or something like that.
That's the beauty of the EotE system -- the lure of the dark side is already there due to the fact that 7 of 12 faces of the Force Die have dark pips. The temptation to use those only dissipates when you have sufficient Force Rating to provide you with all the light pips you need.
Well the only mechanic I have ever seen which represented the lure of the dark side pretty well was the preserver/defiler mechanic in AD&D 2nd edition Dark Sun...
Basically you advanced faster and had a bonus to your initiative when you used the "evil" way of the defiler...
Not really a good example as the choice of going one way or the other was done at character creation and not during game-play. You chose to be either a Defiler or a Preserver when you decided what your first level of spellcasting was and that fixed it after that. The temptation of the Dark Side in Star Wars is something ever present, even for the brightest of Light Side users.
In WEG, that required one to use Dark Side powers or spend a Force Point and call on the Dark Side to power their abilities (even normally Light Side ones like healing). Also extremely heinous acts would potentially gain you a Dark Side Point, but only if you were force sensitive. Non force sensitives were nearly immune to the Dark Side.
I still don't think you should take control of dark side characters. Not unless they are like, leaving the party for good. But if they do that, they won't be losing control of their character because they are evil now. They are because they are leaving the party and you aren't running two different campaigns (that is, unless you want to.)
I love this idea, but I would NEVER "Make a character become an NPC" without full 100% permission from the player. I would MUCH rather have the player choose to leave on their own and turn the character over to you, or have their character confront the PCs and fight them himself, possibly with other evil friends that he has made along the way. Never ever EVER be like "Well you're evil now, you lose your character and I'm going to play him now by go make a droid or something." It is THEIR character, and the only thing that can truly make them lose control of their character is if they are being mind controlled or if they die. But, if their character is falling to the darkside, you are definitely welcome to encourage them to turn on the party. I LOVE inter party conflict!
Neither would I, but some folks insist on a "good guys only" campaign. Or at least I assume some do, since so many books act like that's how people play. It's entirely possible that an entire industry is built around people pretending to be heroes, while everyone playing uses those same rules to play a rampaging band of murder hobos.
Bad guy campaigns can be interesting, depending on the maturity of your players. For me, a character going evil means the player would start screwing with the party and that causes actual hurt feelings amongst the players. So, evil character becomes NPC and new PC shows up.
Well the only mechanic I have ever seen which represented the lure of the dark side pretty well was the preserver/defiler mechanic in AD&D 2nd edition Dark Sun...
Basically you advanced faster and had a bonus to your initiative when you used the "evil" way of the defiler...
Not really a good example as the choice of going one way or the other was done at character creation and not during game-play. You chose to be either a Defiler or a Preserver when you decided what your first level of spellcasting was and that fixed it after that. The temptation of the Dark Side in Star Wars is something ever present, even for the brightest of Light Side users.
I've heard that Dark Sun was originally developed as a stand-alone game and later shoehorned in as a D&D product. I don't know if it's true, but it was a terrible fit. It works much better with Savage Worlds rules... or perhaps as a retooled EtoE game? *cough cough!*
Anyway, falling to the Dark Side certainly doesn't need Sith training. Several Force traditions make heavy use of the Dark Side without such training, such as the Nightsisters.
I consider the "Sensitivity" part of "Force Senstivity" to be extremely important. A Force Sensitive child who displays no powers is going to seem "troubled" to the adults around him. When he's happy and feeling loved, that same energy just pours out of him. But when he's angry and tormented, that anger overwhelms him completely and bad things happen. When you consider how a normal person can be overwhelmed by anger, this prospect becomes frightening. "Light" traditions focus on keeping these emotions in check, while "dark" traditions embrace them. One of the best duties of the Jedi Order was tracking down these Sensitives and teaching them control, so they could be at peace. Even if they never became proper Jedi or grew in power, they would be able to live some type of normal life. This of course makes the Council's refusal to teach Anakin pretty astounding, but I have another rant for that.
Pretty much every consequence for any action in Edge of the Empire is going to be story-based (with a few mechanical things like strain, or damage, or obligation). Edge of the Empire is a system where more than most, the GM isn't really the enemy and is a story teller and a facilitator, which makes it so it really is a decision between the players and the GM about just what sort of consequences exist for using the Dark Side. Also, with no mechanical rule determining when someone "Turns," it's more realistic. If you've told a player that their character is being more and more affected by their use of the Dark Side, then they know things are getting bad, but don't know how many more times they could get away with taking the easy way out.
If the Force Exile in question has been using the Dark Side for awhile, and finds them self backed into a corner and their best hope is to use the Force and nothing but black dots come up... they're going to be tempted to use them, just like the character actually would. The Fall is only interesting when it's dramatic, otherwise it's just some evil jerk being more evil and they were essentially Dark Side to begin with.
Not really a good example as the choice of going one way or the other was done at character creation and not during game-play.Well the only mechanic I have ever seen which represented the lure of the dark side pretty well was the preserver/defiler mechanic in AD&D 2nd edition Dark Sun...
Basically you advanced faster and had a bonus to your initiative when you used the "evil" way of the defiler...
We have a preserver in our current campaign and he is *very* tempted to become a defiler... more than any Jedi in any whatever SW campaign I played using whatever system I know (WEG d6, WEG d6 ex, WotC 1st, 2nd and Saga) ever was.
Anyway, falling to the Dark Side certainly doesn't need Sith training. Several Force traditions make heavy use of the Dark Side without such training, such as the Nightsisters.
Of course not, since it is the easy way...
That's why I suggested (out of thin air) that you would just learn Dark Side powers at half the cost. That's how the Dark Side IMO should work: It gives you power faster and easier.
And what it demands that you act in a selfish way. That's why I suggested that you get strain when you act selflessly.
That's the beauty of the EotE system -- the lure of the dark side is already there due to the fact that 7 of 12 faces of the Force Die have dark pips. The temptation to use those only dissipates when you have sufficient Force Rating to provide you with all the light pips you need.
IMO that's a very caffeine free view on the dark side.
Well... this is really not bad... but basically it has no real consequences besides flipping a pretty temporary resource token and costing you one strain. It has no consequence to your character.That's the beauty of the EotE system -- the lure of the dark side is already there due to the fact that 7 of 12 faces of the Force Die have dark pips. The temptation to use those only dissipates when you have sufficient Force Rating to provide you with all the light pips you need.
IMO that's a very caffeine free view on the dark side.
It causes an amount of strain equal to the number of black pips you use. And I think it has just the right method for dealing with this, because it's the sort of trade someone would probably make in a dangerous moment where they really need that force power to work. It also leaves further consequences in the hands of the GM and the player, because quite honestly that's where the actual consequences are going to come in. You can call on the Dark Side once or twice and not necessarily fall, but routine usage will corrupt you and keeping an actual mechanical rule from controlling what happens, it lets the GM fit it to the game... because the more rules there are for something, the more awkward it can be to modify it as a newer GM.
Half-cost Force Powers are going to lead to OP players very quickly, and a very unhappy rest-of-the-party when the DS force user is just mowing down everyone.
Half-cost Force Powers are going to lead to OP players very quickly, and a very unhappy rest-of-the-party when the DS force user is just mowing down everyone.
I'm inclined to agree. The Dark Side makes it easier to use a power (hence giving you 7/12 chances to activate it rather than 5/12), this is a good enough way to show how it is easier... but it's also not actually more powerful in the EotE system. When looking over the Force Die, I found that there's only one facing with two Dark Side pips and three facings with two Light Side pips, meaning that while Dark Side users activate more often, Light Side users get more extra effects of their powers off (especially since there's no way I can find to get more than two Force Dice as a Force Exile).
Half-cost Force Powers are going to lead to OP players very quickly, and a very unhappy rest-of-the-party when the DS force user is just mowing down everyone.
I'm inclined to agree. The Dark Side makes it easier to use a power (hence giving you 7/12 chances to activate it rather than 5/12), this is a good enough way to show how it is easier... but it's also not actually more powerful in the EotE system. When looking over the Force Die, I found that there's only one facing with two Dark Side pips and three facings with two Light Side pips, meaning that while Dark Side users activate more often, Light Side users get more extra effects of their powers off (especially since there's no way I can find to get more than two Force Dice as a Force Exile).
Which does work exactly as it is inteded to work. Finally the character will be hated by the group, resulting in an epic battle where the rest of the party finally tries to dispatch the dark sider.
I was never a fan of the WEG dark side/light side point system but it was interesting and it spawned a lot of interesting discussions about good and evil and moral in itself. And that is IMO a very important part of Star Wars. To create a system that represents the force with the "lowest common denominator" apporach takes that away.
Edited by ThomsonWhich does work exactly as it is inteded to work. Finally the character will be hated by the group, resulting in an epic battle where the rest of the party finally tries to dispatch the dark sider.I was never a fan of the WEG dark side/light side point system but it was interesting and it spawned a lot of interesting discussions about good and evil and moral in itself. And that is IMO a very important part of Star Wars. To create a system that represents the force with the "lowest common denominator" apporach takes that away.
Sounds like you'd just better off not allowing Force-users in your game at all, if you've got that strong of a disliking of them.
Sounds like you'd just better off not allowing Force-users in your game at all, if you've got that strong of a disliking of them.Which does work exactly as it is inteded to work. Finally the character will be hated by the group, resulting in an epic battle where the rest of the party finally tries to dispatch the dark sider.
I was never a fan of the WEG dark side/light side point system but it was interesting and it spawned a lot of interesting discussions about good and evil and moral in itself. And that is IMO a very important part of Star Wars. To create a system that represents the force with the "lowest common denominator" apporach takes that away.
And I want a system that reflects that struggle. Getting strain and flipping tokens has no consequences beyond the end of the session. In Edge of Empire, taking part in a combat may have more dire consequences for any character than playing with the Dark Side for a Jedi.
And the excuse to leave that to "story telling" would be similar to say you don't need rules for injury because you can do that with story telling as well.
I can understand that decision, because - as I said before - the idea that moral choices have any real hard consequences is not without any controversy.
But it is something that IMO makes Star Wars really Star Wars.
P.S.: And I find it pretty interesting that some seem to assume that being able to buy force powers at half cost would result in every player having no problems doing it, even if it means that their character would become a dark sider. Players who do this IMO do not "deserve" to play a light side character 
Well I like force users very much. And I want them to have a choice between the light side and the dark side, between an easy way to power that leads to destruction and a way to enlightenment that is for the good of the others, the galaxy and finally themselves.
The tone of your posts very strongly suggested otherwise, particularly about having the rest of the players turn on one of their own and attack that one player's character. Maybe our play styles are very different, but I prefer that such antagonistic behavior between players not ever show up at my table.
Also remember that Force-users, light or dark, are not a primary focus of EotE, a very deliberate design choice on FFG's part. Thus, there's not really any major rules covering a fall to the dark side beyond spending a Destiny Point and suffering Strain to convert Dark Side pips to Light Side pips and that sidebar about Dark Side Force-users.
As Lorne pointed out, the temptation of the dark side is already there, since most players are going to need to use those Dark Side pips in order to activate their powers, especially when they've only got a Force Rating of 1. So there's the immediate drawbacks of spending a Destiny Point (which can be an issue if there's very few Light Side points left in the pool) and having to suffer Strain (reflecting the mental duress and anguish that comes from such stressful situations).
The only thing missing in terms of this game are long-lasting consequences, although being a dark side Force-user means that unless you're rolling 3 or more Force dice, you're usually going to be limited to a basic power effect one upgrade since the dark side facings on the Force die only provide 1 Force Point compared to most of the light side facings providing 2 Force Points.
In WEG's d6 and WotC's Saga Edition, the long-term consequence was "character becomes an NPC" with not a lot of benefit along the way for having "dark side points," and WEG even had it be a random roll to see if you'd fall, meaning that a PC could very well become an NPC upon earning their second Dark Side Point (since you had to roll less than your current Dark Side score in order to fall). OCR/RCR had penalties applied depending on how close to your Wisdom score your Dark Side Point total was that affected your ability to use Force skills depending on if they were light or dark. Frankly, it seems none of those are really attractive, especially as the current crop of Force powers in EotE are generally "neutral" in terms of light vs. dark.
I also know that some gamers used a Dark Side score as a measuring stick of how evil could they go before they went too far. Case in point, first season of the Real Gamers' Podcast, the guy playing a Jedi horrifically metagamed his Dark Side score and exploited the GM's lack of familiarity with some of the rules to use Dark Side powers left and right, but never mechanically fall to the dark side.
The tone of your posts very strongly suggested otherwise, particularly about having the rest of the players turn on one of their own and attack that one player's character. Maybe our play styles are very different, but I prefer that such antagonistic behavior between players not ever show up at my table.Well I like force users very much. And I want them to have a choice between the light side and the dark side, between an easy way to power that leads to destruction and a way to enlightenment that is for the good of the others, the galaxy and finally themselves.
However, a player buying dark side powers for his character at half cost without limiting himself should be aware that he may cause an inbalance on the table... I just was saying that if this results in a conflict within the party it reflects what the dark side does pretty well...
I can understand that a group does not want to take a game to the level where the dark side does in game terms exactly what it does in the SW Universe (giving power faster) because that means that the player himself is tempted by the power the dark side gives to his character... but I like to RPG not only for recreation but also to find something out about my own real world character and the personalities of my real world friends
Also remember that Force-users, light or dark, are not a primary focus of EotE, a very deliberate design choice on FFG's part. Thus, there's not really any major rules covering a fall to the dark side beyond spending a Destiny Point and suffering Strain to convert Dark Side pips to Light Side pips and that sidebar about Dark Side Force-users.
I really don't think my quick and dirty sketch of a dark side system would work... but I just wanted to show in what direction I would like the "real" force system to develop.
As Lorne pointed out, the temptation of the dark side is already there...
In WEG's d6 and WotC's Saga Edition...
And the "becoming an NPC" thing reflected pretty well that you loose yourself when you finally fall to the dark side.
or something like that.
That's the beauty of the EotE system -- the lure of the dark side is already there due to the fact that 7 of 12 faces of the Force Die have dark pips. The temptation to use those only dissipates when you have sufficient Force Rating to provide you with all the light pips you need.
Thing is, once you get past 3 dice, it works out to be mathematically even odds...
Sure, there are 7 faces of dark, and 5 of light, but the light side faces tend to be more powerful.
1+1+1+1+1+1+2 = 8 dark side force
1+1+2+2+2 = 8 light side force.
With 1 die, yes, you're more likely to have usable dark side force. 7/12 chance of Dark Side only.
With 2 dice, 49/144 (34.0%) of dark side only, 70/144 (48.6%) of both (1d each), and 25/144 (17.4%) of light-side only.
With 3 dice, 343/1728 (19.8%) dark side only, 735/1728 (42.5%) of 1 die on white, 525/1728 (30.4%) of two dice on white, and 125/1728 (7.2%) of all three on white.
The Dark Side is more consistent, but less powerful.
3 force dice odds (of 1726) Dark Light Side_______________________________________ Side 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 0 0 0 0 8 36 54 27 1 0 0 72 216 162 0 0 2 0 216 336 36 27 0 0 3 216 72 108 0 0 0 0 4 108 6 9 0 0 0 0 5 18 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
At 3 force dice, you're more likely to get 3+ Light Side than 3+ dark side (538 DS vs 566 LS).
Edited by aramisIf I'm going to allow force users, I'm going to make them track dark side use in session. For every destiny used to use dark side results, that's a 1% chance of a dark side notice. It resets every session.
When they are noticed, they acquire a temptation score at 5%. It's almost like obligation, but doesn't affect the others, and is rolled separately. When triggers, it affects stress, and they get a "call on the dark side" token. Calling on the Dark Side increases temptation by the number of dark force used, but allows using twice the rolled dark side force for no stress and no destiny flip; it also adds 1d10 to temptation. The stress penalty goes away when it is used. Alternatively, they can roleplay finding a way of atoning - meditation, study, consulting a light-side mentor for help, losing at least a week of character time, give up the token, and 1 point of temptation.
If Temptation hits/crosses 100, they turn, gaining a force die, but no longer gaining any further temptation activations. They also use destiny & stress for light-side results; they increase temptation by 1 for every time they use destiny to boost force abilities. The Temptation score can be reduced only with help of a non-dark-side force user. How much, how fast, is something I've not considered yet, but since I don't want people playing true dark-side users in my games it's also a non-issue.