I played a 2 x 2 a list quite a bit and you would think that the combination would be good. It is to a certain extent, but the 2 B 2 A list is so similar that I would probably go with the 2 X 2 A list instead. Luke is just awesome.

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list.

That's why I think the key to the Falcon will be extra mobility. Those torps aren't useful if the Falcon isn't inside their firing arc. Or use Expert Handling to Barrel Roll out of the arc of a few ships and then break the TL of one ship that can still shoot at you.

PS - The Falcon should have Barrel Roll as a built-in ability. Just sayin'.

You don't understand. Nimdabew is talking about B-wings with heavy laser cannon and Fire control system. No Torps.

That's -1 for reading comprehension ForceM. He also mentions bombers, torps, and shuttles.

But everything I said is just as valid against B-Wings w/HLC. You'd have to be a dummy to just fly straight into them. They can move 1 straight and barrel roll all day long, while an upgraded Han uses Boost to flank them and then Barrel Roll when he needs to. Since Han is moving last, he can always pick the best way to use that extra movement.

Yes, but when it gets to B -Wings he talks about HLC and FCS.

About the avoiding HLC shots issue: Well the best way to avoid shots is probably to dash at them (straight as it is the closest way as we all know), take one turn of fire and then fly past their line if they have formed one. That way you will not have to deal with the massed fire of the 3 of them at least for more than a turn. Either way boosting is useful just like you say, but if you flank, the navigator will not be that useful since he will know which side you will probably go and adjust easier. If you go straight at him, things are different. he won't know which side you will go and if he guesses right, you still have the possibility to pick a different manoeuver of the same bearing to minimize his chances to inflict damage. You need to get past the B-Wings at all cost or at least get into close combat where you can keep them guessing where you go next to even the odds while your X-Wings chip away at them. If they need to K-Turn or even barrel roll they will not get focus at least on top of their target lock. And if they can't shoot (due to lack of targets) they don't get the free lock either.

I think one way to beat the list is having multiple high-attack value attacks happening on the same turn against something like Han. TIE Bombers would make this possible for the Empire at last, especially since the TIE/sa can carry more warheads total than Y-Wings can (and perhaps with superior manuverability?). Three bombers shooting Protons over two consecutive turns SHOULD destroy the falcon, if not leave him down to minimal HP, unless the dice hate you...

I haven't checked to see how expensive TIE Bombers will be, but if you have three each doubled loaded with torps you are spending 6x4 = 24 points on torpedoes!

That is a ship, 2 if we are talking Academy TIE's.

I am worried about the TIE Bomber and (less so) B-wing, since ordinance in this game seems so over priced. The new Advanced Torpedo looks promising, but I am very very wary of spending any points on anything that can only be used once.

The B-wing can at least have the Heavy Laser Cannon. I am a little excited for that.

And not to forget, the B-Wing has decent firepower for himself without any upgrade.

Cheap Tie Bombers with Ordnance will have the same problem that Cheap A-Wings with ordnance have. The chances to get a shot off with a low initiative ship against a higher initiative ship is very slim. It is nigh impossible to accomplish in one turn without Deadeye.

Here's why: You move, and either have no target to lock on, or if you have one and he moves after you, chances are he will be gone out of your arc or too close/far after his move so you can't fire. Or you just have no targets to lock on after moving and when they get into range you just have your Primary weapon to shoot them. Next turn you won't get another chance since your enemy moved past you or you lose your action for some reason. Or your juicy ship with 2 ordnance just gets downed. 6 HP with no shields is not nearly as tough as you want a kitted out ship to be and such a Bomber would make a quarter of your force. Even if you take 3, still it is not easy to accomplish anything with them.

If I play ordnance it is therefore always on higher skill pilots, ideally ones that boost the shots like Salm or Wedge, or on Green Squadron A-Wings with Deadeye, as they will at least not die before getting off their shot!

Well it also depends on the skill of your enemy if he can avoid these things and on the list he plays of course.

I can see swarm tactics and squad leader being used a lot more now. being able to fire off a missile at PS8+ with a PS2 bomber is going to be very powerful.

I can see swarm tactics and squad leader being used a lot more now. being able to fire off a missile at PS8+ with a PS2 bomber is going to be very powerful.

yes, i think swarm is the way to go. Hothie used Squad Leader in a similar way to swarm, to give a missile carrier ship a free target lock or focus action... difference was his missile carriers were Firesprays but yes the tricky part will be getting off missiles in a timely manner, then again tie bombers could be used to bait enemy ships too

Wave 3 is full of HSF counters.

What makes HSF so good?

360 degree range 3 no fly zone because of the likelihood of Han one shorting one 3 hull ship per turn

The amount of hits required to kill/crit the Falcon (particularly with Chewie crewing)

The problem of having to pick which target to alpha when facing an HSF list (ideally Han, but the rookies or wedge are tempting to go for too)

Wave three tools vs HSF

Tie Bomber (not 3 you knuckle heads. 1 is all you need - kinda like push-ups amirite?!).

Vader gunner + bounty hunter or shuttle = here's a crit every turn. One of them is bound to help stop the Falcon's killing spree

Anti pursuit lasers + jamfest2000 with a shuttle or bounty hunter

Hit points - shuttles, bombers, bounty hunters, dark curse, tie adv. - You can make lists that aren't full of soft, shieldless, 3 hull ships to prevent those early losses that you can't afford.

HSF will continue to be a strong list, but now the empire will have tools to counter it more reliably.

The three B-Wing list sounds horrible. I predict combined arms will reign supreme. 1 B-Wing is probably the strongest quantity.

Shuttle + bomber combos are going to be able to get locks out and ordinance on target more rapidly and reliably than ever before, making large targets easier to kill in less turns. Imagine how being able to reliably remove an an X-Wing with R2D2 or a Y-Wing in one turn, or a YT in 2-3 turns will change the game.

Bomber + shuttle + academy pilots + howlrunner could easily be the new hotness. Or some variation with 2 bombers, or a swap of the shuttle for a bounty hunter. You get the idea.

Shuttle + bomber combos are going to be able to get locks out and ordinance on target more rapidly and reliably than ever before, making large targets easier to kill in less turns. Imagine how being able to reliably remove an an X-Wing with R2D2 or a Y-Wing in one turn, or a YT in 2-3 turns will change the game.

If it's a problem, Han lists will just start carrying Expert Handling to shake off target locks.

If it's a problem, Han lists will just start carrying Expert Handling to shake off target locks.

That means however giving up marksmanship, and getting 1 stress to remove 1 TL.

Okay, so you'd have:

Lambda - Jendon w/ STS-321; ???

Tie Bomber - Rhymer w/Homing Missile; APT;???

Howlrunn - w/???

Fill in the ???s

Would you still take an academy?

Rhymer would then be the one to kill (big target).

Would you have any staying power?

The three B-Wing list sounds horrible. I predict combined arms will reign supreme. 1 B-Wing is probably the strongest quantity.

It has more firepower than 3 x-wings, it has more hit points than 3 x-wings, it has more maneuverability than 3 x-wings, and it is ALWAYS throwing 12 attack dice. No range 3 modifiers. Free target locks. I don't see how it is particularly bad.

It has more firepower than 3 x-wings, it has more hit points than 3 x-wings, it has more maneuverability than 3 x-wings, and it is ALWAYS throwing 12 attack dice. No range 3 modifiers. Free target locks. I don't see how it is particularly bad.

I don't think it's a bad list, in fact I plan on flying that list myself once I get my B's.

But you can't really compare that to 3 X-Wings, considering the point value of those B's with those upgrades.

It has more firepower than 3 x-wings, it has more hit points than 3 x-wings, it has more maneuverability than 3 x-wings, and it is ALWAYS throwing 12 attack dice. No range 3 modifiers. Free target locks. I don't see how it is particularly bad.

I don't think it's a bad list, in fact I plan on flying that list myself once I get my B's.

But you can't really compare that to 3 X-Wings, considering the point value of those B's with those upgrades.

Three named pilots? Even comparing to 4 x-wing lists though, it is a strong list. Equal firepower output at range 3, equal evade dice against 4 x-wings, more hit points, and better actions. It just keeps getting better as they close in too since the second round, when they are at range 1-2, the B-Wings now have free target locks for a TL+Focus attack. I say again: it will be THE list in wave 3 for tournaments. Also, you must destroy at least 2 B-Wings to get a match win since concentrated HLC fire will take out one of something in one turn, which means you must kill two B-Wings to get more than 33 points above the opponent. If the B-Wings kill 66 points worth of stuff, they must wipe you out to get the full match win. It is a scary list on many different levels which will be why it is going to replace my 4 x-wing list most likely.

The three B-Wing list sounds horrible. I predict combined arms will reign supreme. 1 B-Wing is probably the strongest quantity.

It has more firepower than 3 x-wings, it has more hit points than 3 x-wings, it has more maneuverability than 3 x-wings, and it is ALWAYS throwing 12 attack dice. No range 3 modifiers. Free target locks. I don't see how it is particularly bad.

I think I missed a post???

How is 3 (three) B-Wings getting free Target Locks and no range modifiers?

Are we talking three Dagger Squadron with Autoblaster and Fire Control one of which is Ten?

If it's a problem, Han lists will just start carrying Expert Handling to shake off target locks.

That means however giving up marksmanship, and getting 1 stress to remove 1 TL.

It also means finding room to barrel roll in a Falcon; not often easy. And that just gets rid of one target lock.

No. 3 dagger B-Wings all with HLC and FCS. 33 points a piece, 99 points total. 4 dice at range 1/2/3, 2 defense dice at R3 (equal to an X-Wing at R2 and vs a HLC), and 24 hit points.

No. 3 dagger B-Wings all with HLC and FCS. 33 points a piece, 99 points total. 4 dice at range 1/2/3, 2 defense dice at R3 (equal to an X-Wing at R2 and vs a HLC), and 24 hit points.

That seems killer... What could you field against that?

Or am I missing something?

2 defense dice at R3 (equal to an X-Wing at R2 and vs a HLC)

It's not exactly accurate to compare the defense dice of B's at R3 vs X's at R2. In every case they have 1 fewer die then X's do.

No question the 3 B list you mention, which is the same one that I put together myself is killer. Would make a great all commers list.

But you are stacking the deck a bit in your comparisons here.

I can't think of much unless you have loaded dice. A tie swarm maybe? Maybe a W/L/B decked out force trying to get the drop on one of the B-Wings before they can fire?

4 shuttles will give the B-Wing list trouble, but they *need* to kill one of the B-Wings in one or two turns. Maybe 4 A-Wings with PtL and missiles... The counters are out there, we just haven't found them yet.

2 defense dice at R3 (equal to an X-Wing at R2 and vs a HLC)

It's not exactly accurate to compare the defense dice of B's at R3 vs X's at R2. In every case they have 1 fewer die then X's do.

No question the 3 B list you mention, which is the same one that I put together myself is killer. Would make a great all commers list.

But you are stacking the deck a bit in your comparisons here.

An X-Wing going against a B-Wing at range 3 with a HLC on the B-Wing will give the X-Wing 2 evade dice since they are attacking with a secondary weapon. The B-Wing, being attacked by a primary weapon, can get 2 evade dice at Range 3. The X-Wings need to close, and they need to close at full throttle.

Luke: Biggs, Wedge, let's close it up. We're going in. We're going in... full throttle.

Wedge: Right with you, boss.

He is comparing B-Wings at Range 3 to X-Wings at Range 3, actually. He is pointing out that the X-Wings would not gain the extra defense die vs. the B-Wing's HLCs, so both sets of ships would be rolling 2 dice for defense. He then points out that as the ships close on one another the B-Wings would have the accuracy advantage because they could use both TL and Focus for follow up shots at range 1 or 2.

This is a logical fallacy, however, when it comes to comparing the utility of the two lists. The only time it holds true is if the X-Wings and B-Wings are shooting at each other. If you took both lists up against a third alternative, for example HSF since that is the OP for this thread, the X-Wings would be rolling 3 defense dice at range 3 but the B-Wings would only be rolling two. The comparison breaks down on offense as well. For example, if both lists were fighting a TIE swarm the B-Wings would not likely get to use a "free" TL as ranges decrease because there is a good chance that the TIE they shot at would have died taking the TL with it.

I do believe the Death Bubble will be a good counter for HSF, those B-Wings will only lose that extra defense die once per shot, and HSF does not shoot many times (just one or two high accuracy shots). The list will also lay an enormous hurt on a single target with HLCs and recurring "free" TLs on that target until it dies. The Death Bubble will not fare as well as the Triple X against higher ship counts, however, because its low number of shots will create a lot of "waste" where extra damage to a destroyed ship is lost (reducing damage output over time) and the loss of one agility against a large number of smaller attacks will begin to tell rapidly.

He is comparing B-Wings at Range 3 to X-Wings at Range 3, actually.

This is a logical fallacy, however, when it comes to comparing the utility of the two lists

I get the idea, but as you said it's not exactly the correct way to compare two lists. Because it's assuming the ideal situation for one, without taking in to account what the X's might be doing, what upgrades they might have, ect...

Again the 3 B list above is a great list. But you can't look only at ideal situations when comparing lists.

@nimdabew.

I agree with firepower and I think maneuver wise, barrel roll makes up for the dial somewhat, but costs that all important action.

The biggy will be that 1 agility is going to mean that even ties are going to land a lot of damage and I think they will go down in the same time as an x-wing, maybe faster.

Have you guys seen the B-Wing maneuver dial? Everyone wants to focus on dice. Almost every ship in the game will want to get close and stay behind a B-Wing. Doing so will negate a ton of attacks by being out of arc. Or at the very least it will prevent focus firing. 3 B-Wings doesn't sound all that intimidating to face. Intelligent maneuvering will make it impossible for the B-Wings to put out the firepower you are predicting. Granted, play testing will be required to prove either theory.