So they both appear to do the same thing: keep a character from getting flustered while stressed, only that they come at it from two different angles (well, attributes). Is the only difference between the two is that one is Presence and that one is Willpower?

***EDIT***

Egads, how stupid was I back four years ago. Well, I guess we all have to start learning the system somewhere!

Well, socially speaking, for opposed checks, the difference is outlined on page 113. Otherwise, I tend to look at it as Cool is used against more environmental hazards, while discipline is used against more combat related fear effects. I've also said that Cool is for the things that scare you that you can't see, while Discipline is for the things that scare you that you CAN see.

If I understand this correctly, Cool is more to stay focused in a surrounding chaos, while Discipline is used to resist instincts and fear.

Exactly. Cool is what you use to keep your head straight, and to not get distracted, and to not get angry when people are trying to irritate you. If someone is trying to flatter you or distract you as their bud steals your credit chit, seeing past their ruse is based off of cool. It is also what you use, obviously, for initiative when you're going into a fight you know about. Arena fights, duels, ambushing other people, sniping, etc.

Discipline is what you roll when you are faced by scary things. Explosions, suppressing fire, rancors, etc. When things go wrong, you roll discipline to act with courage in the face of terror. You also use discipline to see through people lying to your face, or if they are trying to intimidate you or dominate you, either through words or through the Force, in many cases.

How do you handle Cool and Discipline when it comes to the lies?

In the description of the skills I can find:

Cool: A character’s Cool is used to resist Charm and Negotiation, and it may permit him to ignore many of the lies that come as part of a discussion.

Discipline: Mentally sorting truth from fiction and determining when someone is lying (and not letting oneself be swayed by those lies) are often a function of Discipline.

Normally Deception is used for lying, but Cool description suggests that Charm can be used for lying too in some situation. When do you permit (if you permit at all) to use Charm when a PC is lying?

I cant decide wheather Luke was charming or deceiving Han Solo when asking to help the princess on the DS.

Very clearly deceiving. Charm is more like "Look at me, i am so handsome, help me", but he said "She is super rich and your reward will be more than you can ever imagine", he didn't even know there would be a great reward

For me the part about reward is Charm, the reward is speculative but a probable thing given the fact she is a princess. Of course, I can clearly see why it can be treated as a Deception at the same time.

Does Obi-Wan deceives Han Solo in the cantina when saying that he can pay 15k when they reach Alderaan? I think he is negotiation/charming him, as he assumes that he will very probable secure the money from his senator friend.

I would clearly differentiate here, Obi Wan offers him money. His money (or the "group's" money). I assume he planned on getting the 15,000 credits from Senator Organa on arriving Alderaan. I would still count that as charm, because Organa is an old friend, and Kenobi knows, that he can get the 15,000.

But Luke really pulled off a bluff. I would assume he does not know, that Leia is that rich, nor is he in the position to promise Han a reward, that exceeds all he could imagine. Clearly Deception.

But it's hard to judge that movie scenes. Luke could have had an off screen talk to Kenobi, where Kenobi told him, that Organa is very rich. Had that been an ingame decision, I would have asked the player whether he knows, that there is such a great reward (and how he could know that), and then decide whether Charm or Deception is used

8 minutes ago, MasterZelgadis said:

I would clearly differentiate here, Obi Wan offers him money. His money (or the "group's" money). I assume he planned on getting the 15,000 credits from Senator Organa on arriving Alderaan. I would still count that as charm, because Organa is an old friend, and Kenobi knows, that he can get the 15,000.

But Luke really pulled off a bluff. I would assume he does not know, that Leia is that rich, nor is he in the position to promise Han a reward, that exceeds all he could imagine. Clearly Deception.

But it's hard to judge that movie scenes. Luke could have had an off screen talk to Kenobi, where Kenobi told him, that Organa is very rich. Had that been an ingame decision, I would have asked the player whether he knows, that there is such a great reward (and how he could know that), and then decide whether Charm or Deception is used

Charm is temptation, seduction and all that goes along with it.

Deception is fooling someone, scamming and tricking someone and all that goes along with that.

That really is the simplest distinction. Luke makes no statement which suggest that he knows anything for sure, he is not trying to fool Han, he is trying tempt him with all those riches which a princess must have, because she is a princess. There are no absolutes in charm and there is a honesty within it.

Now if Luke would know that this specific Princess is dirt poor, lacks any influence and actually is not a real princess, sure that would have been a deception check.

If Obi-Wan rolled charm or deception depends if Obi-Wan could reasonable assume that those credits would be paid out to Han or not. Which is actually hard to say from an audience point of view. Obi-Wan is the king of deception, it would not been beyond him to fool Han and it would certainly be the easier roll for him, but it would be as well creating useless conflict and I don't think that the Rebels would not pay out Han after he delivered unknowingly the Death Star plans and the Jedi Knight to Alderaan. So it really depends what the player and GM decide about Obi-Wan's background and knowledge of the situation.

Either way, for a GM and his group its simple, if the offer is honest and just the charm and temptation of the offer and the character are doing the convincing it is charm, if it is all a ruse it is deception. Another easy way to separate the too is the following: Charm is creating a desire to do something, while deception is creating a fake opportunity to fulfill that desire. Lastly negotiation takes about what you have to do to fulfill that desire. This chain can create a whole chain of checks within a social encounter.

"Create a wish" - Charm

"Make them believe you will grant their wish, but actually you won't" - Deception

"Take about your price to grant their wish" - Negotiation

While not RAW, I've been using Vigilance to oppose deception for several months now. That's a skill that could use more weight.

9 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

While not RAW, I've been using Vigilance to oppose deception for several months now. That's a skill that could use more weight.

It's the skill which is used as standard for initiative and for being prepared and can be used as a mini-utility belt talent as well, the skill is has already a lot of weight.

Perhaps. But if you were to remove Initiative from its use (which does give it plenty of use), there's not much left where it gets used.

The second example is good, but my players are more than happy to use a DP rather than risk a chance for failure for the same example, and I'm not interested in changing that up.

I see it as stuff like, you arrive somewhere, do you notice X is a perception test. You watch a scene for 30 minutes, do you notice X is a vigilance test.

On 10/3/2017 at 4:24 PM, kaosoe said:

Perhaps. But if you were to remove Initiative from its use (which does give it plenty of use), there's not much left where it gets used.

The second example is good, but my players are more than happy to use a DP rather than risk a chance for failure for the same example, and I'm not interested in changing that up.

For me Vigilance is like passive Perception. Noticing traps that you were not looking for, a sniper aligning to kill you, something that you are not actively looking for or when PCs did not declare that they care about their einvornment.

"Perception = being able to tell or spot something that is there; Vigilance = being able to anticipate and react to something that is about to happen"

Discipline is keeping your concentration, Cool is keeping your composure.

You can pass a discipline check while sweating bullets and twitching nervously.

You can pass a cool check while your mind is on vacation in your happy place.

On 3/10/2017 at 3:09 AM, SEApocalypse said:

Charm is temptation, seduction and all that goes along with it.

Deception is fooling someone, scamming and tricking someone and all that goes along with that.

That really is the simplest distinction. Luke makes no statement which suggest that he knows anything for sure, he is not trying to fool Han, he is trying tempt him with all those riches which a princess must have, because she is a princess. There are no absolutes in charm and there is a honesty within it.

Now if Luke would know that this specific Princess is dirt poor, lacks any influence and actually is not a real princess, sure that would have been a deception check.

If Obi-Wan rolled charm or deception depends if Obi-Wan could reasonable assume that those credits would be paid out to Han or not. Which is actually hard to say from an audience point of view. Obi-Wan is the king of deception, it would not been beyond him to fool Han and it would certainly be the easier roll for him, but it would be as well creating useless conflict and I don't think that the Rebels would not pay out Han after he delivered unknowingly the Death Star plans and the Jedi Knight to Alderaan. So it really depends what the player and GM decide about Obi-Wan's background and knowledge of the situation.

Either way, for a GM and his group its simple, if the offer is honest and just the charm and temptation of the offer and the character are doing the convincing it is charm, if it is all a ruse it is deception. Another easy way to separate the too is the following: Charm is creating a desire to do something, while deception is creating a fake opportunity to fulfill that desire. Lastly negotiation takes about what you have to do to fulfill that desire. This chain can create a whole chain of checks within a social encounter.

"Create a wish" - Charm

"Make them believe you will grant their wish, but actually you won't" - Deception

"Take about your price to grant their wish" - Negotiation

Also there is the fact they did pay him. Remember he got his reward and pay before he left before the attack. That is what he is loading when luke talks to him

One easy test, generally applicable to Coercion/Deception/Leadership vs. Charm/Negotiation.

Are you trying to resist doing something you really don't want to do? That's Discipline.

Are you trying to resist doing something that you might actually want to do even when you know you might regret it? That's Cool.