Armorken said:

On this point I feel it should be Galactica. The Cylon player has been a Galactica member, or otherwise on Galactica a lot. The Human fleet Cylon location represents all the sabotage the Cylon player commited, which is activated by that Cylon location. Galactica was more open than Pegasus, although I know there were attempts to sabotage Pegasus in the TV show. Also, the rules say Pegasus is attacked by Cylon ships before Galactica, but the rules don't say that the Human fleet Cylon location can attack Pegasus. I think it risks unbalancing the game against the HUmans. So I have to rule that one cannot use the Human fleet location against Pegasus

Hmm... I'm not sure about this. It heavily depends on what we are aiming for. Pegasus is dead after three damages, so in a six player game where the sympatisant ends up as the third Cylon and all three Cylons sit next to each other they have a good shot blowing Pegasus to heavens (very hypothetical). Also it makes things more difficult rule wise because all players have to be told (and remember) that 'Human Fleet' does something differnt than is written on the board.

On the other front we are set I think. It's a definitive go for +1 Moral instead of a civilian ship.

@ Dan & Armorken: How did the 'Power Struggle' turn out? Was it to easy/difficult or just right?

CaptNeo said:

Captain, you didn't answer if the " heavy assault" Cylon crisis card should fire at Pegasus if possible. galactica is on the card, but there was no expansion when the basic rules were written. I think Pegasus should be attacked, as per the expansion rules. Opinions?

The Cain crisis card is good. If Pegasus is destroyed, should we discard the card? One could argue the power struggle between Cain and the Admiral is not just about which Battlestar leads, but what type of strategy the humans should have. One could imagine Cain transferring her flag to Galactica and the power struggle continuing. Or we could imagine that it is discarded when Pegasus is destroyed, humans stop fighting internally, etc. If we discard the Cain card for losing Pegasus, it is of course easier for the humans, and harder if the power struggle continues. Both can be argued, but the problem hasn't come up for me. Opinions?

Dan said:

I lean towards keeping the card in play, even if Pegasus is destroyed. Only discard the card if there is a change in Admiral, by Brigging, or Cylon revelation

Dan said:

Sorry about that. So the Basestars get activated, simply do what you would always do. If Pegasus is near by, she takes the beating.

The Crisis Card/Pegasus destruction is an interesting issue. The show suggests, that the power struggle would stop when the Cylons attack. But this makes no sense for the expansion because the crisis is designed to keep the nuclear tokens hostage until the players free their Commander in Chief.

Again my request for you who own the English version of the game, please mail me the exact text from the Kobol Destination Card, so I can label New Caprica right. Thanks a lot.

Then the issue of where and when to trigger Pegasus' arrival: Should we keep it as it is, or use another trigger mechanism that does not depend on revealing a specific card from the crisis deck?

Tomorrow there should be a new version with the new Pegasus destination card and updated FAQ.

Kobol card

Kobol

Resolve when the following distance is travelled:

4 :Sleeper agent phase

8 :The next time the fleet jumps, the humans win the game [do not draw a destination card].

I think the Cain crisis card should not be discarded even if Pegasus is destroyed

I like the game now, where you start for Kobol, but it can change if Pegasus is discovered. This means if you are scouting, at you are at or near 8 distance, you might not want to find Pegasus if you are human. Or if you are a Cylon player, hidden or not, you might have your reasons for wanting Pegasus, to increase distance to 11, or putting Pegasus at the bottom or discarding, as you can do with Scouting or the Cylon Caprica location. You might want to discard if Galactica has taken a beating and the Cylons are winning militarily, or otherwise don't want the humans to get the boost in resources. It is fluid whether either side wants Pegasus.

I can take my last game as a good example of why the expansion is very good as is. As the Admiral, I chose a 3 fuel 3 distance first pick, before Pegasus, over a 2 distance with a possibility of fuel. Getting Pegasus, we had to change strategy to get fuel from the "1" planets. Had I known ahead of time we were going to 11 distance and New Caprica would have changed my decision. Not knowing is cool, and adds a layer to strategy. I remind that even with the change in strategy, the humans still made 11 distance, even though they lost on morale

I don't play with sympathiser. Ever. Don't like it at all. I think not doing so works especially well with Pegasus. check out the official rule variants, on the game's website. People who are having a hard time playing humans should check that out. My games are 50-50. It even says no sympathiser gives a little boost to Humans. people who are frustrated humans, please try the official no sympathiser variant.

The reason why I suggested, and it was accepted, to put the Cain crisis card in the 2nd quarter of the deck is to give a good chance for it coming up. but you don't know for sure. In the show, Pegasus was a surprise which changed things, which is one of many reasons why it works well in the expansion.

But I do understand the desire to increase the chances even more of finding Pegasus. Divide the deck into 5ths instead of 4ths, and put the Cain Crisis Card in the 2nd fifth. I don't yet see the need to do that, or change the rule from dividing the deck in 4ths. I want some delay before finding Pegasus, the delay works thematically and mechanically. I was against dividing the deck into 3rds, because i just know the numbers of Crisis cards that are normally played, and the middle third would take too long to find her, and probably not at all.

Hope this helps

Thanks. I'm working the changes in right now.

Here is another idea that I had last night.

The Cylons have a hard time to ever cause much trouble boarding the ship. What about changing the space combat rules in a way that Heavy raiders can also board Pegasus (and then again a Centurion token is placed on the boarding track). This would reduce the boarding process by One or two Heavy Raider activations.

Another possibility would be the Pegasus Brig. Instead of drawing and destroying a civilian ship it could also advance or place a centurion marker on the boarding track (themewise: Admiral Cains torture ultimately led to her death and the detonation of a nuke on Cloud Nine).

Do you think one of these could work to balance out the advantages of Pegasus? Maybe one could then reduce the final jump distance to 10 and shorten the duration of the game.

CaptNeo said:

1. I haven't found the expansion unbalanced, yet! There are advantages for the Cylons to have a jump to 11, especially when resource management is more of an issue. a hidden Cylon can also, as an Admiral, destroy civilian ships, and as anyone, try to force a Skill check to take Vipers off the board. It does have balance, and of course a revealed Cylon can start drawing two Crisis cards from the Cylon Caprica location, in order to find, or discard, Pegasus according to his needs. As I have said previously, it is fluid for both sides whether they want Pegasus found

All expansions make a game longer. This expansion does not make it much longer, to 11 is 1-3 extra jumps. Remember, one is probably getting a population boost from the civilian ships one draws for Pegasus' resources. That makes an early "-3 population" jump easier. It makes very good sense thematically that going to New Caprica is a little longer. 11 isn't that bad. I like that is is 3 more than Kobol, so a "3" jump is attractive. it should not be less than 11.

Would you have a Centurion boarding track on the Pegasus board? And do you have to go to Galactica's Armoury to shoot at boarders on Pegasus? That is starting to be complicated. I like simple and "elegant", like it is so far!

Pegasus Brig advancing or placing a Boarder? Then it is just negative. Destroying a ship to look at a Loyalty card isn't just negative, as it is possible to have surplus population (a macabre point of view, I know) to sacrifice in order to look at Loyalty cards. Of course destroying ships is also negative, but it isn't just negative, therefore there is balance.

I don't see in any of the posts where they are saying Pegasus unbalances the game against the Cylons. I think you resolved balance issues by cutting the destination value of Pegasus, changing the hit numbers needed for Pegasus, the Cain location card and all other changes. I think you should change the Pegasus resources to 1 Fuel, Food and Morale, and draw two ships, as previously discussed. Let people playtest and explore whether both sides want to find Pegasus , and dealing with resource management.

As for the difficulty with destroying Pegasus, it only needs 3 hits, and all damage goes to a location, whereas Galactica has 6 locations to damage, a couple locations which cannot be damaged, and two damage tokens which are resources and act as a buffer for Galactica, even though losing resources has its own disadvantages. Two Basestars shooting at Pegasus, from cards and from a Cylon Player, can quickly bring Pegasus down.

Please take my opposition to your proposed changes in your post as constructive, and as a compliment that small changes to the numbers are all that's needed! You have done a great job.

OK, then let's keep it as it is :-)

I think I'll release v0.4 will be the last one before v1.0 which should primarily be about polishing graphics right now. The new version should be up and running.

Corrections

The card for Pegasus is good, extra morale, two ships. But the rules say three ships. You should correct the rules to two ships. Also correct to two ships in the FAQ

Pegasus card: Morale and Moral are two different words in English. You should have "Morale". Moral is a comment about morality! A relevant topic in BSG, but more for the role-playing part than the game-mechanics side

Thoughts:

I think FAQ should answer, as we have on the Forum, that Pegasus is attacked if possible by cards that say "Basestar attacks Galactica" like the Heavy Assault card

I think FAQ should answer, as we have in the Forum, that Human Fleet Cylon location affects only Galactica. Basically, the board doesn't change.

I think FAQ should answer, as we have on the Forum, that the Cain card is not discarded if Pegasus destroyed. It represents a huge fight over the direction over the fleet, not just an extra Battlestar.

I can imagine a question about "Resurrection ship" and the number needed for distance and giving loyalty cards. No change to the text on the board is the rule

Doh! I compiled the updated Rules into the Relaese folder for v0.31 instead of v0.4 on my hard drive were I keep all versions. So actually the rules and FAQ were the same as v0.31. Thanks for watching out.

I have not addressed the Ressurection Ship, yet. It seems that the 7 distance should be replaced with 9 or 10 if Pegasus shows up. Any suggestions?

CaptNeo said:

No, I like the clean rule "the text on the board doesn't change". If the Cylon player wants to take advantage of Resurrection ship, either because he has the other Cylon loyalty card, or because he wants to create suspicion be giving an innocent "You are not a Cylon" card, then he has to do it before the distance on the Resurrection ship Cylon location

Reasons: As you said for another Cylon space, Human fleet, it is hard to remember to change what is written on the board

Also: It is unnecessary to change because it is a restriction the Cylon has to live with. He doesn't know (or they don't know) for sure if Pegasus is coming up, just as the humans don't know if Pegasus is coming up. If the humans waste too much fuel or other resources, or get their civilian ships destroyed thus getting less resources from Pegasus, too bad for them. if the Cylons don't use Resurrection when they should, too bad for them

Keep it clean, Captain!

Again, great job.

Oi! I take a few days away from internet life and I miss a new release! Everything looks pretty good in this update. I do have a couple questions.

What is the timeframe for playtesting on this release? I'm not to sure when I can get a group together to play again, probably not until friday or sat at the earliest.

Do we see this expansion as it is, in a close proximity to what it will look like in V 1.0? Is there plans of new features being added, or are the next releases until 1.0 going to be the tweaked, balanced and perfected version of what is here now? ie: add expanded features to versions after 1.0. I ask this because at the playtest, I got one big question and one big statement. What features are going to be added? And: This is pretty well balanced for beta.

-K

Armorken said:

Playtest when you can. I have a few times. I don't know what you mean by V 1.0. V 1.0 was the first draft, we are at 4.1 now, and it is the best. Use 4.1

CaptNeo said:

By V 1.0 I mean the full, unbuggy release. See right now its at 0.41, not 4.1 Big diff. Granted my techy brain sees all releases working in this manner, but I'm sure the capt'in with share some enlightenment on this. At point 0.41 this is still far from a full release, but numbers could always be adjusted if playtesting fixes all the problems first.

Hi,

I think I'll wait for a while until we have some more play testing feedback for this one. If nothing else comes up, I'd say, this v0.41 is the last one before we jump to v1.0.

If I had the time I'd love to make the Pegasus board match the graphical style of the main board. Unfortunately, scanning the original board did not produce satisfactory results and cleaning up the scans has proven to be pretty hard. So I think that won't be in the final release unless someone feels called to do so.

Take all the time you want for testing this one, right now the only thing that is going to be added in v1.0 is an updated FAQ (refer to Dan's comment regarding not changing any rules/actions written on the board), that why I guess the materials are not likely to change now..

So far, big thanks especially to you two for the continued feedback and support. It was a lot of fun so far. That being said: I'm open for any reasonable additions to the expansion, in which case we could iterate through versions v0.5, and further. I was thinking briefly about a ressurection ship for the Cylons to appear during space combat e.g., but as Dan pointed out correctly, cluttering this expansion won't accomplish anything.

I played again with the expansion yesterday. No complaints, even though we lost big time! We lacked the two ships to draw for Pegasus, because the Cylon player (3 players total) had destroyed ships and we had ships out. Shows rules work for the Cylons. We also had Pegasus on the wrong side! Good we had that extra morale from Pegasus. Cylon player beat us on our largest resource, population. And not because of "-3" jumps

Some problems I see, not having playtested this:

1. Fuel will be a bigger problem for humans than it already is. You are adding 3 distance for them to cover but only giving them 1 Fuel (MAYBE 1 more Fuel if they get lucky with the civ ships). I would give them 2 Fuel and take away their extra Food or Morale or one of the Civ Ships.

2. I don't think there should be more ways to look at Loyalty Cards. Even balanced with the fact that only the Admiral can do it, and at the cost of a Civ Ship. The Loyalty Cards are too core to the gameplay to give a repeatable and direct way of looking at them. As it stands the only way to look at Loyalty Cards is through getting one of a small number of cards in the Crisis Deck (and the Quorum Deck?) or by using Baltar's OPG.

3. If the Admiral Cain card is in the Crisis Deck, it can be bottom-decked. That seems like a VERY powerful choice for someone to make with a Scout or Character Ability. I would make the card trigger automatically after the Sleeper Agent Phase. There would be no need for the Kobal card at all. Just start with the New Caprica card as your Destination.

Locutus Zero said:

I have been involved with playtesting and rules. May I answer some points?

1. Fuel. I have mentioned, but it is worth saying again, that resource mangement is an issue. The 1 destination planets usually give a chance for fuel, one of the 2's and one crisis card does. Have to get those.If You play the fastest way to 11 distance to New Caprica, with the easiest use of fuel, without gaining any fuel, you should have 3 left over. This does mean choosing things like 3 distance, Cylon ambush. That only takes one fuel. Norammly a very bad card, not so bad with two battlestars!

2. It is balanced to sacrifice a ship for a Loaylty peek, it is themaitc to be able to destory civ ships with Pegasus, and I have not found it unbalanced. It adds a new wrinkle, but you need civ ships on the board to do it. That involves a Cylon attack. A tough call to use. It doesn't get used more thanh the odd card or ability, and if you have apsycho Admairal, well, brig them! Try it and see, and give feedback. It is appreciated.

3. It was a choice to be able to avoid the cain card. It is fluid whether EITHER side wants Pegasus. The Cylons could be hammering Galactica, or humans generally, they don't want the extra help of Pegasus coming. Or the humans could be doing just fine, close to 8 distance, then they don't need the headache Pegasus can give with 3 extra distance and the power struggle. It can seem unusual to have an expansion one does not have a guarantee of playing, but it adds more strategy to have it fluid. And it isn't easy to ignore. But yes, it is possible.

Playtest and see. Look forward to your reports

Whohoo! Just one day passes that I do not watch this post and Dan takes over public relations

@ Locutus Zero: The points you mentioned have been discussed in length and the expansion now reflects these discussions and the findings from a few test sessions. Although I appreciate you taking some time to give your thoughts about the concept of the expansion, it would be great to have some more constructive feedback from actual sessions to improve upon this version. I kindly encourage you to do so and comment on the possible problems you mentioned from that experience.

I just wanted to say that I just read the rules and love them. I can't wait to play with them. They are so appropriate to the show and maintains the feel of the game with out changing to much.

Now I have to wait for my gamers to get to that part of the show!

Nicely done.

Sounds like I'll finally get to play again this week! (I hope) I'll be spending the next week down the road in the town I'm from, so I'll be able to grab up plenty of friends to play. Its been too long!

If I do play with this one group of friends it'll be all new players, so I'll probably have to place Cain at the bottom of the second quarter. hmmmmm........

Armorken said:

As long as you know you're cheating , you are supposed to shuffle...

I'll be testing the expansion on monday with my group. They have three games on their belt now and I think it's time to do some testing myself.

A new question regarding the "Cylon Detector Sabotage": Should the FAQ state, that Pegasus' Brig can no longer be used after the crisis was failed, or can the cylons stil use this location in order to destroy civilian ships?