This is one of the more entertaining threads I've read on here...

Dekarr, if you are someone's sock puppet, then you are my favorite.

I think there are two discussions going on here, and they are being treated as a single thing:

The first issue is the copyright from a legal perspective. That one is pretty clear cut: if you are using someone's artwork to make your tokens, you are infringing on the owner's copyright. People who don't deal with copyrighted material may disagree, but that doesn't change anything.

In the end, the real question is "if someone sends you a Cease and Desist, do you feel confident enough to ignore it and eventually (pay to) fight it in court?" For a project of this scale I would assume the answer would be "no."

The second issue, which I think is more relevant, is whether you ethically should be able to do use the images, and if this form of infringement causes any real harm. That's (obviously) a lot more a thorny question.

I'd throw my 2¢ into the ring about the rights of artists, but I'm not giving a dime to Lucasfilm or John Williams when I use their music for my game's intro crawl, so there you go.

I am an artist, so I take this question seriously.

However I am also a gamer.

I don't think it is particularly immoral or harmful to make your own counters from art you find online. I also don't think it is a particularly enforceable part of the copyright law..

But artists will be thrilled to be asked. Even if they say no.

This is one of the more entertaining threads I've read on here...

Dekarr, if you are someone's sock puppet, then you are my favorite.

I think there are two discussions going on here, and they are being treated as a single thing:

The first issue is the copyright from a legal perspective. That one is pretty clear cut: if you are using someone's artwork to make your tokens, you are infringing on the owner's copyright. People who don't deal with copyrighted material may disagree, but that doesn't change anything.

In the end, the real question is "if someone sends you a Cease and Desist, do you feel confident enough to ignore it and eventually (pay to) fight it in court?" For a project of this scale I would assume the answer would be "no."

The second issue, which I think is more relevant, is whether you ethically should be able to do use the images, and if this form of infringement causes any real harm. That's (obviously) a lot more a thorny question.

I'd throw my 2¢ into the ring about the rights of artists, but I'm not giving a dime to Lucasfilm or John Williams when I use their music for my game's intro crawl, so there you go.

Well said. I feel there have been compelling arguments on both sides (and funny analogies). It does make me truly think twice about not contacting artists responsible for art I use, although I do agree that using their art in my games does not affect their livelihood. I do think it's worth it for the sake of being nice and respectful. Will I do it? I don't know. I guess that's one of those situations where I have to weigh guilt and altruism versus sloth and apathy.

I agree that Lucasfilm and John Williams have enough money, although there is something to be said for the idea that they have accumulated so much wealth partly because not everyone is a media pirate. I do feel much more sympathy for the starving artist, so to speak.

But artists will be thrilled to be asked. Even if they say no.

I have to agree with this part. If nothing else, it gives the artist some validation that the time and effort they've put into their work is appreciated. I've had a couple folks decline my requests to use a piece of their art for a GSA article, but they've always thanked me for asking and for appreciating their art enough to want to make use of it.

But ultimately, so long as those tokens are just used strictly for your home games and are not put up on the web to be downloaded, I don't see it as being a huge deal if you don't ask permission for every piece of art. Note the emphasis in that prior sentence; if you're even thinking of putting these up on the web at any point in the future, then take the time to track down the original artist and get their permission. I've found that so long as you give the artist credit and include a link to their main webpage or gallery, most of artists are happy to let you make use of their artwork.

As an artist, I can say that asking permission is definitely favorable to taking without asking. As a person employed in a technology capacity, I recognize that art is often found on the websites of people who have already taken without asking. These sites often give no indication of where the art came from, or try to claim credit for the work themselves. This adds another layer of wrinkles to the subject. Fortunately, those attempting to rip-off artists usually miss the metadata or "exif" data in the files, which can lead back to the originating artist.

I've given permission for limited use of my artwork for trivial sums before. Considering what we've already invested in the rulebook, dice, and GM kits, is paypaling a few bucks to buy the artist a beer so abhorrent? Maybe the artist is worried about diluting his brand, or just an arrogant prick. Would you steal something off his property? Then why infringe his work?

Doing a little due-diligence to ask an artist isn't really that much to ask if you want to use their artWORK. Yes, artWORK. No matter how you try to rationalize it, it takes work to produce good art. Years of work to build up the skill, and hours, days, or months to produce a good piece. If your boss tried to with-hold your paycheck for ANY reason, would you accept a response stating that you shouldn't have left your work where someone else could claim it?

/soapbox /over-dramatization

P.S. http://www.deviantart.com is a valuable resource if you are looking for art created by artists. The artists have a community that has caught and removed infringing "artists", and there is a large population of star wars artists there as well. There are many up-and-coming artists who will do commissions for a low fee. Supporting an artist and getting exactly what you want for a low fee? Win-Win!

As an artist, I can say that asking permission is definitely favorable to taking without asking. As a person employed in a technology capacity, I recognize that art is often found on the websites of people who have already taken without asking. These sites often give no indication of where the art came from, or try to claim credit for the work themselves. This adds another layer of wrinkles to the subject. Fortunately, those attempting to rip-off artists usually miss the metadata or "exif" data in the files, which can lead back to the originating artist.

I've given permission for limited use of my artwork for trivial sums before. Considering what we've already invested in the rulebook, dice, and GM kits, is paypaling a few bucks to buy the artist a beer so abhorrent? Maybe the artist is worried about diluting his brand, or just an arrogant prick. Would you steal something off his property? Then why infringe his work?

Doing a little due-diligence to ask an artist isn't really that much to ask if you want to use their artWORK. Yes, artWORK. No matter how you try to rationalize it, it takes work to produce good art. Years of work to build up the skill, and hours, days, or months to produce a good piece. If your boss tried to with-hold your paycheck for ANY reason, would you accept a response stating that you shouldn't have left your work where someone else could claim it?

/soapbox /over-dramatization

P.S. http://www.deviantart.com is a valuable resource if you are looking for art created by artists. The artists have a community that has caught and removed infringing "artists", and there is a large population of star wars artists there as well. There are many up-and-coming artists who will do commissions for a low fee. Supporting an artist and getting exactly what you want for a low fee? Win-Win!

Plus it is a great way to NOT GET SUED.

Heh, even sending an e-mail to an artist to tell them that you appreciate their work when it's part of a packaged deal that you paid for is still sometimes nice. Zoe Robinson seemed really happy to get my e-mail after I opened up my beginner box.

For those that think this issue is ludicrous, I understand. Having worked in a field where I have to constantly be aware of copyright law, I find the situation to be frustrating at times. Mark Twain has some wonderful quotables on how horridly complex the system was even in his day... and he didn't have clauses dealing with digital duplication.

Just remember one thing about intellectual property and copyright law, if you've got a simple example, it's flawed. Anything that takes less than three pages to explain with no less than six footnotes fails to take into consideration one aspect of the law or another.

That being said, everyday life is usually filled with several dozen inadvertant or ignorant infringements of the law. I understand if you think it's silly, and in some ways it may be, but in the end if asking permission doesn't disproportionately harm you, why not just go ahead and do it?

Well if I knew who the artist was behind the pictures I used for the tokens I would definitely thank them.