LOL Good job. Nice to see some one there is reading this stuff. BTW I am always willing to check any FAQ in Beta before you post it.

In my experience, the best way to get a company's attention is to create an unofficial FAQ.

So that just leaves these points raised by Buhallin:

Q: Can “Dark Curse” be the target of a secondary weapon attack that requires the attacker to spend a focus token?
A: No.

Concern: Dark Curse's ability starts with "When defending..." Most secondary weapons say "Discard XXX to perform this attack." The new errata to page 10 clarifies an attack as being all 7 steps. Assuming that we have to discard before the attack, Dark Curse shouldn't be defending yet, so it should be legal to spend the token. The actual timing and rules for how to handle secondary weapons in an attack is sort of a jumble right now.

Q: If a ship barrel rolls or boosts onto a proximity mine token, does the token detonate?
A: Yes.

Concern: Proximity Mine says "When a ship executes a maneuver, if its base or movement template overlaps this token..." Boosting and Barrel Rolling aren't maneuvers, so how can they trigger the detonation?

Dark Curse issue and broader issues with secondary weapon selection.

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Could we resolve this by amending the attack rules to be:

1 - Select weapon

The attacker choose the weapon with which he will attack.

2 - Declare Target/Pay Costs

Prox Mines vs Boost/Barrel Roll

Two options come to mind here, either Boost and Barrel Roll are errated to be manuevers, or Prox Mine is errated to trigger when a ship either completes a maneuver or an action which resulted in a movement template overlapping the prox. mine template. I'm not really sure which option I prefer, the Prox. Mine errata is probably less disruptive.

Will we see two James Kniffen interventions in one thread?

On the first, "Declare Target" is definitely part of the attack, because an attack is Steps 1-7.

I think what everyone is REALLY asking is... in what step is declare weapon.

Based on the FAQ, it seems to imply that it is inherent (part of) to Steps 1 AND 2.

Step 1 Declare Target includes determining range, firing arc, etc... then based on this information one chooses the appropriate weapon system and spends any required appropriate token (if allowed). This of course is needed (what weapon and range) when you move to Step 2 what is Roll Dice.

Logically and trying to keep a simple approach there is no timing issue or Rules conundrum.

Just my two cents.

Another question, if you give me a penny for my thoughts and I put in my two cents... who gets the change?

@Buhallin

With all due respect, I don’t think your interpretation of the Dark Curse rule is correct, going by what you have explained the rule is affective on or after the 4^th combat phase however by that point the attacker cannot modify his roll at all, that already was supposed to happen on phase 3; remember that all combat phases have to be resolve in order, (no backsies)

The interpretation imho refers to the fact that Dark Curse is being attack, hence his ability applies on combat phase 3, in that way no matter which pilot, weapon or crew the attacker is using it will be limited to modify his attack by not spending focus tokens or reroll attack dice.

RodTheCid.

The FAQ states:

So this indicates his ability is not limited to Phase/Step 3.

It may be more straightforward than that. The Blaster Turret requires you to have a Focus, in the same way that Missiles and PTs require Target Locks. So, if you have a Focus token you are allowed to shoot, and select Dark Curse as a target. However, at that point you are required to spend the Focus token in order to perform the attack. We have established with Homing Missiles vs. other missiles that the Target Lock requirement (on the header) is not the same as the requirement to expend the Target Lock during the attack. Dark Curse prevents the expenditure of that Focus Token, so you are unable to perform the attack.

This seems to answer the timing issues, while being consistent with previous timing procedures or requiring additional rules. We are just more specific about the separation between the header requirements and the requirements listed after the header.

@commuterzombie and Ken:

There are any number of ways the attack timing could be presented to resolve the dispute. Either of your suggestions would work, I like zombie's explicit pay cost a bit better than Ken's, if only because it would avoid the "activates twice" idea, which has all sorts of bad impacts. My preferred solution would be to put weapon declaration and cost paying as Step 0, and errata DC to not be targetable by Attack (Focus) weapons if that's what is desired. Or better yet, just accept that he can be hit by the Blaster Turret.

So it can be fixed - especially now that we know what an "attack" actually is, it's a relatively minor fix that's left. But that's kinda not the point WE can't do it. Right now, if we stick to what we know plus standard ability-game concepts, there's a contradiction in the rules and rulings that we have. I'm very much hoping that FFG will do something about it, but the downside of getting an actual response on the ClusterGunner issue is that I feel like they've now seen this, and chose to do nothing about the other questions I had.

So, left to our own devices, I intend to play secondary selection as happening in Step 2, and just handwave at the problem with the timing on turrets and other targeting restrictions and say "Of COURSE they work". I think this is actually pretty safe, as I can't imagine a TO in the world who would rule otherwise. But I still don't like it

@Buhallin

With all due respect, I don’t think your interpretation of the Dark Curse rule is correct, going by what you have explained the rule is affective on or after the 4^th combat phase however by that point the attacker cannot modify his roll at all, that already was supposed to happen on phase 3; remember that all combat phases have to be resolve in order, (no backsies)

The interpretation imho refers to the fact that Dark Curse is being attack, hence his ability applies on combat phase 3, in that way no matter which pilot, weapon or crew the attacker is using it will be limited to modify his attack by not spending focus tokens or reroll attack dice.

I believe your opinion is correct and I am a devoted "Dark Curse" player. "Dark Curse" should be allowed to be targeted by Blaster Turret because:

1. The Rebel player pays one Focus just to attack with the Blaster Turret and THEN decides on a target. "Dark Curse" isn't yet the target of the attack and his ability should only kick in once he has been targeted. The Blaster Turret can then fire at "Dark Curse" but then cannot use Focus to modify any dice. No re-wording or re-printing or errata is needed for this - just a clarification in the FAQ.

2. It simply doesn't make sense in-universe that a blaster turret cannot fire at a TIE Fighter when any other weapon can fire at the same target. We all shred a little of our suspension-of-disbelief for game mechanics but if the rules are so outlandish as to make no sense in an in-universe way, players become annoyed and frustrated. This happened in the Star Wars Miniatures game when Blaster Barrage was combined with Accurate Shot and Twin Attack and suddenly a single character with a single blaster pistol could shoot every enemy it had line of sight to twice whether it was twentry enemies or a hundred or a thousand or a million!

It was a game mechanic that made no sense in-universe and led to very unfun power-gaming.

2. This happened in the Star Wars Miniatures game when Blaster Barrage was combined with Accurate Shot and Twin Attack and suddenly a single character with a single blaster pistol could shoot every enemy it had line of sight to twice whether it was twentry enemies or a hundred or a thousand or a million!

This sounds like an awesome ability. I am waiting for the X-Wing equivalant ala The Last Star Fighter's ultimate ability.

It's been one of those days; the Rebellion in retreat Tie's always annoying us. I've racked up my 4th kill so far on this Blaster turret. Wait, here's another kill. Ready... Aim... oh, he moved! Ready... Aim... Again!!! What's up with this guy. I just need to focus and squeeze the trigger. He's just one target; I've already nailed 4 today. Focus, Focus, man my head hurts. Come on man just FOCUS!

This isn't working, WAIT he's firing. All I need to do is foc................

It's been one of those days; the Rebellion in retreat Tie's always annoying us. I've racked up my 4th kill so far on this Blaster turret. Wait, here's another kill. Ready... Aim... oh, he moved! Ready... Aim... Again!!! What's up with this guy. I just need to focus and squeeze the trigger. He's just one target; I've already nailed 4 today. Focus, Focus, man my head hurts. Come on man just FOCUS!

This isn't working, WAIT he's firing. All I need to do is foc................

HA. And Scene....

At least one TIE isn't taking crap from the plucky rebels and their amazing equipment

I don't see a problem if it's just that one TIE. Plenty of other things can hurt him and he's in the weakest fighter in the game.

So, why would you ever play without DC at this point? Because, if I can kill every other ship you have with a weapon other than BT leaving only BT weapons on the table........once I have done this DC can only be destroyed with Vader crew or flying off the table. You will never see an all Y-wing BT squad win, unless they are able to get naked torpedoes to work. ............ Right?

Not exactly. In one of the battle reports I read somewhere an older gentleman won a Kessel Run tournament quite handily with a few naked Y-wings. Two attack dice isn't any worse than a TIE fighter. "Dark Curse" isn't invincible, just hard to kill.

EDIT: My point is that a Y-wing still has a chance to kill "Dark Curse." Now if all that were remaining were HWK-290's with Blaster Turrets...that's another story.

With all the Dark Curse discussion: where does it state that an attacker first chooses the weapon he wants to attack with and then declares the target?

If the attacker declares the target first and then the weapon he (or she) wants to fire upon the target, there would be no discussion.

Nurgle23> You are correct. No where does it say 'choose the weapon then declare the target'. And that both logically and thematically seems a bit out of sort. As even messes with the flow of the new FAQ that states you don't even have to commit to a target when you're measure range.

This is a solution (debate, concern, worry) looking for a problem that simply doesn't exist.

With all the Dark Curse discussion: where does it state that an attacker first chooses the weapon he wants to attack with and then declares the target?

If the attacker declares the target first and then the weapon he (or she) wants to fire upon the target, there would be no discussion.

When declaring a target, you need to pick a target that is within range and in your firing arc. If they are outside of your firing arc, the idea is that you must select a weapon before you can shoot at them with a weapon that is not dependant on the firing arc. If selecting the weapon is during or after step 1, then you may only fire turret weapons at targets in your firing arc(s).

With all the Dark Curse discussion: where does it state that an attacker first chooses the weapon he wants to attack with and then declares the target?

If the attacker declares the target first and then the weapon he (or she) wants to fire upon the target, there would be no discussion.

You're right - it doesn't say you pick the target, then the weapon. It also doesn't say you pick the weapon, and then the target. But:

- If you pick the target before the weapon, turrets don't work

- If you pick the weapon before the target, the Dark Curse ruling doesn't work

The issue is not JUST about Dark Curse. It's that the Dark Curse ruling and certain secondary weapons set up a paradoxical situation where it is impossible to define a single, consistent time for weapon selection without breaking at least one of the cards/rulings.

I apologize but I don't see your point. One does not need a hard and fast specific timeline; this would/may only serve to complicate things and create unnecessary future issues, .

You're point:
- If you pick the target before the weapon, turrets don't work isn't correct.

The FAQ states:

Q: At what times is a player allowed to measure range?

A: A player may measure with the range ruler at the following times:

• Before committing to an action that includes measuring range, such as acquiring a target lock.

• As part of declaring the target of an attack, before committing to that target.

• As part of resolving an effect that includes measuring range.

Emphasized for clarity. If you select a target and it is either out of range, out of range of the weapon systems available, out of firing arc,etc... then you simply don't commit to that target and choose another. Turrets work as they always have. Nothing new.

Also the Core Rules on Page 10 states:

So if you forced one into unnecessarily choose which came first the chicken or the egg. I'd might say that based on FAQ and Rules I might say on of two things

1) The target declaration comes first or....

2) ALL of these factors are part of the pilots decision making process so they are all simultaneously taking effect.

Furthermore, your other point:

- If you pick the weapon before the target, the Dark Curse ruling doesn't work, also not true.

Again you've chosen a target and Dark Curse is NOW the defender, now your considering range, arc, etc... You choose the Blaster Turret (which isn't even out but there is and FAQ). Oh you can't use a weapon that requires spending a focus. So...

A) Choose another target.

B) Choose another weapon system.

Finally, one would seldom if ever select a weapon and look for a target and say 'Darn, there plenty of blaster targets but I want to use my turret so I'll pass'. A pilot uses all this information to select the weapons system and target. He just can't use all weapon systems on all targets all of the time.

No paradox, no problem, no issues.

Buhallin> P.S. Cool blog, good articles and great insights.

Thank you for your contributions. I wish I had the mind for that.

Sorry to take the other side on this one, I like your points, just don't see the problem or the issue would apply without creating other issues.

Thanks again,

One does not need a hard and fast specific timeline; this would/may only serve to complicate things and create unnecessary future issues, .

I think this is the key point where we disagree.

We should have a hard and fast timeline. That's how these rules systems work, and the lack of one is what's creating this issue. You have a flow of events, with things triggering at specific times. There are certain fundamental rules that govern these sorts of systems, which include rather important concepts like "Abilities only affect the game when they're active".

Precise timing can inform a lot of issues. For instance, if Fel attacks a ship with a Rebel Captive, will he be able to spend the focus during the attack? If Kath Scarlet attacks him, could he potentially gain a focus in the attack and spend it on the same attack? These are timing questions which are answerable because the attack process (generally) has tight timing rules. That concept extends to the entirety of the rules structure - games with crazy abilities like this work because abilities fit into certain places, and we can decipher them and their interactions because it's all controlled by the rules.

In this case, looking at turrets, there are two key factors: First, that there is a specific flow through the process, and second that a card can't affect the game state until it is active. So let's say you want to shoot at a ship that's behind you. You start through the flow, and get to target selection. You have no legal targets at this point - the turret is not active, so its ability to change the targeting rules isn't active. You can't pick the target, because the base rules say you have to pick a target in your forward firing arc. This is only really a problem for turrets - other secondary weapons have targeting restrictions which are more restrictive than the basic primary, so "Pick a target and if it's not valid for the secondaries you just can't use that weapon." But for turrets, which should increase your target options, it doesn't work.

We can generally handwave past this, because we obviously know that turrets SHOULD work... but we shouldn't have to.

I'm lost on your 'turret is not active'...

Aren't you ignoring that part of the process could be simultaneous timing with restrictive priorities?

No hand waving...

I can look at a target beside me, realize that they are ever so slightly outside my forward arc and change my mind to a turret. No problem, no timing issue.

Sorry, I focused on turrets and skipped your DC comments...

The problem with DC in declaring weapons first is that traditionally, costs have to be paid before you get the effects of an ability. So if I declare the weapon before target selection, then I pay the cost before target selection. If I pay the cost before target selection, the DC is not defending at that point, and hence his ability isn't active.

I'm lost on your 'turret is not active'...

Aren't you ignoring that part of the process could be simultaneous timing with restrictive priorities?

When you look at game text on a card, when does it apply? Consider Proton Torpedoes, which change an eyeball to a critical. If I make a primary weapon attack, can I use the Proton Torpedo text to change an eyeball to a critical? Rather obviously not. Why? Because the text on the Proton Torpedo is only active when you're using it to make the attack.

Same thing goes for the turrets. It has to be active - that is, you've chosen to use it in making an attack - before its text comes into play and changes the rules. In the case of Dark Curse, his text says "When defending..." That means that it isn't active unless he has been declared as the target of the attack, which makes him the defender.

Nothing in a system like this is really simultaneous. Everything happens one at a time, in a specific order as dictated by the rules (and the decision points from the players). Even when things are theoretically simultaneous, such as two effects that have the same trigger, they are resolved one at a time.

I'm still not fully following but close.

So since the rules clearly discuss declaring a target but not a weapon system, then how about this.

Declare your target (i.e. you have a defender). Then make your other selections in whatever order you (the attacker chooses). Of course the text on a card only applies IF you choose to use/activate that card AND it is within the limits of the rules AND it is withing the limits of the card/upgrade.

If during the process everything is cool, the planets align, the TO gods smile, etc... commit to that target.

Otherwise start step one over and declare the same or a different target.

Everything begins as the rules state: Declare Target.

By the Core Rules Page 10: (broken down my notes are blue and in italics)

How does this not work for turrets, Dark Curse, Torpedoes, primary weapons?

P.S. One has to remember to choose colours that work for dark backgrounds on this site.