imo Han Shoots First squads were arguably the easiest to play and one of the best all-round squads pre-wave3.

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/06/han-shoots-first-why-is-it-so-good.html

The above article outlines why HSF is such a good squad - to summarise - its easy to play, forgiving on mistakes and has huge firepower. Sure its not unbeatable but it is consistent against everything, even lists designed to beat it. Sure a tie swarm piloted by a skilled player would be more than a worthy counter-squad but that would require skill by the imperial player (there is no such things a a squad that beats all other squads).

Will HSF lists continue to have as much success with wave3 ships in the mix?

What do imperial players get in wave3 that will be good against the Falcon?

I think one way to beat the list is having multiple high-attack value attacks happening on the same turn against something like Han. TIE Bombers would make this possible for the Empire at last, especially since the TIE/sa can carry more warheads total than Y-Wings can (and perhaps with superior manuverability?). Three bombers shooting Protons over two consecutive turns SHOULD destroy the falcon, if not leave him down to minimal HP, unless the dice hate you...

For the rebels, B-Wings can put out a tremendous amount of firepower as well. Cheap B-Wings can carry twin torps, a normal attack of 3, and with possible upgrades to increase their attack power (Autoblaster/HLC), or defensive power (Sensor Jammer).

In light of that article I wonder if anyone's tried flying a double-torp Y-Wing list against that list to splash the falcon and then focus on the smaller ships.

First just adding to the conversation.

http://swcommonground.com/2013/04/04/han-shoots-first-a-squad-by-ryan-picasso-krippendorf/

Next I've taken the missile and torp bombardment lists against it. The trick to the torps is that you need to eat the shields before you shoot them. Those second weapon ships draw lots of fire from the X-wings and are holding a lot of points. They have to shoot them quickly or not shoot them at all. Also the missiles IMO are better spent on the X-wings.

I think the B-wings will fair better against the HSF list. Getting crits is always key to taking out a big ship.

I do think HSF will be even better with wave three because of new upgrades and better support ships.

chewie as crewman on Han makes him so much harder to disable. getn thru the falcons shields quickly leaves han vulnerable to a disabling crit. hard to see how this list can be made even better with wave3, but the cheaper support ships will def get a chance to replace one or both of the x-wings.

I think getting the extra red dice will speed things up a ton.

Personally I can't wait to give Han a Navigator. I think the ability to adjust his speed will give you quite a few chances to move him out of hairy situations and avoid traffic jams. Its even more effective if tied w/an Engine Upgrade.

It should come in handy for keeping you out of range of missiles and Saboteurs too.

I've been thinking about adding the anti pursuit lasers to that mix as well. Think about that setup on an outer rim smuggler.

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list. I am personally VERY excited about the death bubble list. It will be extremly boring to play and not very inventive, but it is a strategy of

1. Point at target

2. Shoot

3. Sip Mai-Tai's on the beach turn four

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list.

That's why I think the key to the Falcon will be extra mobility. Those torps aren't useful if the Falcon isn't inside their firing arc. Or use Expert Handling to Barrel Roll out of the arc of a few ships and then break the TL of one ship that can still shoot at you.

PS - The Falcon should have Barrel Roll as a built-in ability. Just sayin'.

The thing about the B-wing is the low agility. I'd be worried about the X-wings putting six hits down on one in one round of shooting. It is also only three attacks, three regular firing arcs. Is it dangerous? Yes, does it stand up to other lists? I think a Seven TIE Swarm would crush those B-wings. Two A-wings and Two X-wings would crush it. They need some kind of fighter defense or an amazing maneuver dial. If the B-wing has too many red moves or not the right hard turns having three of them regardless of fire power and shields could leave you open to being out maneuvered. A squint would be DEADLY to the B-wing. An A-wing will be effective. In theory a YT-100 could hard one or hard two its way out of your ship's firing arc and still shoot at you. What if you supported the B-wings with prototype A-wings? The A-wings could work as speed bumps and keep the YT-100 in your arc. The second thing is the low PS. I'd try and sneak a named pilot in there with some kind of an ability.

My two cents.

~Picasso

I will have to play around with it, but I think the death bubble is going to be THE rebel list along with 4 X-Wings, HSF, and Wedge/Biggs/Dutch.

The Swarm/High maneuverability lists will give the death bubble a hard time, but 12 attack dice with free target locks, barrel roll, and (hopefully) a full spectrum 1 speed maneuver dial will help a lot with that.

i personally hope the dominance of the HSF list is over. Time for a new squad to have its time to shine.

1) Is the HSF list going to replaced by another rebel list just as dominant?

2) Do the imperials get anything new that will dominate?

3) Will the tie-swarm re-emerge as the best counter to rebels? no love for tie-bombers?

4) Could there be a bomber-swarm that will see play and do well?

5) Anyone got a list that uses Capt. Jonus? He looks custom made to support other tie-bombers and Fire-Sprays (esp Bounty Hunters imo).

HSF is powerful because Han is powerful. Anything that will cause Han grief (or the YT-1300 in general) will help to reduce the dominance of the HSF list. I doubt there will be a "silver bullet" that causes this list to go away, because Han with Marksmanship, Gunner, and Chewbacca is so powerful. We will see what happens.

I think the one upgrade that may put HSF out of business (or at least tone it way down) is the Auto-Blaster, depending on what it winds up being. If, as it appears, it allows an additional attack it would be very effective vs. low agility ships like the YT-1300 but much less so vs. high agility ships who can evade vs. each shot.

We will see.

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list.

That's why I think the key to the Falcon will be extra mobility. Those torps aren't useful if the Falcon isn't inside their firing arc. Or use Expert Handling to Barrel Roll out of the arc of a few ships and then break the TL of one ship that can still shoot at you.

PS - The Falcon should have Barrel Roll as a built-in ability. Just sayin'.

You don't understand. Nimdabew is talking about B-wings with heavy laser cannon and Fire control system. No Torps. They will just "float" since they will shoot the sh** out of you and maybe barrel roll (backwards) to move as little as possible. you need to fly towards them very very fast and try to get behind them or you will never outmaneuver them or get outside their firing arcs.

You are right about the navigator and the expert handling though because that might help you. Might as well take Uglyface for one point making all straights green is valuable while you just charge at the b-wings.

But again 3 B-wings that just have 4 attack dice at any range is nothing to laugh at, especially since they get free locks too...

HSF is powerful because Han is powerful. Anything that will cause Han grief (or the YT-1300 in general) will help to reduce the dominance of the HSF list. I doubt there will be a "silver bullet" that causes this list to go away, because Han with Marksmanship, Gunner, and Chewbacca is so powerful. We will see what happens.

I think the one upgrade that may put HSF out of business (or at least tone it way down) is the Auto-Blaster, depending on what it winds up being. If, as it appears, it allows an additional attack it would be very effective vs. low agility ships like the YT-1300 but much less so vs. high agility ships who can evade vs. each shot.

We will see.

yeah thats what im afraid of, more of the same. worse than more of the same is upgrades that make HSF even better

Hans ability to reroll attacks combined with Gunner is what makes this list broken (too good imo) Marksmanship isnt really needed but just adds to the hurt throughout the course of the battle. imo the title card is equally/more useful option, especially if the game is close as u get to shrug off late game damage once his shields r down.

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list. I am personally VERY excited about the death bubble list. It will be extremly boring to play and not very inventive, but it is a strategy of

1. Point at target

2. Shoot

3. Sip Mai-Tai's on the beach turn four

Actually you are pretty **** right. Especially the 3 or 4 shuttle list seems absolutely like the new meta. If those shuttles have anything near a normal movement dial, this is not gonna be a funny matchup with X-Wing firepower and 10 hitpoints per piece.

Against HSF they will just plain outlast it. HSF has decent firepower, but 40 hitpoints, or 30 pimped up hitpoints?? are you kidding me?

And just to be clear, 24 point shuttle is the lowest NAMED Pilot, so there is a strong chance (like...100%) the non-mamed ones will be even cheaper, letting you add insult to injury (a.k.a. you can also equip them with some goodies, having 4 of them). This is just ridiculous...

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list. I am personally VERY excited about the death bubble list. It will be extremly boring to play and not very inventive, but it is a strategy of

1. Point at target

2. Shoot

3. Sip Mai-Tai's on the beach turn four

Actually you are pretty **** right. Especially the 3 or 4 shuttle list seems absolutely like the new meta. If those shuttles have anything near a normal movement dial, this is not gonna be a funny matchup with X-Wing firepower and 10 hitpoints per piece.

Against HSF they will just plain outlast it. HSF has decent firepower, but 40 hitpoints, or 30 pimped up hitpoints?? are you kidding me?

And just to be clear, 24 point shuttle is the lowest NAMED Pilot, so there is a strong chance (like...100%) the non-mamed ones will be even cheaper, letting you add insult to injury (a.k.a. you can also equip them with some goodies, having 4 of them). This is just ridiculous...

what if there are only named shuttle pilots? i can see this being the case. the shuttle is like a elite ship, not one that non-named pilots would get to fly imo.

They did say at Star Wars weekend that the shuttle's movement dial will be the worst in the game. I think you can easily out maneuver the shuttles. Also the one evade leaves them open for destruction. We will see what happens when the ships release but I can't see flying four of them and not getting out maneuvered. Turret weapons should be able to ground these ships fairly easily. IMO

Actually you are pretty **** right. Especially the 3 or 4 shuttle list seems absolutely like the new meta. If those shuttles have anything near a normal movement dial, this is not gonna be a funny matchup with X-Wing firepower and 10 hitpoints per piece.

Don't panic. (Sorry for mixing the Sci-fi references there.)

Be assured that the Shuttle will have the worst movement dial in the game. It will be easy to get behind it and stay behind it.

With HLC B-Wings floating around like death bubbles (I would like to coin that term for the 3 B-Wing, HLC, FCS list), Bombers with twin torps for 24 points, and 24 point shuttles, I think we have seen the end of the domination of the HSF list.

That's why I think the key to the Falcon will be extra mobility. Those torps aren't useful if the Falcon isn't inside their firing arc. Or use Expert Handling to Barrel Roll out of the arc of a few ships and then break the TL of one ship that can still shoot at you.

PS - The Falcon should have Barrel Roll as a built-in ability. Just sayin'.

You don't understand. Nimdabew is talking about B-wings with heavy laser cannon and Fire control system. No Torps.

That's -1 for reading comprehension ForceM. He also mentions bombers, torps, and shuttles.

But everything I said is just as valid against B-Wings w/HLC. You'd have to be a dummy to just fly straight into them. They can move 1 straight and barrel roll all day long, while an upgraded Han uses Boost to flank them and then Barrel Roll when he needs to. Since Han is moving last, he can always pick the best way to use that extra movement.

Will advanced proton torps be ne good versus the bigger ships? getting in at range1 to get them off is easy enough but getting away again is a different story.

I think one way to beat the list is having multiple high-attack value attacks happening on the same turn against something like Han. TIE Bombers would make this possible for the Empire at last, especially since the TIE/sa can carry more warheads total than Y-Wings can (and perhaps with superior manuverability?). Three bombers shooting Protons over two consecutive turns SHOULD destroy the falcon, if not leave him down to minimal HP, unless the dice hate you...

I haven't checked to see how expensive TIE Bombers will be, but if you have three each doubled loaded with torps you are spending 6x4 = 24 points on torpedoes!

That is a ship, 2 if we are talking Academy TIE's.

I am worried about the TIE Bomber and (less so) B-wing, since ordinance in this game seems so over priced. The new Advanced Torpedo looks promising, but I am very very wary of spending any points on anything that can only be used once.

The B-wing can at least have the Heavy Laser Cannon. I am a little excited for that.

I haven't checked to see how expensive TIE Bombers will be, but if you have three each doubled loaded with torps you are spending 6x4 = 24 points on torpedoes!

The PS 4 pilot is 18 points, so the 2 pilot should be 16 points. That's pretty cheap...

I kinda expect the 6 hull/2 agility to be equally as effective to the 3 hull/5 shield/1 agility as the B-wing...still, the Bomber is only an ordinance machine. But hey, imo you could put 4 out, each with a missile/missile or bomb/missile and i could see them doing pretty well. Decent survivability, and a lot of damage potential. I don't think we'll really know until we can play with them for a few weeks.

But frankly, i'm a fan of ordinance (casual player) and it generally performs well for me so i'm a little biased

Having played almost exclusively vs HSF for the last 20 or so games, the list just isn't that scary anymore. The issue I have seen with HSF is that the escort ships tend to be very cheap. And it's easier to kill off a pair of X-wings/Y-wings quickly and then go for Han than vice-versa. Han takes 2-3 turns to kill, an X-wing can be downed in a single turn, and is an equal percentage reduction in firepower. A good all round list with no easy target priority basically lets you out play HSF in all kinds of ways. At least, from back in my old 40k tournament days, I found the best lists were those that had no obvious targets and permitted you to deal damage in several different ways. The problem with Han over say, a 4 x-wing build or tie horde is that he makes target priority rather simple.

Come wave 3, I'm eyeballing a 2 B-wing 2 A-wing list. Upgrades would be PTL on green squadron and Ion Cannon on B-wings, with either stealth on As or FCS on Bs. I haven't ran A-wings yet, but I think this brings a solid enough combination of maneuverability, speed, firepower, and ion tokens to handle HSF while being good against anything else, at least hypothetically.