Would you allow a starting PC to have all his starting weapons built-in per the sidebar in the droid section? Or would you make them use the cybernetic rules to do so?

My concern is in fairness to other characters, they would have to spend significant resources to get that benefit whereas a starting PC droid can simply say, its built-in.

Specifically the player wants to build a droid in homage to an enemy droid I had them fight in Saga edition, which is touching but I can't find a way to build it as a first level PC.

He wants built-in/retractable vibroclaws. I originally built them with the stats of a vibroblade (in Saga) and he wants the mono-molecular edge and serrated edges.

He initially had just one and a built in blaster carbine and when I started looking into it I found the cybernetic weapon add on and ruled that should be used instead.

This is flavor. If something feels like an exploit, it probably is.

The sidebar is totally left in the purview of the GM. So if you want to allow it using cyberweapon implant rules, that is fine. I think the sidebar purposely left out weapons specifically so that GMs could decide how they want them in their game. Besides, as long as he is paying for them, what is the real issue here? The fact that he can hide them? Most players are always going to come up with ways to sneak weapons so it isn't that much off an advantage. And most people that don't want weapons brought in somewhere are probably well aware of droids with built-in weapons, hidden or not. As a GM you can make it really difficult on the players if you want to. So you have to decide what is ok.

It depends on whether it's retractable or not. If they have gun arms – guns instead of hands – then no I wouldn't have them pay more (it makes life harder than just owning guns).

If they were retractable, it would depend on if they are well hidden. On the one hand, they could be as concealable as a normal weapon, which doesn't require an extra expenditure (since anyone can hide a gun in their clothes that way). It would still take a maneuver to deploy it (without Quick Draw).

If they are just as concealable as cybernetic weapons, then I'd make them pay for that.

I agree with you MouthyMerc, and it is what I told my player, that it was left vague to be decided by the GM. Yet, my primary issue is that it would take a non-droid PC 4,000 credits for such a enhancement, something not available to a starting PC, yet droids can get it with a hand wave. Seems a little too good.

I am more ok with the hand wave of having the weapon replace the limb, instead of it being retractable.

Also, what is the limit?

and why mention that a droid can only have 6 cybernetic attachments?

If a PC can simply buy a piece of equipment and say that it is built in, then why would a droid ever get cybernetics?

Let the droid buy his gear. He has 1500cr to spend, he buys a blaster carbine, padded armor, etc. Now, instead of the non-droid PCs, he can choose to have his starter gear grafted onto his body but without the bonuses of being a cybernetic weapon. It adds half the encumbrance of the standard version of that wepon (to make up for the loss of a hand) but he can't deploy it as an incidental and he can be "disarmed" (you'll have to be creative here).

The thing he needs to realize is that this is a starting character. He shouldn't have the ideal character already or he has nowhere to build to. To explain from an RP standpoint, he had the graft done by a back alley mechanic who just spot welded it in places. It has no deployment servos so he has to ready it like anyone else. If he's hit in the arm by a blaster shot, it could cause the mechanism to twist or slip equivalent to a disarm.

Eventually, if he wants to get it upgraded by a real mechanic, he can pay the full cost of the enhancement to gain the benefits of a real cybernetic weapon. Until then, its the weapon he bought, jury rigged onto his arm.

I don't necessarily see a problem with it. But if he's going to leverage the unique nature of the droid, then you as a GM should feel free to as well. After all, they invented restraining bolts for a reason...

Thematically, let them do whatever they want with it. If their droid has retractable vibro-claws that each count as a vibrosword, that's fine. But, each one is going to weigh the same as a vibrosword for the purposes of encumberance, and they wouldn't be able to effectively hide the fact that they have them. If they were vibro-knives instead, however, they would be that much easier to conceal. But, an opposed perception check to find their weapons wouldn't be any better for a droid with the knives inside his arms to someone with the knives elsewhere.

It is the same idea that I see with people in heavy armor. They want their vibroknife to be a built-in knuckleplate blade? Sure. Backpack is actually a bunch of storage space in their cloak? Why not? Just use the same rules as you would for any other character, but let them describe it with the narrative flair that makes EotE EotE.

Does the droid's base model come with built in weapons as standard?

If yes, then the player should have them.

If no, they have to buy them.

I agree with much of what has been said. I think it comes down to how much benefit does the built in weapon give them. First of all if it is built in then they can't put it down. I built a heavy battle droid with a light repeating Blaster, combine that with his armor (which I think you sort of have to allow to be built in since droids don't "wear" things) and his encumbrance is pretty much used up (and he has a really high strength).

The main advantage droids get from thing being built in is the difficulty to disarm them. And I don't see it happening much in combat. But I don't think it is that difficult for a villain to remove those weapons if they disabled or captured the droid. I think it could be a pretty standard mechanics check, or since he is a droid the baddies could just cut off his arm with a a sci-fi saw. That would be pretty gruesome thing to do to a non-droid player.

If it really is that big of a deal, make them use up one of the weapon's Hard Points to give them a custom attachment that doesn't let them get disarmed (but a sunder would still destroy it.)

Or, make it so if someone spends their 3 advantages or a triumph to disarm them, it instead sunders the weapon one step.

Or just treat it like a normal weapon that got shoddily grafted onto them and gains no benefits.

If they want to spend the gold to gain the cybernetic bonuses, it represents them visiting a REAL mechanic and getting it attached and mounted properly. This is an easy solution.

It should be mentioned that the cybernetic version is just a light blaster that retracts completely in the arm. There's no mounting a carbine in your arm (at least as a non-droid). The benefit really is just total concealment.

Actually that's a good point. Built-in equipment does not mean concealed. Armor makes the droid more bulky, electrobinoculars mean big googly eyes, and carbine means the blaster is attached to the arm in plain sight. This may mean that if the characters go in somewhere where weapons are not allowed, that the droid may need to be left behind since he can not be disarmed too easily.

Since everyone else seems to think it is no big deal I am allowing him to have whatever he wants: retractable claws treated as vibroknives for damage purposes with the mono-molecular and serrated attachments.

Personally, I still feel it is exploiting the intent of that sidebar/rule.

Since everyone else seems to think it is no big deal I am allowing him to have whatever he wants: retractable claws treated as vibroknives for damage purposes with the mono-molecular and serrated attachments.

Personally, I still feel it is exploiting the intent of that sidebar/rule.

I think the question is what does the player gain from doing this that is exploitive?

Since everyone else seems to think it is no big deal I am allowing him to have whatever he wants: retractable claws treated as vibroknives for damage purposes with the mono-molecular and serrated attachments.

Personally, I still feel it is exploiting the intent of that sidebar/rule.

I think the question is what does the player gain from doing this that is exploitive?

Yeah, my feeling on this is that having integrated equipment is just another perk of being a droid.

Hands-free comlink? Armor that you don't need to worry about donning? Photoreceptors that function as macrobinoculars? All fair game.

Really, EotE is a game about narrative, not about minutiae. I don't see how it breaks the game to have a character who has eyes that can scan the far distance, or who can make use of a 100 credit hand scanner by virtue of just using its innate droid scanners. It's flavor. It makes sense.

An installed heavy repeating blaster? Well, at that point, logic dictates that it's going to be a fairly obvious upgrade if your droid is packing internal killbot upgrades.

Let common sense rule the day.

I just played a giant assault/bodyguard droid that had two built-in blaster hands that functioned as a Heavy Blaster Rifle. And it was AWESOME.

It should be mentioned that the cybernetic version is just a light blaster that retracts completely in the arm. There's no mounting a carbine in your arm (at least as a non-droid). The benefit really is just total concealment.

Total concealment (imporant in some cases, not something to be given for free), cannot be disarmed, removed or dropped (also important) but (most importantly) can be deployed as an incidental (page 174, cybernetic weapon). Those three combined are a pretty big bonus (hence the cost).

Since everyone else seems to think it is no big deal I am allowing him to have whatever he wants: retractable claws treated as vibroknives for damage purposes with the mono-molecular and serrated attachments.

Personally, I still feel it is exploiting the intent of that sidebar/rule.

I don't think anyone indicated it wasn't a big deal. Personally, I think its broken to give him all that and the attachments. Its expensive and not remotely akin to what the other PCs get. Tell him to buy vibroknives. Charge him for two vibroknives. He can choose to have them attached but he doesn't get to use his hands (replaced by vibroknives). He has to ready them (like a normal weapon) he can be disarmed (RP: crappy construction). No attachments. He can save up to buy the attachments like anyone else. He can save up to buy a cybernetic rig to get incidental deployment, disarm protect and hands (can be concealed).

This is easy to explain and keeps it balanced for everyone else. Remind him this is a STARTING character. Fresh in the world, working his way up. He's not creating a veteran assassin who decides to join a group of noobs.

Yeah, my feeling on this is that having integrated equipment is just another perk of being a droid.

Hands-free comlink? Armor that you don't need to worry about donning? Photoreceptors that function as macrobinoculars? All fair game.

Really, EotE is a game about narrative, not about minutiae. I don't see how it breaks the game to have a character who has eyes that can scan the far distance, or who can make use of a 100 credit hand scanner by virtue of just using its innate droid scanners. It's flavor. It makes sense.

An installed heavy repeating blaster? Well, at that point, logic dictates that it's going to be a fairly obvious upgrade if your droid is packing internal killbot upgrades.

Let common sense rule the day.

Integrating the starting gear for the droid is a non-issue. He buys macrobinoculars, he can roleplay them as attached to his head. Everyone knows he has them, no issue. Its when he gets weapons plus a 4,000 credit bonus and all the stuff that comes with it. When you can simply and easily give him the built in flavor without a free 4,000 credit attachment, why not?

I'm all for flavor and narrative but starting gear should still be balanced to a certain extent.

Yeah, my feeling on this is that having integrated equipment is just another perk of being a droid.

Hands-free comlink? Armor that you don't need to worry about donning? Photoreceptors that function as macrobinoculars? All fair game.

Really, EotE is a game about narrative, not about minutiae. I don't see how it breaks the game to have a character who has eyes that can scan the far distance, or who can make use of a 100 credit hand scanner by virtue of just using its innate droid scanners. It's flavor. It makes sense.

An installed heavy repeating blaster? Well, at that point, logic dictates that it's going to be a fairly obvious upgrade if your droid is packing internal killbot upgrades.

Let common sense rule the day.

Integrating the starting gear for the droid is a non-issue. He buys macrobinoculars, he can roleplay them as attached to his head. Everyone knows he has them, no issue. Its when he gets weapons plus a 4,000 credit bonus and all the stuff that comes with it. When you can simply and easily give him the built in flavor without a free 4,000 credit attachment, why not?

I'm all for flavor and narrative but starting gear should still be balanced to a certain extent.

I just don't see what the difference is if everything else is the same. Player wants vibroclaws, ok but retracted it will be concealable as a encumbrance 1 item and take a maneuver to ready (unless they use Quick Draw). What is the difference between that and a normal character who just has concealable knives?

Yeah, my feeling on this is that having integrated equipment is just another perk of being a droid.

Hands-free comlink? Armor that you don't need to worry about donning? Photoreceptors that function as macrobinoculars? All fair game.

Really, EotE is a game about narrative, not about minutiae. I don't see how it breaks the game to have a character who has eyes that can scan the far distance, or who can make use of a 100 credit hand scanner by virtue of just using its innate droid scanners. It's flavor. It makes sense.

An installed heavy repeating blaster? Well, at that point, logic dictates that it's going to be a fairly obvious upgrade if your droid is packing internal killbot upgrades.

Let common sense rule the day.

Integrating the starting gear for the droid is a non-issue. He buys macrobinoculars, he can roleplay them as attached to his head. Everyone knows he has them, no issue. Its when he gets weapons plus a 4,000 credit bonus and all the stuff that comes with it. When you can simply and easily give him the built in flavor without a free 4,000 credit attachment, why not?

I'm all for flavor and narrative but starting gear should still be balanced to a certain extent.

Well, when I think about droids with built-in weaponry, I think of this:

...where, okay, yeah, you've got a blaster built into your arm, but it's obvious that it's there. It's not the same as a cybernetic weapon that has the benefits of being concealed.

In this case, would the droid benefit from not needing to use a maneuver to 'draw' his weapon? Sure. Are there massive setting penalties for being an always-armed attack droid? Also sure. I don't see this as unbalanced.

For a droid to have the benefits of a concealed weapon, I'd charge them the cost of the cybernetic weapon upgrade; the droid sidebar says nothing about the built-in upgrades giving you carte blanche to surpass major rules concerns.

I would give the droid he same budget as any other PC. If he can afford vibrio blades, blaster carbine, etc then he has them. If he wants them "built in" then he has that, but mechanically they function the same as any other character's equipment.

He still has to ready them, can still be disarmed, and they are only as "concealed" as a non-droid's similar weapons would be.

Retractable vibro blades are no problem to me. Functionally they could be the same as another character carrying a vibro knife in a forearm sheath or wearing a vibrosword at his hip. A "built in" blaster carbine is going to be obviously a blaster carbine attached to the droid, not a hidden surprise.

For the record he is taking +10 obligation for the 2500 credits (plus the starting 500) to purchase the two vibroknives and attachments, all legal, and having them "built in" per the sidebar, with a narrative description that they are retractable. He is not going to use a blaster rifle, built in or otherwise.