This is a really stupid question: But as an attacker, even if you don't win the challenge, the defender has to kill a participating character if you have more "Deadly" characters?

I never really read the rules doc, and just assumed you'd have to win . . .

Correct - there's no requirement to win - simply control the most participating characters with deadly. That may be a little unintuitive, but thankfully the rules are quite clear here!

There's another unintuitive oddity about deadly that the rules clarify. The attacking player must control the most participating characters with deadly (but not necessarily all participating as attackers), and the defending player chooses and kills a defending character (not necessarily one he controls) - so it's not all that uncommon for Walder Frey to wind up killing himself.

Unrelated but another keyword question: If I have 2 attackers, but only 1 with intimidate, could he actually nullify the STR on my other attacker?

Unrelated but another keyword question: If I have 2 attackers, but only 1 with intimidate, could he actually nullify the STR on my other attacker?

In fact, even if both had intimidate the question would be the same; you would only count the strength of the highest STR attacker (both if they have the same strength). Intimidate affects all participating characters, not just your opponent's, and not just those without intimidate.

This is a really stupid question: But as an attacker, even if you don't win the challenge, the defender has to kill a participating character if you have more "Deadly" characters?

I never really read the rules doc, and just assumed you'd have to win . . .

Perhaps its time to actually read the rules properly and the FAQ since they are both provided free by ffg?

Deadly only works if you double up on the flush and your opponent has no Kings.

That's what I assume anyway, I haven't read the rules either.

Omg!! LoL.

Go read the rules! Then come back here more confused and ask more questions!

Also, you forget to consider whether or not a Straight Flush triggers effects that are triggered by a Flush. Might need to rules link that.

Well, of course it does. A straight flush is most certainly a flush, even if a flush isn't necessarily a straight flush. Goes without saying

Correct - there's no requirement to win - simply control the most participating characters with deadly. That may be a little unintuitive, but thankfully the rules are quite clear here!

There's another unintuitive oddity about deadly that the rules clarify. The attacking player must control the most participating characters with deadly (but not necessarily all participating as attackers), and the defending player chooses and kills a defending character (not necessarily one he controls) - so it's not all that uncommon for Walder Frey to wind up killing himself.

That's a suprise to me!

Surely a deadly kills is simply determined by whether there are more deadly characters attacking than defending

Does this mean (bizarre scenario) that if I attack with zero deadlies and then add 2 deadly naval characters to the defending side, the defender would have to choose a kill a character for deadly (as 2 - 0 to the attacker)

Not sure of the use of the word Control here either - you could have naval attackers/defenders involved in the challenge which are not controlled by either the attacker or defender. Are they classed as being "controlled" by the attacker / defender if they are actually owned/controlled by a 3rd player?

Good to know the defender can kill a naval character who butts in on the challenge

Correct - there's no requirement to win - simply control the most participating characters with deadly. That may be a little unintuitive, but thankfully the rules are quite clear here!

There's another unintuitive oddity about deadly that the rules clarify. The attacking player must control the most participating characters with deadly (but not necessarily all participating as attackers), and the defending player chooses and kills a defending character (not necessarily one he controls) - so it's not all that uncommon for Walder Frey to wind up killing himself.

That's a suprise to me!

Surely a deadly kills is simply determined by whether there are more deadly characters attacking than defending

Does this mean (bizarre scenario) that if I attack with zero deadlies and then add 2 deadly naval characters to the defending side, the defender would have to choose a kill a character for deadly (as 2 - 0 to the attacker)

Not sure of the use of the word Control here either - you could have naval attackers/defenders involved in the challenge which are not controlled by either the attacker or defender. Are they classed as being "controlled" by the attacker / defender if they are actually owned/controlled by a 3rd player?

Good to know the defender can kill a naval character who butts in on the challenge

Your bizzare scenario is accurate, but he could choose to kill one of your precious naval deadly characters.

As for control, it matters for determining whether the defender has to kill a defending character (the attacking player must control more characters with deadly than any other player who controls characters involved in that challenge), but not for determining who dies. The defender can choose a defending character he controls, the attacker controls, or even a third party who jumped in with a helpful Greatjon Umber.

This is the bit which is really throwing me - I tend to play 3 person melee as opposed to joust

"the attacking player must control more characters with deadly than any other player who controls characters involved in that challenge"

Should than be ... than ALL other players combined?

But then again someone might kindly add a deadly naval character to my attackers - which leaves me totally confused

I'm feeling a bit stupid as this is something that use to be so simple - i.e. how may deadly attackers vs how many deadly defenders ... nothing to do with players, control etc, just a simple count

The wording on deadly is simple, the interpretation is fairly simple, the consequences, though, can be quite unintuitive.

During a challenge, if the attacking player controls the most participating characters with the “Deadly” keyword, the defending player must choose and kill a defending participating character after the challenge resolves.

The "most participating" you draw attention to is slightly poor wording on my part. When I say "more than any other", I mean no other player has as many or more deadly characters under their control in this challenge. I avoided "More than all others" because you do not need to have more deadly characters than the total number of deadly characters not controlled by you which are participating in the challenge.

It's important to note here that only the two people participating in the challenge are even allowed to declare naval attackers or defenders, as per the rules insert on naval enhancements:

"Any time after an attack is declared, the attacking

It's important to note here that only the two people participating in the challenge are even allowed to declare naval attackers or defenders, as per the rules insert on naval enhancements:

"Any time after an attack is declared, the attacking

or defending player can kneel a non-participating character with

a (Naval) enhancement on the matching challenge icon and declare it

as a (Naval) attacker or defender in that challenge."

Right, but there are other ways to get a deadly character into a challenge (Walder Frey, Greatjon Umber w/deadly from something) in which you are neither the attacker or defender.

Yes, but they are quite few and far between, so it won't often come up that you need to worry about 3 people having deadly characters in the challenge. I'm not saying it won't ever happen, I just noticed you guys talking about player 3 contributing naval characters to a challenge between players 1 and 2, so I figured I'd clear that up.

I think I muust have forgotten the Naval mechanic - I recently attacked someone and a 3rd player brought in all his naval characters to assist the defended ... which should not have been allowed

It was this illegal action which threw up all the possible deadly characters controlled by different people

Using a 3 player melee and Walder:

I attack with two small deadly characters - defender declares one large deadly defended and Walder Frey (controlled by 3rd player) comes in on the side of defenders

Does this result in the attacker controlled 2 deadly and the defender only one (or does the defender control 2 deadlies)

From what I have read I assume only 1 and therefor the defender must kill someone (presumably Walder)

I think I muust have forgotten the Naval mechanic - I recently attacked someone and a 3rd player brought in all his naval characters to assist the defended ... which should not have been allowed

It was this illegal action which threw up all the possible deadly characters controlled by different people

Using a 3 player melee and Walder:

I attack with two small deadly characters - defender declares one large deadly defended and Walder Frey (controlled by 3rd player) comes in on the side of defenders

Does this result in the attacker controlled 2 deadly and the defender only one (or does the defender control 2 deadlies)

From what I have read I assume only 1 and therefor the defender must kill someone (presumably Walder)

Yup - the attacking player controls more participating characters with deadly than any other player with participating characters, so the defending player must choose and kill a defending character (Walder is a safe choice) to satisfy deadly.