Bad. Reserving effective FA for specialists is the main point on the change - the better shooter you are, the more fire you can reliably put on target.

Orks are supposed to be lousy shots who waste a ton of ammo effectively shooting the air with reckless abandon and ultimately killing their mark with the sheer overwhelming volume of fire, so it's totally working as intended. What you might want to check out is the "give 'em sum dakka" Talent from Rogue Trader which lets an Ork use Suppressive Fire as Half Action.

Well honest, but why is this not the same for Semi-Auto under the rules, as thats basically my major change to Autofire? Or why does my version not allow better shooter to more reliably get more hits, with either fire mode? If anything, this makes Autofire a good chance for untrained shooters get a single hit, and dedicated shooter multiple hits, while those professionals might often go for the more controllable SA fire and thus get more hits.

This is somewhat supported in the old fluff, where SA was more of a limited fully automatic short burst (think M16), than simply squeezing the trigger multiple times. RL professionals also often fire very short bursts when using automatic fire, despite not having a burst limit. Firing 10 rounds are usually not necessary against a single target, and is likely to give too much recoil to reliably hit the last shots anyway.

And orc with BS 19, using a shoota at short range has an effective BS 39. He needs to roll 19 or lower to get 2 hits... thus he will be ineffectually spraying about. An elite stormtrooper with BS 45 will on the other hand get more hits on the target, and will probably take advantage of an aim action to improve that even more.

Suppressive fire can be effective, but an ork boy cannot hit anyone with it, so it only works in conjunction with... single shots. Which really should not be the ork way.

My main concern with this is that SA might get superiority anyway even for the skilled shooters, as getting enough DoS to get even 5 hits is almost impossible.

I really like the changes, but I think they might have gone a bit too far on the Autofire mode. As pointed out, it now seems to work well for those with very high BS, or at PB range, but not for grunts, ork boys etc.

In fact during my first session I noticed that Ork Shoota Boys have no mechanical reason to fire full auto at all, as their poor BS means that they can't hit with more than one DoS anyway. So much for "more dakka."

This used to be my opinion, but then I started to think that "more dakka" could better be represented by loads of Suppressive Fire.

Suppressive fire doesn't hit much at all - penalty exceeds BS skill.

Now if you want to enable FA to hit more, thus justifying firing 10 rounds, it might be possible to spread the hits more:

Every 2 DoS hits the target, but the every ODD DoS beyond the first will hit an adjacent target (bystander, enemy, comrade, cover etc.) instead of the original target.

Example: Bob the dreaded heavy with BS 42 fires his heavy stubber on an ork 50 meters away running towards him. He has stabilization from comrade, and uses an aim action before firing his 8 round FA burst. His adjusted BS is 72, and he rolls a 22 (6 DoS). The first round hits the target, as does the 3rd and 5th. The 2nd, 4th and 6th hits the ork buddies that are running beside the target, while the last 2 bullets miss the targets completely. If he had rolled 02 he would have gotten a 4th hit on the original target and only missed a single round from the burst.

Basically, this is quite similar to every DoS being a hit, except the gunner doesn't have full control on how to assign the hits and can hit empty space or random people and objects.

Compare this to the same guy facing a single enemy officer with only a Lasgun. He aims and fires SA at short range, giving 62 effective BS. He needs to roll only 42 or less to get 3 hits, while if he had used some FA weapon most of the hits would be wasted on thin air, even if the chance of landing a single hit would be greater.

OK, longer post that I thought, but answer me this please: Would this make FA the only good choice again, or would being able to land 3 shots at the same target and having only 10% less bonus than Autofire be enough to justify Semi-Auto burst? I certainly want to keep FA an option and not the end-all. Try to keep an open mind, I will do the same. (remember, an open mind is an invitation to heresy, and with great corruption comes great power).

In the real world, professionals who use weapons actually pick the weapons that they think will be effective in a given context. That is, they base their choice on realworldhammerstatistics.

Who are you telling this to? I am having trouble seeing that.

His point is that if you are roleplaying as a hard-bitten combat specialist, your character is likely to choose the weapon that is the most effective for them, rather than one which just looks cool. Sometimes making optimal choices *is* roleplaying, and making suboptimal choices is bad rping.

Okay, here's how it should work, Full auto should have two different methods (not modes) of firing in addition to overwatch and suppression. you should be able to fire a tight burst and a wide burst similar to the rules in Shadowrun. A tight burst would function exactly as it currently does, -10 to BS and extra hit for every two degrees of success whereas a wide burst would increase BS +10 like the single shot but completely negate the potential for extra hits based on extra degrees of success

Basically if I want to take out a tough slow target I would use a tight burst to maximize damage against an easier to hit target, the -10 to BS makes sense because it is physically demanding to keep a full auto weapon on target after the first round but the projectiles are traveling in close proximity increasing your odds of socring extra hits... the Bulging Biceps talent should reduce this penalty to +0 as per Arnold and Rambo style.

A wide burst would be used specifically to target fast moving agile creatures because by increasing the odds of a hit by firing projectiles in the vicinity of the creature giving it less room to dodge... this also is likely how Orks would use their weapons... Yeah they may be firing ten rounds with increased odds to hit but there's no way in hell an Ork puts more than one round on it's intended target... Alternatively a wide burst could be ruled to potentially hit target within 2-5m of the initial target for every two or three degrees of success.

Okay, here's how it should work, Full auto should have two different methods (not modes) of firing in addition to overwatch and suppression. you should be able to fire a tight burst and a wide burst similar to the rules in Shadowrun. A tight burst would function exactly as it currently does, -10 to BS and extra hit for every two degrees of success whereas a wide burst would increase BS +10 like the single shot but completely negate the potential for extra hits based on extra degrees of success

Basically if I want to take out a tough slow target I would use a tight burst to maximize damage against an easier to hit target, the -10 to BS makes sense because it is physically demanding to keep a full auto weapon on target after the first round but the projectiles are traveling in close proximity increasing your odds of socring extra hits... the Bulging Biceps talent should reduce this penalty to +0 as per Arnold and Rambo style.

A wide burst would be used specifically to target fast moving agile creatures because by increasing the odds of a hit by firing projectiles in the vicinity of the creature giving it less room to dodge... this also is likely how Orks would use their weapons... Yeah they may be firing ten rounds with increased odds to hit but there's no way in hell an Ork puts more than one round on it's intended target... Alternatively a wide burst could be ruled to potentially hit target within 2-5m of the initial target for every two or three degrees of success.

I like the ShadowRun rules, but I don't think they are compatible to this system. Besides, normal rules is one hit per DoS, not every two (beyond the first) as you say.

If you wanted something more akin to SR, we could divide it into 3 modes: SA, Short Burst and Long Burst, with the option of short or wide versions of the bursts.

SA fire could be used twice in one round (half action each), with no bonus to hit. Being able to shoot twice could make up for the missing bonus. Aim action will be a real choice then, rather than what you do every turn you don't need to move.

Short bursts replaces SA burst, up to RoF of 3. Narrow version gives -10% to hit and does one hit per DoS, wide version +10% to hit and one extra hit per 2 DoS.

Long bursts are as Short, except it uses 10 rounds. Narrow gives -20% to hit, one hit per DoS, wide version +20% to hit, and one extra hit per DoS. Using a Braced weapon, reduces penalty from narrow burst by 10%, and it can be further reduced by comrade or a tripod/vehicle mount.

Wide bursts also has a chance to hit anyone within 3 meters of the target - for every 2 DoS a round hits one of those around, divided evenly as possible.

SUMMARY

Well, as you can see, this changes a lot. 2 Single shots basically means "can't dodge this." Narrow short bursts are probably best for the skilled marksman, as it is fairly good chance of landing 3 shots on target. Wide version gives him a better chance of hitting, and decent chance of two hits, but unlikely to hit with all 3.

Long narrow reduces the chance of hitting too much, unless at PB range, short range, Braced etc. Heavy Stubbers and Bolters on tripods are probably best at this. Long wide gives a good chance to hit at the cost of ammo, and decent chance of hitting with 2 rounds but not much else.This is mainly useful for amateurs and orks, although if you're shooting into a crowd or line of infantry it becomes very effective.

So, which of these modes would be rubbish, which would be OP, and would they fit together?

PS I assume with these that Lasguns etc. can either only fire (2) single shots per round or are locked to short bursts only (like old M16s). The latter I think is more in line with the old TT fluff.

Maybe Orcs should have the Unnatural Ballistic Skill trait. This would incentivize them to make Full Auto attacks, because if they did hit it would be with multiple shots, but would not change their basic accuracy.

I feel they need something that relates to their gestalt belief in "more dakka".

Okay, here's how it should work, Full auto should have two different methods (not modes) of firing in addition to overwatch and suppression. you should be able to fire a tight burst and a wide burst similar to the rules in Shadowrun. A tight burst would function exactly as it currently does, -10 to BS and extra hit for every two degrees of success whereas a wide burst would increase BS +10 like the single shot but completely negate the potential for extra hits based on extra degrees of success

Basically if I want to take out a tough slow target I would use a tight burst to maximize damage against an easier to hit target, the -10 to BS makes sense because it is physically demanding to keep a full auto weapon on target after the first round but the projectiles are traveling in close proximity increasing your odds of socring extra hits... the Bulging Biceps talent should reduce this penalty to +0 as per Arnold and Rambo style.

A wide burst would be used specifically to target fast moving agile creatures because by increasing the odds of a hit by firing projectiles in the vicinity of the creature giving it less room to dodge... this also is likely how Orks would use their weapons... Yeah they may be firing ten rounds with increased odds to hit but there's no way in hell an Ork puts more than one round on it's intended target... Alternatively a wide burst could be ruled to potentially hit target within 2-5m of the initial target for every two or three degrees of success.

I like the ShadowRun rules, but I don't think they are compatible to this system. Besides, normal rules is one hit per DoS, not every two (beyond the first) as you say.

If you wanted something more akin to SR, we could divide it into 3 modes: SA, Short Burst and Long Burst, with the option of short or wide versions of the bursts.

SA fire could be used twice in one round (half action each), with no bonus to hit. Being able to shoot twice could make up for the missing bonus. Aim action will be a real choice then, rather than what you do every turn you don't need to move.

Short bursts replaces SA burst, up to RoF of 3. Narrow version gives -10% to hit and does one hit per DoS, wide version +10% to hit and one extra hit per 2 DoS.

Long bursts are as Short, except it uses 10 rounds. Narrow gives -20% to hit, one hit per DoS, wide version +20% to hit, and one extra hit per DoS. Using a Braced weapon, reduces penalty from narrow burst by 10%, and it can be further reduced by comrade or a tripod/vehicle mount.

Wide bursts also has a chance to hit anyone within 3 meters of the target - for every 2 DoS a round hits one of those around, divided evenly as possible.

SUMMARY

Well, as you can see, this changes a lot. 2 Single shots basically means "can't dodge this." Narrow short bursts are probably best for the skilled marksman, as it is fairly good chance of landing 3 shots on target. Wide version gives him a better chance of hitting, and decent chance of two hits, but unlikely to hit with all 3.

Long narrow reduces the chance of hitting too much, unless at PB range, short range, Braced etc. Heavy Stubbers and Bolters on tripods are probably best at this. Long wide gives a good chance to hit at the cost of ammo, and decent chance of hitting with 2 rounds but not much else.This is mainly useful for amateurs and orks, although if you're shooting into a crowd or line of infantry it becomes very effective.

So, which of these modes would be rubbish, which would be OP, and would they fit together?

PS I assume with these that Lasguns etc. can either only fire (2) single shots per round or are locked to short bursts only (like old M16s). The latter I think is more in line with the old TT fluff.

The problem with your method is that it is over complicated, why would you change SA at all, SA specifically represents pulling the trigger multiple times in one attack, not a one trigger pull burst where as single represents pulling the trigger once with a bit of aiming involved which is why you get +10; we're talking about Full Auto, and yes you are absolutely right about every extra degree of success, my mistake. I wasn't suggesting a full transfer to the Shadowrun rules, just suggesting that Full Auto should be able to increase your chance to hit, or your potential damage but not both... otherwise as it is full auto is only good for overwatch and suppression fire.

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous.

From Online Dictionary:

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

The guns are not realistic of course.

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons.

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested.

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous.

From Online Dictionary:

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.

b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

The guns are not realistic of course.

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons.

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested.

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous.

From Online Dictionary:

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.

b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

The guns are not realistic of course.

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons.

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested.

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

Well that's more like it. It does make a wide burst from Autofire be superior to SA fire in all situations where ammo conservation is not a priority though. I'm guessing short version would be unchanged, as in -10% and one hit per DoS?

Still, it would allow say an ork to blaze away and in most chances have a slim chance of landing 2 hits (9%) and ok chance of landing one. Since ammo conservation and calculating odds have never been a strong side of orks, that seems just fine to me

BTW I just noticed a typo I made in my own suggestion for long wide burst, I meant to have one extra hit per 2 DoS (otherwise it would be OP DH rule!), so this is pretty close. Reducing it to +10 and keeping SA as it is might just be ok.

I would consider why SA is inherently less accurate than FA burst (less chance to land multiple shots), but with these talents you mention it's suddenly easy to land all 3 shots, so maybe just leave it as is.

I will try to suggest this simplified version to my players, and see if they can live with it at least (they can simply not use it of course). It makes being shot at by multiple goons with Autoguns more dangerous (less likely to miss completely).

One potential issue is that this makes Single Shot less useful again - ammo conservation is the only benefit from it with these house rules, while with normal rules it always had an Edge with accuracy.

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous.

From Online Dictionary:

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.

b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

The guns are not realistic of course.

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons.

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested.

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

Well that's more like it. It does make a wide burst from Autofire be superior to SA fire in all situations where ammo conservation is not a priority though. I'm guessing short version would be unchanged, as in -10% and one hit per DoS?

Still, it would allow say an ork to blaze away and in most chances have a slim chance of landing 2 hits (9%) and ok chance of landing one. Since ammo conservation and calculating odds have never been a strong side of orks, that seems just fine to me

BTW I just noticed a typo I made in my own suggestion for long wide burst, I meant to have one extra hit per 2 DoS (otherwise it would be OP DH rule!), so this is pretty close. Reducing it to +10 and keeping SA as it is might just be ok.

I would consider why SA is inherently less accurate than FA burst (less chance to land multiple shots), but with these talents you mention it's suddenly easy to land all 3 shots, so maybe just leave it as is.

I will try to suggest this simplified version to my players, and see if they can live with it at least (they can simply not use it of course). It makes being shot at by multiple goons with Autoguns more dangerous (less likely to miss completely).

One potential issue is that this makes Single Shot less useful again - ammo conservation is the only benefit from it with these house rules, while with normal rules it always had an Edge with accuracy.

Yeah I share your concern with Single shot but think about most of the weapons that are single are either accurate (Long Las, Sniper Rifle) have a special quality (Shotguns that Scatter allowing for more hits in close range) or last resort weapons with low capacity (Stub Revolver, Black Powder, hand crossbow)

So from a strictly reload aspect low capacity weapons and single shot are almost necessary. Compare three pistols, Stub Revolver, Stub Automatic, Autopistol; the revolver can fire two bullets in 1 round with +10 each, the Stub Auto can fire 6 bullets in a round on SA, and the Autopistol can fire 12 bullets in a round on FA.

With both the Stub Auto and Autopistol you have three half actions worth of prolonged fire, (hell I just realized that with the ammo capacity the Autogun on FA you only have three half actions worth of prolonged fire) where as the revolver has six half actions of prolonged fire with a +10 to hit. Now obviously all of the pistols have the single option but this just serves as an example of how easy it is to burn through ammo on the other modes before you have to reload, assuming you have the requisite ammunition to reload... if you only have three reloads for each weapon Single is significantly more economical.

Luckily most of the weapons that use FA are high capacity Heavy weapons without Single as an option.

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous.

From Online Dictionary:

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.

b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

The guns are not realistic of course.

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons.

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested.

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

Well that's more like it. It does make a wide burst from Autofire be superior to SA fire in all situations where ammo conservation is not a priority though. I'm guessing short version would be unchanged, as in -10% and one hit per DoS?

Still, it would allow say an ork to blaze away and in most chances have a slim chance of landing 2 hits (9%) and ok chance of landing one. Since ammo conservation and calculating odds have never been a strong side of orks, that seems just fine to me

BTW I just noticed a typo I made in my own suggestion for long wide burst, I meant to have one extra hit per 2 DoS (otherwise it would be OP DH rule!), so this is pretty close. Reducing it to +10 and keeping SA as it is might just be ok.

I would consider why SA is inherently less accurate than FA burst (less chance to land multiple shots), but with these talents you mention it's suddenly easy to land all 3 shots, so maybe just leave it as is.

I will try to suggest this simplified version to my players, and see if they can live with it at least (they can simply not use it of course). It makes being shot at by multiple goons with Autoguns more dangerous (less likely to miss completely).

One potential issue is that this makes Single Shot less useful again - ammo conservation is the only benefit from it with these house rules, while with normal rules it always had an Edge with accuracy.

Yeah I share your concern with Single shot but think about most of the weapons that are single are either accurate (Long Las, Sniper Rifle) have a special quality (Shotguns that Scatter allowing for more hits in close range) or last resort weapons with low capacity (Stub Revolver, Black Powder, hand crossbow)

So from a strictly reload aspect low capacity weapons and single shot are almost necessary. Compare three pistols, Stub Revolver, Stub Automatic, Autopistol; the revolver can fire two bullets in 1 round with +10 each, the Stub Auto can fire 6 bullets in a round on SA, and the Autopistol can fire 12 bullets in a round on FA.

With both the Stub Auto and Autopistol you have three half actions worth of prolonged fire, (hell I just realized that with the ammo capacity the Autogun on FA you only have three half actions worth of prolonged fire) where as the revolver has six half actions of prolonged fire with a +10 to hit. Now obviously all of the pistols have the single option but this just serves as an example of how easy it is to burn through ammo on the other modes before you have to reload, assuming you have the requisite ammunition to reload... if you only have three reloads for each weapon Single is significantly more economical.

Luckily most of the weapons that use FA are high capacity Heavy weapons without Single as an option.

Despite only being a half action, you cannot by the normal rules repeat that action in the same round. So one only shot with SS, 3 with SA and max 10 with FA.

If SS mode could be done twice it would give it a serious power bost, as most cannot dodge the second shot. If you do the same with SA and FA they just become much better too, and dodge wouldn't be that good until you get Step Aside etc.

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous.

From Online Dictionary:

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.

b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

The guns are not realistic of course.

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons.

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested.

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

Well that's more like it. It does make a wide burst from Autofire be superior to SA fire in all situations where ammo conservation is not a priority though. I'm guessing short version would be unchanged, as in -10% and one hit per DoS?

Still, it would allow say an ork to blaze away and in most chances have a slim chance of landing 2 hits (9%) and ok chance of landing one. Since ammo conservation and calculating odds have never been a strong side of orks, that seems just fine to me

BTW I just noticed a typo I made in my own suggestion for long wide burst, I meant to have one extra hit per 2 DoS (otherwise it would be OP DH rule!), so this is pretty close. Reducing it to +10 and keeping SA as it is might just be ok.

I would consider why SA is inherently less accurate than FA burst (less chance to land multiple shots), but with these talents you mention it's suddenly easy to land all 3 shots, so maybe just leave it as is.

I will try to suggest this simplified version to my players, and see if they can live with it at least (they can simply not use it of course). It makes being shot at by multiple goons with Autoguns more dangerous (less likely to miss completely).

One potential issue is that this makes Single Shot less useful again - ammo conservation is the only benefit from it with these house rules, while with normal rules it always had an Edge with accuracy.

Yeah I share your concern with Single shot but think about most of the weapons that are single are either accurate (Long Las, Sniper Rifle) have a special quality (Shotguns that Scatter allowing for more hits in close range) or last resort weapons with low capacity (Stub Revolver, Black Powder, hand crossbow)

So from a strictly reload aspect low capacity weapons and single shot are almost necessary. Compare three pistols, Stub Revolver, Stub Automatic, Autopistol; the revolver can fire two bullets in 1 round with +10 each, the Stub Auto can fire 6 bullets in a round on SA, and the Autopistol can fire 12 bullets in a round on FA.

With both the Stub Auto and Autopistol you have three half actions worth of prolonged fire, (hell I just realized that with the ammo capacity the Autogun on FA you only have three half actions worth of prolonged fire) where as the revolver has six half actions of prolonged fire with a +10 to hit. Now obviously all of the pistols have the single option but this just serves as an example of how easy it is to burn through ammo on the other modes before you have to reload, assuming you have the requisite ammunition to reload... if you only have three reloads for each weapon Single is significantly more economical.

Luckily most of the weapons that use FA are high capacity Heavy weapons without Single as an option.

Despite only being a half action, you cannot by the normal rules repeat that action in the same round. So one only shot with SS, 3 with SA and max 10 with FA.

If SS mode could be done twice it would give it a serious power bost, as most cannot dodge the second shot. If you do the same with SA and FA they just become much better too, and dodge wouldn't be that good until you get Step Aside etc.

Eh, in my games I see absolutely no reason to disallow you to conduct follow up shots with additional half actions... Specifically so my players can actually go through an entire lasgun powerpack... 60 shots is alot when you're only poppin off three shots a round and I feel that having to actually reload your weapon adds to the combat experience, there's a lot more reloading in real life than there is in this game I can tell you that much. Plus I think people mistakenly rely on dodge more than utilizing actual cover, and seeking cover would be more appealing if you can hunker down and just shoot instead of hunker down and shoot once then have a wasted half action... Basically I just dictate that a followup shot consists of firing at the same target with their second half action, in my mind they wouldn't have a whole lot of time to pick another target.

Eh, in my games I see absolutely no reason to disallow you to conduct follow up shots with additional half actions... Specifically so my players can actually go through an entire lasgun powerpack... 60 shots is alot when you're only poppin off three shots a round and I feel that having to actually reload your weapon adds to the combat experience, there's a lot more reloading in real life than there is in this game I can tell you that much. Plus I think people mistakenly rely on dodge more than utilizing actual cover, and seeking cover would be more appealing if you can hunker down and just shoot instead of hunker down and shoot once then have a wasted half action... Basically I just dictate that a followup shot consists of firing at the same target with their second half action, in my mind they wouldn't have a whole lot of time to pick another target.

The main reason is, thats the rules. You cannot take two Attack subtype actions in the same round. Apparently you have a house rule you didn't even know about, or at least don't expect everyone else to do the same.

I personally wouldn't mind allowing more shots fired, as the current numbers are low compared to the time of a round. However, it makes it even more important to win initiative as someone can shoot you twice before you have time to get to cover, and it makes the melee Swift Attack talents less useful as instead of trying to get several DoS to land an extra blow you could just strike twice with +10 - quite a difference.

Probably more balanced to keep it as it is IMHO.

Eh, in my games I see absolutely no reason to disallow you to conduct follow up shots with additional half actions... Specifically so my players can actually go through an entire lasgun powerpack... 60 shots is alot when you're only poppin off three shots a round and I feel that having to actually reload your weapon adds to the combat experience, there's a lot more reloading in real life than there is in this game I can tell you that much. Plus I think people mistakenly rely on dodge more than utilizing actual cover, and seeking cover would be more appealing if you can hunker down and just shoot instead of hunker down and shoot once then have a wasted half action... Basically I just dictate that a followup shot consists of firing at the same target with their second half action, in my mind they wouldn't have a whole lot of time to pick another target.

The main reason is, thats the rules. You cannot take two Attack subtype actions in the same round. Apparently you have a house rule you didn't even know about, or at least don't expect everyone else to do the same.

I personally wouldn't mind allowing more shots fired, as the current numbers are low compared to the time of a round. However, it makes it even more important to win initiative as someone can shoot you twice before you have time to get to cover, and it makes the melee Swift Attack talents less useful as instead of trying to get several DoS to land an extra blow you could just strike twice with +10 - quite a difference.

Probably more balanced to keep it as it is IMHO.

Like I said, followup shots... it's a lot easier to pull the trigger once more than it is to rear back and swing a melee weapon a second time. As for things being "the rules" luckily I do not have a FFG representative in the room ensuring I adhere strictly to the rules so I use them as guidelines... I prefer to stick with common sense rather than as the rules are read because as has been discussed in these forums some things just don't make a god **** lick of sense, plus that has offered players multiple opportunities to think outside the box; they tell me what they want to do no matter how ridiculous it seems and I try to see how the rules can support that action, and if there isn't one immediately available then I just make whatever call I think makes the most sense realistically... sometimes these "house rules" are completely contextually based, whereas if they weren't in the specific situation then they wouldn't get the circumstance/Cojones bonus... I think if a GM were to just read straight from the book without any personal interpretation it becomes very wooden and boring... that's just me and my guys though, the game should be played however people have fun, I guess even if that is a rigid adherence to the rules for a group.

The other half-action is used to Aim. It's not wasted.

I liked the changes to the firing rules well enough to make them retroactive to all the other 40k RPGs. I find they tend to work quite well, with particularly excellent characters still able to land plenty of shots with full auto but having the make a decision between speed of fire and accuracy, now. I'm not all that concerned about their realism so much as the fact that they work well for gameplay, which they do.

The other half-action is used to Aim. It's not wasted.

Well I guess using aim as well as making a guarded attack would more or less even out the penalties while maximizing cover.

There's a bunch of stuff you can do with that half-action. Aim, Guarded Action, duck back entirely behind cover...

Speaking strictly from the viewpoint of rule mechanics (maybe even rule balance), what if...

Single Shot- Half Action, +10 (indicating a careful pacing of preparing to take the shot and pulling the trigger; it is, after all, an "ordinary" [+10] Action)

Semi-Auto- Half Action, +/-0 (representing it being more "difficult" to resist muzzle rise) [One could look at the difference between a Single Shot and Semi-Auto being a Difficult BS Test, hence the -10 difference.]

Full Auto- Full Action, +20 (due to the volume of shots put downrange), but always treated as Suppressing Fire, -20, for a total modifier of +/-0? For those that want to cite examples of "experienced shooters" being better shots with Full Auto weaponry, I say that becomes the domain of a specialized Talent. Orks in Rogue Trader have one (Give Em More Dakka), reducing their Full Auto to a Half Action, which then allows them to Suppress their targets, maybe hit someone (they do have low BS), and continue to close with their enemy (Half Action Move).

Honestly, what is the difference between someone shooting a rattling hail of Full Auto at a target, or shooting a rattling hail of Full Auto at a target with the intention of Suppressing? None, really, other than intention. But your target shouldn't ever be able to make that distinction. All the target knows is that there are a lot of shots coming their way, and they might get hit, and they need to duck into cover, and quickly (the Pinning Test associated with being on the receiving end of Suppressing Fire, giving Will Power more relevance in a standard combat encounter).

The only mechanical difference then between Semi-Auto and Full Auto is the Action time (Full as opposed to Half). Well that, and the ammo expenditure.

Now I think about it, I may just go this route and absorb the Suppressing Fire Action directly into the Full Auto Action. I've already House Ruled hit resolution of Full Auto fire as being 1 hit with 1 DoS, 2 hits with 2-3 DoS, 4 hits with 4-5 DoS, 6 hits with 6-7 DoS, and so on. I've also capped Target Numbers at 100 (actually less to account for weapon Jam, the Unreliable Quality, automatic misses), and we determine DoS/DoF a bit differently, so weapons with a Full Auto RoF 9-10 never get that 9th or 10th bullet to hit, but I consider that the equalizing consequence of high RoF ammo expenditure. Some bullets just don't hit anything.

That I definitely agree with; I've never really understood suppressing fire being different from normal full auto fire; "someone with a machinegun is shooting at me" is the underlying reality; he's not exactly 'not aiming at you'. I get why this might be different if trying to suppress a big arc of targets - you're washing fire back and forth to suppress multiple opponents - but nine times out of ten, I tend to see one guy firing at one target.

I have not yet used suppressing fire OW but have used it a # of times in DH to try to pin down enemy "squads"

Oh, I get why it's good, just not why it's different from normal automatic fire.

That was one element I liked from way back when in Inquisitor ; all shots were pinning - but you got a big Nerve bonus if it didn't actually hit you, unless you were under fire from a weapon on full auto.

Oh, I get why it's good, just not why it's different from normal automatic fire.

That was one element I liked from way back when in Inquisitor ; all shots were pinning - but you got a big Nerve bonus if it didn't actually hit you, unless you were under fire from a weapon on full auto.

It's mostly a matter of not bogging down gameplay horribly, methinks.

This thread sort of confuses me in parts. The difference between "Autofire" modes is essentially, Single target or suppression fire. To hit a specific target with a fully automatic weapon IRL is actually fairly difficult but, if you spray rounds downrange everyone in that direction will run for cover! Again, IRL suppressive fire rarely hits much of any thing! I actually used to be on the side of the "old" system but a poster on this forum pointed out the design philosophy and I find I now like the new system. The only place I feel it breaks down is in vehicle combat. Vehicle weapon mounts (Other than pintel mounts) are not really affected by recoils so much as they are by stabilization and fire control systems. I personally feel that vehicle weapons should have a modifier similar to Rogue Trader's Detection bonus on Starships. Generically I would use the following: Combat vehicles (Tanks and Combat aircraft) +10. Transport vehicles (APC's with mounted weapons) +0 And non-combat vehicles or Pintel mounted weapons would use the rules for personal weapons.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.