Hey everyone!

I'm just looking to start EotE with my group in the next few months - and while not straight away I know eventually a few of the players want to pick up Starfighters, the only real disappointment i've had with the book is I cannot find how much Encumbrance fighters take up inside of a ship. Specifically looking at the Wayfarer it should be able to hold one or two fighters in its pod. I was wondering if A) I've missed something in the books, or B) if anyone has some suggestions or how they are dealing with it.

I was thinking about maybe using Silhouette x 100? But anything larger then a starfighter cannot be stored?

Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks =)

Well, if you think they are going to want snubfighters, suggest they pick a vehicle of silhouette 5 or greater. Freighters can't typically hold fighters, but transports (which are usually the sillhouette 5 vehicles) do. Keep in mind that their ship is not going to be very strong against other snubfighters if this is the case, though, since they will be able to dance all around your larger ship. But that's the easiest way I can think to do it.

There's actually a starship upgrade that literally builds a Hangar Bay out of a few of the ship's hardpoints, but it can only be applied to silhouette 5 or higher ships.

If they still want a freighter-size ship, certain smaller transports and freighters come standard with starfighter clamps, or you could have they buy them later on too. This lets non-hyperspace vehicles hitch a ride on the freighters when they need to jump. That's what one of my players is planning on doing eventually.

You might eb able to fight the small fighters inside a ship in theory....but most freighters aren't going to have a hatch big enough for that. You are talking about a modification, which as is mentioned above, is really for larger ships.

That said, if your group thinks its cool and wants to do it, just say they can fit however many in your judgement could fit in there and use your judgement as GM. Fun is the most important rule in any RPG.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wayfarer-class_medium_transport

Thats the ship i'm talking about (which is one of the starting ships) just for information.

The Wayfarer doesn't have the hangar module it did in Saga/d20, for some reason unknown to us. Still, it has enough CHPs to add the retrofitted hangar bay, at that point you have silhouette capacity of 5; which means for example 1 silhouette 3 starfighter (and 1 silhouette 2 vehicle); and remember the attachments description; it should make sense that the ship can fit it aboard.

This hangar bay can be further modified to fit more ships into it, but for the time being I'm uncertain about how that works, it seems a bit unclear to me how the silhouette capacity increases; by 1, base max capacity, or something else, and how many times it can be applied.

The Wayfarer doesn't have the hangar module it did in Saga/d20, for some reason unknown to us. Still, it has enough CHPs to add the retrofitted hangar bay, at that point you have silhouette capacity of 5; which means for example 1 silhouette 3 starfighter (and 1 silhouette 2 vehicle); and remember the attachments description; it should make sense that the ship can fit it aboard.

This hangar bay can be further modified to fit more ships into it, but for the time being I'm uncertain about how that works, it seems a bit unclear to me how the silhouette capacity increases; by 1, base max capacity, or something else, and how many times it can be applied.

It can be applied up to 5 times according to RAW. As to how many additional silhouette capacity it adds...well. That's hard to say. It seems to read that you would add the base amount for the carrier silhouette as listed, but that gets silly quick.

I think the easy way they could have sorted this one out is saying the cargo module on the wayfarer is silhouette 5 with it's own HP and the transport is silhouette 4 with it's own pool of HP.

That would have made the Wayfarer by far the most interesting, and probably powerful, ship of the three starting ships, unless the transport/silhouette 4 part had 3 or 4 HPs and the silhouette5 module had 2 or 3.

It can be applied up to 5 times according to RAW. As to how many additional silhouette capacity it adds...well. That's hard to say. It seems to read that you would add the base amount for the carrier silhouette as listed, but that gets silly quick.

Yeah, I figure 5 times, but 5 times of what? +1 to max capacity? or max capacity? The latter means the silhouette 5 can get a silhouette capacity of 30... for the silhouette 6 and 7 I'm kind of ok with that increase, as they are much larger starships, and it would make more sense than adding +1 silhouette capacity, although for the silhouette 5 a +1 silhouette capacity could make more sense, to a total of 10 maximum.

I think the easy way they could have sorted this one out is saying the cargo module on the wayfarer is silhouette 5 with it's own HP and the transport is silhouette 4 with it's own pool of HP.

I agree with this idea since the cargo module were intended to be modular in the beginning. And this makes more sense. Altogether tho what wold the total silhouette of the ship be counted as?

I think the easy way they could have sorted this one out is saying the cargo module on the wayfarer is silhouette 5 with it's own HP and the transport is silhouette 4 with it's own pool of HP.

I agree with this idea since the cargo module were intended to be modular in the beginning. And this makes more sense. Altogether tho what wold the total silhouette of the ship be counted as?

I'd say it would just take the maximum silhouette (Edit e.g. 5 in this case). That's the nice thing about this style of measurement, it's very loose.

Also to maybe weaken it, say the speed is reduced by 1 when combined. For current wayfarer stats, split the available HPs between the cargo module and the wayfarer, maybe 3 / 3 as suggested by Jegergryte. I'm still waiting for my books to arrive before I can finalize my mind about it though but it seems to be a great way to get a small freighter which can carry around one or two starfighters.

Well, as far as I can tell the attachment works as follows:

the PC's get a Wayfarrer. they take it to a shpyard and get it retrofitted with a hangar bay. this could be another module slapped onto the ship, or it could be more efficient use of cargo space. they spend 5k credits. they can now carry [sil 5] worth of vehicles in their shiny new hangar. They realize this isn't enough space so the mechanic gets to work. He spends [credits/materials] makes his Hard roll and succeeds. they no have a Hangar bay attachement with 1 +max capacity mod which = 10 sil in this case. He continues working with another mod, passes his Daunting Mechanics roll (barely) and the ship can now carry a total sil of 15, which is 5 starfighters. more than enough I'd say.

the gear attachment mods only list 100 credits for the first mod and +100 there after... although i think i'd increase it for shipscale stuff...

As far as enc penalty... RAW doesn't list one, and for 5k credits, i'm inclined to agree. However if their Mod rolls generate any threat, I could see knocking (50~100) enc off per mod in wasted space...

Just my thoughts.

It'd be 25,000 for the hanger on a Wayfarer, because it's 5000 per Sil size (Wayfarer is 5, so 25k credits).

If you have the chance later in play, ditch the Wayfarer and pick up a Citadel. It can carry two starfighters in external clamps. It's made by the same people that make the Y-Wing, so parts should be somewhat interchangeable (it mounts the same forward guns and turrets) for fluff happiness.

Not to get too EU on everyone, but Mara Jade's second ship Jade Shadow was modified to carry a single X-wing starfighter. The ship was classified as a SoroSuub Horizon-class Star Yacht with a crew of 4 and room for 10 passengers. The starfighter modification was secret and expensive. The books specifically mention that there was barely room for the starfighter, and getting it out during combat was tricky.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jade_Shadow

Anything smaller wouldn't be feasible unless you wanted to really gut some major systems (like refreshers, quarters, dining areas, and maybe life support) and wear a sealed environment suit at all times.

I feel that an important part of the original question has not been addressed in this thread:

...the only real disappointment i've had with the book is I cannot find how much Encumbrance fighters take up inside of a ship...

If you add the hangar attachment to the Wayfarer, I would assume each modification upgrades the max capacity by 1, meaning it would increase the amount of total silhouette the hangar could hold by 1. In the case of the Wayfarer, adding a hangar with 1 modification would allow it to hold 6 silhouette worth of vehicles. Let's say that the players decide to dock 2 Z-95s inside of this hangar (3 + 3 = 6 total silhouette). When considering how much additional cargo you could hold, how much encumbrance do the fighters take up?

I know that for characters, their weight is considered to be the same as their encumbrance threshold. If this is the same for ships, the Z-95 would only take up 8 encumbrance (Many PCs could actually carry this, so that can't be right). Plus, the 2 Z-95s mentioned above would only take up 16 encumbrance of the Wayfarer's 800+. That seems a bit silly. Our group decided that a ship's encumbrance value (how much it weighs) would be equal to it's encumbrance threshold (how much it can hold) times 10. This would make the Z-95's encumbrance 80, which makes a bit more sense. Still, I haven't found solid text in the book to support this. Any thoughts?

If you add the hangar attachment to the Wayfarer, I would assume each modification upgrades the max capacity by 1, meaning it would increase the amount of total silhouette the hangar could hold by 1.

The mod reads "5 additional maximum silhouette mods" which I believe would add 5 sil per mod to the freighter.

And

It'd be 25,000 for the hanger on a Wayfarer, because it's 5000 per Sil size (Wayfarer is 5, so 25k credits).

You are completely correct. which means i'll likely not charge the PC's any more money.

As far as the OP goes... I would prolly go closer to Sil x 20~50? But these would not be deployable, lacking the launch facilities that the hangar would bring.

Moving vehicles as freight could significantly alter how they are stored/secured, so it's really up to you.

If you add the hangar attachment to the Wayfarer, I would assume each modification upgrades the max capacity by 1, meaning it would increase the amount of total silhouette the hangar could hold by 1.

The mod reads "5 additional maximum silhouette mods" which I believe would add 5 sil per mod to the freighter.

The way I understand the book, the number 5 represents the number of times that the mod can be applied. I would assume that it adds one silhouette each time that it is applied.

Still, that part of my post is completely irrelevant... the question remains: What is the encumbrance value of a starship (not the encumbrance threshold (cargo capacity) but encumbrance value (weight))?

Ok so we have gotten off topic. . .

what the original question was is how to figure out how much encumbrance a star fighter takes up.

say you have the wayfarer and you have altered it to have the hanger bay. The wayfarer has an encumbrance capacity of 850. So how much of that is going to be taken up by the star fighter?

in the book you figure a persons encumbrance is their brawn+5. so would a star fighter be . . .

silhouette + or x what number or would you take the star fighters encumbrance capacity + or x what number. . .

IMO it should be minimum of x 10 to a max of x 100 . .. .what would you use to figure this out.

i wouldn't go with 100 however. the speeder bikes from ep 6 are Sil 2, but you could probably pack in about 6~10 of them in the same space it would take for z95. And would be able to haul much more that 8 of them in a freighter the size of a Wayfarer.

in the book you figure a persons encumbrance is their brawn+5. so would a star fighter be . . .

that would be the encumbrance they can carry, not necessarily the encumbrance the person is.

The math on this is perhaps a bit silly, and totally arbitrary, but bear with me.

So, assume that the retrofitted hangar would replace your standard cargo capacity. max it out at 30 sil. that would be 10 snubfighters. Assuming that the mods are just a better use of space/effiency and the attachment doesn't increase the sil of the freighter, it would then mean in a very twisted and perverse method of logic, that at best, you could fit 10 snub fighters in a sil 5 ship. so, divide the cargo capacity by 10 and you get 85 enc / sil 3 object.

For sil 2 objects, it comes out to be about 57 Enc/item for 15 items. 29 enc for sil 1 objects. at 30.

Not perfect, but it makes a certain kind of sense... at least to me.

in the book you figure a persons encumbrance is their brawn+5. so would a star fighter be . . .

that would be the encumbrance they can carry, not necessarily the encumbrance the person is.

Actually, it also represents the encumbrance value of the person. There is a very specific example in the Encumbrance section of the Equipment chapter, but I can't remember the page number. It describes a Wookiee attempting to carry an unconscious Rodian. Because the Rodian's encumbrance threshold is 7 (5 + Brawn (2)), the Wookiee must be able to carry an additional 7 encumbrance or face the penalties.

The math on this is perhaps a bit silly, and totally arbitrary, but bear with me.

So, assume that the retrofitted hangar would replace your standard cargo capacity. max it out at 30 sil. that would be 10 snubfighters. Assuming that the mods are just a better use of space/effiency and the attachment doesn't increase the sil of the freighter, it would then mean in a very twisted and perverse method of logic, that at best, you could fit 10 snub fighters in a sil 5 ship. so, divide the cargo capacity by 10 and you get 85 enc / sil 3 object.

For sil 2 objects, it comes out to be about 57 Enc/item for 15 items. 29 enc for sil 1 objects. at 30.

Not perfect, but it makes a certain kind of sense... at least to me.

I view encumbrance and silhouette as two totally separate things: silhouette is all about the size or volume of the object, and while encumbrance also considers size, it seems to be more about weight. So a hangar could be just big enough to handle the volume of a Z-95, but it might be able to carry a whole lot more weight. For this reason, I don't think that I would want to make silhouette and encumbrance interchangeable.

p152. and you are correct, my apologies.

It also does say the enc is more than weight. it includes bulk, mass, and ease of carrying. later on it also says that "large items such as shipping crates, repeating blaster rifles and heavy tool boxes can be enc 5~6. most the shipping crates i've seen, the wooden ones anyway, were about person sized. I don't think any of that is relevant however...

given that the PC' would then realistically cap at 10-11 enc and the Eweb is Enc 9... i'm not really sure anymore...

if you divide the cargo space 7 (brawn +2) it's 122 (rounding up) which would be people, on average...

I"m happy with the 85 enc for a Z95. it's apples to ardvarks but i think one would be about as encumbering as 9 or so ewebs.

*shrug* up to you though.

Yeah. If seems that the Wayfarer wasn't all that well thought out when it was added to the suggested list of starting vehicles. I saw it as a cool way to have a traveling base of operations a-la The Beebop. But of course what I was reading was the wookiepedia entry since I had never heard of it. I started getting really confused when I got to the part in the book where I had to BUY hangar bays....which it seemed it already had from the layout I found. Then I was even more confused by how few vehicles it could hold. It was reading like I could hold one star fighter...and a bike...AFTER I paid extra to get the bays I thought I already had. That was blowing my mind. Not to even mention the missing port side turret. I'm very close to just trashing all my wayfarer plans and just giving my group a Citadel-Class and being done with it. I would love to work within the confines of the rules, but when it doesn't make any sense I have to house rule it and it makes me feel like cheat. I hope they have some kind of errata or clarification on these guys. Rant over. Sorry about that.

But as to the OP I think sil x10 seems reasonable and is probably going to be what I use with my players.

There's a difference between taking a fighter or speeder as cargo vs taking it in a hanger. For a start they wouldn't be easily deployable and for second you'd be hard pressed to get a fighter up the cargo lift/ramp/whatever on a sil 5 transport. EC of cargo becomes redundant if you can't get the cargo onboard.

The hanger is a workable solution although the fact it doesn't take up EC itself baffles me somewhat. As to the +sil mods, I think that could have been thought out/worded better. Given the huge differences in sizes, I'd rule it as +1/5th base size per mod. Sil 5 gets +1, sil 6 gets +4 and sil 7+ gets +12, allowing each to double the max sil if all mods are taken.