll, boost, etc) - so you just can't do that attack.

If you want to think about it thematically: Dark Curse is such a nuisance that a pilot can't effectively fire the blaster turret and dodge Dark Curse at the same time. The Rebel pilot has to concentrate so hard on flying with Dark Curse around that he has no way to concentrate on firing weapons more than just casually.

That said - you and your friends can play it however you like. But if you and I play at gencon... then we follow the rules as FFG has printed them.

Finally, and unfortunately, the way that 'costs' are paid is fuzzy. There's no mechanic in the game that describes the 'cost' for using a weapon (it's all done in the description text; the [Target Lock]/[Focus] descriptor is just a requirement, not cost) and there is no real explanation in the rules on when costs are paid. Hopefully if there is ever a revised version, they make the costs of using a weapon keywords/icons/whatever so the costs are specifically called out and they are given a step in the attack sequence (probably as a sub-part to declaring a target).

I am really glad I read this post. I will allow others to in the future to target my DC and insist that I can Target their DC. It seems to me that the OP was correct. The blaster Turret is spending a token to use it. THEN he has to decide who to attack.

Good insight and good to know!

"Q: Can “Dark Curse” be the target of a

secondary weapon attack that requires the

attacker to spend a focus token?

A: No."

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/faq/X-Wing-FAQ.pdf

Except the FAQ says otherwise, without much explanation behind it. Most of the other FAQ responses seem to be seeded in the rules somewhere, but like I said in my previous post - there is nothing that says when costs are paid (except in the weapon text) which means you have to be already performing the attack to get to the weapon text and thus you've already targeted Dark Curse.

You also make a great point. I guess for now follow the rules. If and when they release a new ruling then just follow that. This was very well described. Thanks!

Although this make a good point to! Oh which to do...

ScaperCrawford, you have got to change your username to "WaffleWaffleFlipFlipFenceSitter". You seriously make me laugh, dude!

I think it's more complex than than you're giving it credit for.

[...]

We agree but...

I like to look at things simply and even though I was on the other side of this issue. When the FAQ came out I readily adopted the new ruling.

There is no Declare Weapon step. Remember when you measure range (also in the new FAQ) you DON'T have to commit to a target (or a weapon by implication). Why would you spend your focus to use a weapon that wasn't in range? You would have to do that if it was before the Attack Steps.

Spending the focus is right in the middle of the Attack Phases/Steps which isn't allowed on Dark Curse.

Simple solution for a simple mind <--- referring to me.

I am a devoted "Dark Curse" player but I very firmly believe that "Dark Curse" should be allowed to be targeted by Blaster Turret because:

Just checking, but this is the yet-to-be-released Blaster Turret? The perhaps-has-rules-we-don't-know-about Blast Turret?

Remember when you measure range (also in the new FAQ) you DON'T have to commit to a target (or a weapon by implication). Why would you spend your focus to use a weapon that wasn't in range?

You aren't committed to a target just by measuring, but you must select a target before going on to Step 2. Once you do so, you have the defender.

Remember when you measure range (also in the new FAQ) you DON'T have to commit to a target (or a weapon by implication). Why would you spend your focus to use a weapon that wasn't in range?

You aren't committed to a target just by measuring, but you must select a target before going on to Step 2. Once you do so, you have the defender.

Thank you, that is what I was so poorly trying to say.

Furthermore selecting the target still has not committed you to a specific weapon, while both must be selected/committed before the attacker before goes to Step 2.

RealGenius, yes we are discussing both Pilots that are released and upgrades that are not and I definitely see the humor in that. But sadly there is enough info, including the new and newer FAQ, that some already disagree with the rules.

As I said I was on the other side of this issue until the FAQ and gladly I can justify it both thematically and 'as per the rules'. There is another that definitely rubs me wrong but I will accept it 'as per the rules' though I don't see the thematic logic. Sigh...

Happy gaming...

I don't agree with all FFG rulings. So I will just take this one and enjoy running Dark Curse around, flaunting his focus immunity until there is further change on this.

I am a devoted "Dark Curse" player but I very firmly believe that "Dark Curse" should be allowed to be targeted by Blaster Turret because:

Just checking, but this is the yet-to-be-released Blaster Turret? The perhaps-has-rules-we-don't-know-about Blast Turret?

The FAQ already applies to Deadeye. And you are right that it is POSSIBLE that there are unknown rules about the Blaster Turret in the HWK expansion. But I really doubt it.

With the blaster turret issue applying to Dark Curse whereby you can not use it against him due to the current FAQ, I try to lean away from the rules timing issues being presented to take a look at the larger picture here. It's a "cant see the forest through the trees" scenario with this ruling. Let me explain.

Dark curse came out in wave 1, where the only thing a focus token could do would be to assign dice during an attack or defense roll but only applied during an attack on him. So his ability, as of wave 1, was you could not assign attack dice to hits nor reroll them. That's a cool ability, not game breaking at all and ups the challenge aspect.

In wave 2, Deadeye comes out where you can spend a focus token to launch a missile (so you could still get the rerolls from TL) but now the FAQ says that you can't use this against him. So now DC has no assigning or rerolls and blocks launching with a focus token (which doesn't do anything anyways because the TL wouldn't be abled to be rerolled anyways as per DC's original ability from Wave 1)

Also, Stealth device came out and made it almost a guaranteed combo, like PTL with Soontir, for DC. DC's abilities are not game breaking but starting to look a little weird.

In wave 3, Blaster Turret comes out for the HWK 290. Now, this weapon system is the primary weapon of choice for the HWK 290 (just as the Ion is for the Y-Wing but lets not get into that argument) as its only attack rating of 1 means it HAS to supplement with a secondary weapon system if it would be a decent threat on the board.

But hold on. DC's ability now becomes no assigning/rerolling of dice, no focus launching, and no blaster turrets firing.

Furthermore, when someone (and I know someone is going to do it) plays 4 HWK 290 with blaster turrets, all the imperial player would have to field is Dark curse with stealth and no other ships...

Why?

Because the current ruling means that blaster turrets can't be used against him so HWK 290's have to use their pitiful 1 ATK. I don't know about you but I haven't won many engagements rolling only one dice for an attack vs 3, let alone 4, defence dice. What this ruling does is effectively create an imbalance against the HWK 290 in a way that doesn't make sense. New ship with cool new weapon turret, just don't fire it at that Dark Curse cause you can't.

FFG game developers, try it out. 4 HWK 290's with blaster turrets vs Dark Curse with Stealth. Use you own current FAQ rules. Tell me how fun it is...

Some might say why are you surprised that a squad of four freighters were shot down by a single fighter.

If you deploy freighters, even armed ones, without cover this might even be expected.

Just me two cents...

I will just Copy-Paste what I wrote in the other thread about this issue. For those too lazy to read I completely agree with the OP and this is just the reasons why:

Exactly this. And I also like to play Dark Curse. I am fine if Deadeye can't be used to target him, you can still simply TL and fire.

But the Blaster turret pays the cost of a Focus Token to be fired at all and I won't even go into the timing issues that implies vs. Dark Curse. I simply can't understand why this ruling was made. after all you don't use any reroll on Dark Curse. Just rule it differently, no wordings have to be changed. and everything would be fine. Dark Curse would still be a strong pick in the current meta.

Don't get me wrong, I am less concerned about the lengthy timing discussion here than with game balancing. Dark Curse HARD COUINTERS Blaster turrets, and he is really cheap for 16 points. Is that really balanced or even intended?? I can hardly believe this!

With Y-Wings it is an issue, but at least they still have the same chance as always to down Dark Curse, BUT someone has also brought up the situation where you fly a Rebel squad with 4 HWK and Blaster turrets. How are they supposed to kill Dark Curse. With one attack per ship, he can just evade all day. Impossible odds really... This alone might be a reason to change the FAQ again.

Seriously FFG I am asking you why should a rebel player be punished that hard for playing a 4 HWK squad with blaster turrets? Please tell me, how would this squad be able to win even if there was ONLY Dark Curse against them.

I challenge you to tell people that want to play such a List on a tournament why they should autolose as soon as they encounter this one 16 point ship without any upgrades. Because that's exactly what is happening! Someone better at math than me could perhaps calculate the odds of 4 HWK without any secondary weapon hitting Dark Curse (assuming all 4 even can line up a shot). I bet chances are quite minimal and qualify for the term "autolose".

(Besides it is a really stupid marketing strategy: FFG makes the new ship with the new upgrade so horrible it can not only not win against a simple Wave 1 ship everyone already has, no they make it literally impossible to even shoot the weapon at the ship which makes no sense whatsoever... Is that supposed to make people buy the HWK? I strongly doubt it. In other games I have seen new lists power creep older lists, but in this case it is just the contrary...)

Some might say why are you surprised that a squad of four freighters were shot down by a single fighter.

If you deploy freighters, even armed ones, without cover this might even be expected.

Just me two cents...

Even assuming the HWK was a "freighter" fluffwise like you say.

Why can a weapon not shoot a ship fluffwise? Does that make sense??

I am also aware that in a game like X-Wing, there will always be squads that have better odds at beating certain other squads or said differently that counter them. But the case with Dark Curse and the HWK with Blaster turret is simply ridiculous. And why should you not play 4 HWK? It might not be the very best list ever, but at least it should have a fair chance against any other list, not only against any other list but the ones with Dark Curse.

Most games are not won by fair chances.

Everyone one has the same chance, opportunity, to build and field their squad. Then they have the same opportunity to maneuver on the playing surface. But in torneys most are hopping for a better build that gives them and advantage.

Yes advantage, not balance. Nothing stops you from fielding 4 HWk just like nothing stops you from fielding all Advanced Ties. But your odds of wining drops significantly. If you fielded 4 Senator Shuttles then even more so since that isn't armed at all. What would be 'fair' about that? If I wanted a greater change of wining I would choose other craft.

P.S. As I whole I agree that is does seem illogical that DC can even be targeted. But it is not so. We can always make a house rule and say we're Play X-Wing with our own rules while we hope FFG sees our side of the argument. haha

I am sorry but a lot of what you write makes no sense.

4 senator shuttles? The shuttle is not even a standard ship and it is only played in a special scenario, so you can't make a list with all Senator shuttles.

Also, tell me any matchup that is unwinnable for 4 Advanced Ties. There is none. You can win any matchup with them if you are skilled and lucky enough. It might not be an ideal list, but it has a fair chance against anything.

But with 4 HWK with blaster turrets you can practically not win against Dark Curse, this matchup is unwinnable unless he flies off the board or eats a crit from an Asteroid (even more if he has a stealth device). Even theoretically the chances are really low to score even one hit against him. So there is a big difference between this case and ANY other case in the X-Wing Game.

Also besides that fact, a 4 HWK Blaster squad is not really a bad choice IF there was not the possibility to 100% counter it with one 16 point ship. If we assume that the Unnamed HWK costs less than Roark Garnet (17 or 18 points I assume), you can play 4 with Blaster turrets and Recon specialists. This would be quite a strong squad and make perfect sense. But if the ruling is not changed, you will never be able to field this because of the possibility of someone fielding Dark Curse. This can't be FFG's intention if you ask me...