Back when I got involved in Warhammer in the late 1980s, I remember reading in the White Dwarf that after the Horus Heresy, the Imperial forces were reorganized to prevent such a large scale rebellion ever happening again.

Imperial army regiments became single type Imperial Guard regiments (e.g. only infantry, tanks or artillery) so several would need to rebel to form a combined arms force.

The Imperial Navy controlled all ships and aeronautica but lacked ground forces.

And the space marines were thus reliant upon the navy to get anywhere and use their awesomeness....

So when did the sales guys overthrow this edict?

The Astartes never lost their ships, it was the Imperial Army that got separated into the Guard and the Navy.

Nope, I am pretty sure the space marines were without ships. The idea being that they (the most powerful 'individual' force) would require navy ships too to move. So if a chapter went bad, it would not be able to cause that much damage. Hence my surprise when Battlefleet Gothic revealed space marine vessels.

Perhaps someone still has all the old WD's?

I don't know the exact timeline of fluff changes, but while the Adeptus Astartes retained fleets post-Heresy, the size and structure of those fleets was severely limited. If you read up on the Space Marine ships in Battlefleet Gothic, you'll see that they are designed as delivery mechanisms for the Astartes rather than ships of the line. The description for their best fleet-combat escort mentions that many other Imperial institutions get upset whenever one is built or whenever a Chapter adopts the ship class, as they are designed to wage war against other voidships rather than effectively deliver a strike force. So, the notion of Astartes fleet strength being restricted post-Heresy is still very much there, it's simply that the Astartes kept some where the Imperial Army lost it entirely in the restructuring that created the Imperial Guard.

After the Horus Heresy the Astartes were limited not by their splitting of ships and ground forces. Instead it was decided that all of the legions would be split into chapters of a thousand Space Marines each with their own split of the ancillary personnel and material.

This was the second founding. In theory it meant that were another uprising each Chapter Masters power is severely limited and they would need to convince many more independent chapters to join them to become a significant threat.

They had their own ships though as far as I've ever read, although these were limited when spread out, and this allows them have a strategic mobility and battlefield support that far exceeds that of any force that relies entirely on the Imperial Navy for transport. This is vital for the Space Marines who's rely on engagement speed to make up for their small numbers.

There are a few chapters that are fleet based, the Black Templars springs to mind as the brightest example, given their eternal crusade.

There are a few chapters that are fleet based, the Black Templars springs to mind as the brightest example, given their eternal crusade.

And don't forget the Carcharodons!

After the Horus Heresy, Astartes where limited in the size & number of warships available.

In fleet actions the space marines are heavily reliant upon Frigates & smaller, for ship-to-ship combat. Cruiser & above are purely for orbital bombardment & troop deployment. Their primary tactic is to board & disable enemy vessels.

Only the Astartes battle barges, could go toe-to-toe with an equivalent tonnage Navy ship, but the Naval vessel should have more guns & speed.

Navy Battle Ships are the Biggest ships-of-the-line the imperium have. Only chapters like the Space Wolves would even consider having anything approaching the fire-power/size of a navy warship. The 'Nova'-class destroyer is a controversial addition to marine fleets due to it's speed & fire-power.

Simply; the Codex Astartes made the Marines reliant upon the navy to clear the enemy fleet whilst marine vessels breach the static defences, such as stations & mine fields.

This was first mentioned way back in 'Space fleet' & accompanying acticles in white dwarf. 'Space Fleet' COULD be considered as 'Battle Fleet Gothic 1st edition'.

ym ensse wto;

The other thing to keep in mind is that the number of ships posessed by any Space Marine chapter is very small. For example in one of the codexs the Blood Angel's fleet was listed as 2 Battle Barges, 7 Strike Cruisers and 16 Destroyers/Frigates. Now some chapters probably do have more (particuarly fleet based chapters) but the total number is never going to be that high.

After the Horus Heresy, Astartes where limited in the size & number of warships available.

In fleet actions the space marines are heavily reliant upon Frigates & smaller, for ship-to-ship combat. Cruiser & above are purely for orbital bombardment & troop deployment. Their primary tactic is to board & disable enemy vessels.

Only the Astartes battle barges, could go toe-to-toe with an equivalent tonnage Navy ship, but the Naval vessel should have more guns & speed.

Navy Battle Ships are the Biggest ships-of-the-line the imperium have. Only chapters like the Space Wolves would even consider having anything approaching the fire-power/size of a navy warship. The 'Nova'-class destroyer is a controversial addition to marine fleets due to it's speed & fire-power.

Simply; the Codex Astartes made the Marines reliant upon the navy to clear the enemy fleet whilst marine vessels breach the static defences, such as stations & mine fields.

This was first mentioned way back in 'Space fleet' & accompanying acticles in white dwarf. 'Space Fleet' COULD be considered as 'Battle Fleet Gothic 1st edition'.

ym ensse wto;

This is patently not true, Space Marine vessels on a ton for ton basis, far far outperform standard Naval vessels in damage dealing capacity, damage soaking capacity and lethality in multi spectrum roles.

Where the Navy comes into its own is Space Marine chapters usually have 1-3 Battle Barges, and 8-10 Strike Cruisers, and some smaller ships, the Navy has hundreds and hundreds of ships in each sector, they vastly outnumber the ships availiable to a chapter.

Don't forget most SM vessels were constructed pre heresy using tech/knowledge/materials that are forgotten/lost/forbidden in todays 40K universe. (according to cannon and fluff)

In any story I have ever read SM vessels are pure death to Navy vessels, and I have followed GW stuff since I was 14...23 years ago, I even worked for GW for nearly a decade.

This is patently not true, Space Marine vessels on a ton for ton basis, far far outperform standard Naval vessels in damage dealing capacity, damage soaking capacity and lethality in multi spectrum roles.

Where the Navy comes into its own is Space Marine chapters usually have 1-3 Battle Barges, and 8-10 Strike Cruisers, and some smaller ships, the Navy has hundreds and hundreds of ships in each sector, they vastly outnumber the ships availiable to a chapter.

Don't forget most SM vessels were constructed pre heresy using tech/knowledge/materials that are forgotten/lost/forbidden in todays 40K universe. (according to cannon and fluff)

In any story I have ever read SM vessels are pure death to Navy vessels, and I have followed GW stuff since I was 14...23 years ago, I even worked for GW for nearly a decade.

Stories are not game fluff. Be that as it may, Great crusade battle barges are not post-heresy battle barges. Crusade Barges were anything that could deploy enough ground forces for a campaign.

Current SM ships are Codex ships, meaning post-acension. They are also designed specifically for planetary assault, which navy vessels are not.

Tonne-for-tonne SM ships outperform navy in their specific role, tonne-for-tonne navy ship out perform SM ships in their specific role. That is the whole basis of the Guilliman's reforms.

& if we are going to do the time thing, I have followed GW stuff for the last 30 years.

But I am not saying you are wrong. I really do not feel like getting into an argument over this.

If you use the Battlefleet Gothic rules system for space combat then a marine Battlebarge is an ass kicker, out ranking a battleship in sheer offensive firepower, its bombardment cannons are terrifying for anything getting in the way of them and they critical more often.

I think that is one of the contreversies of Battlefleet Gothic. It has been argued by many at the very least that the Bombardment Cannon should be toned down in it's effective anti-ship power, at least partly as that is not what the weapon is meant to be designed for.

I think that is one of the contreversies of Battlefleet Gothic. It has been argued by many at the very least that the Bombardment Cannon should be toned down in it's effective anti-ship power, at least partly as that is not what the weapon is meant to be designed for.

I think that the devastating firepower of the battlebarge bombardment cannons are a side effect of carrying continent cracking firepower on your ship. They are made to bust through heavily reinforced ground installations, which are, for all intents and purposes, Navy ships without engines and ramming prows, with all the trimmings including void shields, meters of plating, and capital ship sized lance arrays. The only reason the Navy doesn't carry them is because they are filthy expensive (Battlebarges are around 25% more expensive than the relatively upgunned battleships), and Nova Cannons tend to perform better in void engagements (the AoE is pretty **** deadly, especially against annoying Eldars). Hell, only Necron Tombships are more expensive, and they have their own issues. The Space Marine fleet is deadly at what it does well (close ranged knife-fight engagements where the boarding torpedoes and bombardement cannons can murder anything within range, unless that something is a Tyrannid fleet filled with close ranged Krakens and Cruisers)., but isn't great at long ranged engagements.

Aye. The Bombardment Cannon is great in terms of damage, but its limited range means you'd have to get close. Which means having to survive the barrage of longer ranged Naval guns first. And if the Navy player is clever, he may manage to draw out this advantage a bit by clever manoeuvering. Lastly, of course you will rarely have one Battle Barge face one Battleship, but rather fleet versus fleet ...

From all I've heard about the respective BFG battles so far, IN vs SM battles are a bloodbath.

So when did the sales guys overthrow this edict?

I think the answer you're looking for is a short time after the Battlefleet Gothic boxed game came out, the idea being, of course, to sell Space Marine ships. Remember, sales trumps background every time.

So when did the sales guys overthrow this edict?

I think the answer you're looking for is a short time after the Battlefleet Gothic boxed game came out, the idea being, of course, to sell Space Marine ships. Remember, sales trumps background every time.

Black templars: fleet based chapter

Bloodquest: Battlebarges under chapter employ, one given to 'disgraced' captain and a single squad of blood angels to go hunt for a lost sword.

White Panthers arriving in their own ship in 3rd ed codex story.

Essentially, as long as space marines have acted outside Imperial authority (which is since forever in universe, and post 1st - WH40k:ALPHA and maybe 2nd edition - WH40K: BETA where GW still hadn't fully fleshed out their own background or hammered their ruleset into shape), they've had their own ships.

There is no background issue here I can see. Space Marines are not part of the Imperium, though they defend it per command of the Emperor. They don't need permission from Imperial authorities, nor require support from Imperial organizations to carry out their missions. The absence of their own ships would essentially neuter space marines. The power the Imperium would have over them via monopoly on warp transit would make them no more than Imperial Guard shock troops. They can not be space marines without their own transportation under their own control.

So when did the sales guys overthrow this edict?

I think the answer you're looking for is a short time after the Battlefleet Gothic boxed game came out, the idea being, of course, to sell Space Marine ships. Remember, sales trumps background every time.

Black templars: fleet based chapter

Bloodquest: Battlebarges under chapter employ, one given to 'disgraced' captain and a single squad of blood angels to go hunt for a lost sword.

White Panthers arriving in their own ship in 3rd ed codex story.

Essentially, as long as space marines have acted outside Imperial authority (which is since forever in universe, and post 1st - WH40k:ALPHA and maybe 2nd edition - WH40K: BETA where GW still hadn't fully fleshed out their own background or hammered their ruleset into shape), they've had their own ships.

There is no background issue here I can see. Space Marines are not part of the Imperium, though they defend it per command of the Emperor. They don't need permission from Imperial authorities, nor require support from Imperial organizations to carry out their missions. The absence of their own ships would essentially neuter space marines. The power the Imperium would have over them via monopoly on warp transit would make them no more than Imperial Guard shock troops. They can not be space marines without their own transportation under their own control.

Very well said.

As I said earlier there ships are very tough and very powerful, they are designed to get them through a defending fleet and into low orbit to be able to launch drop pods as fast as possible or into boarding pod range, this means on a ton for ton basis nothing is comparable in the Imperial arsenal.

SM are all about shock assaults, not long protracted fights where the enemies superior numbers can be brought into play.

This has always been true in 40k, one of the very few remaining constants.

And as I recall the power structure of the Imperium was Emperor > Mechanicus : Adepetus Astartes : High Lords : inquisition, everything else falls under the umbrella of one of them factions.

There is no background issue here I can see. Space Marines are not part of the Imperium, though they defend it per command of the Emperor. They don't need permission from Imperial authorities, nor require support from Imperial organizations to carry out their missions. The absence of their own ships would essentially neuter space marines. The power the Imperium would have over them via monopoly on warp transit would make them no more than Imperial Guard shock troops. They can not be space marines without their own transportation under their own control.

I agree that there is no background issue here - though what you are saying isn't quite how GW fluff describes it either. The Space Marines are technically subject to the authority of the High Lords, who speak for the Emperor, and on multiple times Imperial organisations ranging from the Navy (Armageddon Defence Corridor) to the Ministorum (Abyssal Crusade) all the way to the Inquisition (Relictors) have attempted and succeeded to force their demands upon a Chapter, or, in extremely harsh cases, destroyed it for its resistance.

In the question of "power control" and military assets, WD #249 and its Index Astartes article on the Black Templars mentions how the Imperial Navy opened fire on the Imperial Fists in response to Dorn at first resisting the Codex Astartes.

Likewise, GW fluff is at times rather clear about the Space Marines requiring support from at least the Imperial Guard to take a heavily defended world or fight an especially numerous enemy - here is one example, the Guard codices would have another. The times when the Astartes were nigh-unstoppable line infantry are gone since about 10.000 years; this limitation in power was the whole reason behind Guilliman creating the Codex Astartes, and whilst a rather large number of Chapters is deviating from it in some way, the Imperium zealously watches that none of them oversteps the degree of leniency granted by their importance and history of service.

tl;dr: Space Marines exist alongside the Imperium, but they are not free of its strings entirely . The chart in the 6E rulebook shows this rather nicely. There exists a fine bond of vague allegiance, but how much it is respected depends very much on the individual Chapter and its leader. The Imperium condones their stubbornness - up to a point. It is this constant diplomatic wrangling, the back-and-forth of requests and gestures and demands, that gives it such an interesting spin.

All of the above is merely gleaned from looking at GW sources, however ... it is well possible that there exists licensed material in conflict with this interpretation, so please only take this as one possible version of the 41st millennium. As the writers once explained, even Codex fluff is not any more true or mandatory than novel fluff, this RPG, or, yes, even your own ideas!

While you can't tell from Lynata's picture, since it only details the Battle Barge, the ships of the Adeptus Astartes are on a whole 5 cm faster than most of the equivalent ships (people often say the Strike Cruiser would be classed as a Light Cruiser, but it's just too heavily armed and armoured). The only other exception is the Cobra Destroyer which moves 35 cm like its Space Marine torpedo boat counterpart. So that's some pretty good rules support for the idea that their ships aren't sluggish.

I forget, we still haven't seen stats for Space Marines ships in RT, have we? I do recall reading in BF: Koronus that Navy ships tend to have Best quality components. For Space Marines, it seems like it'd be the rule.

Since only the Ultramarine actually follow the codex... ok Fist do too but the fortress they have goes agaisn't navy doctrine but since it was given top them by the emperor we will close an eye on it...

Basically every chapter that does not follow Codex as a fleet:

- Wolfs have refused the codex and by refusing they haven't been splited in chapters and still have a fleet for each great company.

- Black Templars alto a chapter, it is a fleet based chapter and the fact they range for and wide within the Empire, no one is sure on how many ship they have.

- Dark Angel have their own secret fleet for the 1st company action.

- Charadon and many other small secretive fleet based chapter, report shoes they have pirate captured ships and other refitted cpatured vessels.

- Iron Hands, would not be surprised many of those allied mechanicus ships are Iron Hand's own. Theire ties as always been seen as a way of getting out of the codex's rules.

"Bloodquest: Battlebarges under chapter employ, one given to 'disgraced' captain and a single squad of blood angels to go hunt for a lost sword."

Do they actually ever call that a battle barge? Given its armament, it doesn't appear much more than a destroyer.

The astartes have always had their ships as far as I know. In rogue trader way back when, it was specifically the Imperial Army that didn't have its own ships (which has since become the post-heresy reforms taking them away).

As noted, an astartes battle barge is tougher and more heavily armed than an imperial navy battleship. It's also slower, less manouvreable and its weapons are less well suited for ship-to-ship engagements - which is right because the chapter fleets aren't supposed to be for naval engagements, they're supposed to be for planetary assaults. The Nova -class frigate - which carries a lance (the imperium's primary antiship energy weapon) causes serious tensions with the navy because it's quite clearly a ship designed for a role the astartes aren't supposed to be capable of.

In a broadside-to-broadside fight, astartes ships will tear a navy ship of the same displacement apart, but for a battle barge to catch a navy battleship isn't easy as the latter is more agile (and that's saying something given that these things are armoured fortresses ~ ten kilometres long!) whilst a strike cruiser is only light cruiser sized and a navy line cruiser or battlecruiser still outmasses it in a straight fight.

From Battlefleet Gothic Armada :

When Gulliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes
proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally
important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested
strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors.

Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with.

"Bloodquest: Battlebarges under chapter employ, one given to 'disgraced' captain and a single squad of blood angels to go hunt for a lost sword."

Do they actually ever call that a battle barge? Given its armament, it doesn't appear much more than a destroyer.

The astartes have always had their ships as far as I know. In rogue trader way back when, it was specifically the Imperial Army that didn't have its own ships (which has since become the post-heresy reforms taking them away).

As noted, an astartes battle barge is tougher and more heavily armed than an imperial navy battleship. It's also slower, less manouvreable and its weapons are less well suited for ship-to-ship engagements - which is right because the chapter fleets aren't supposed to be for naval engagements, they're supposed to be for planetary assaults. The Nova -class frigate - which carries a lance (the imperium's primary antiship energy weapon) causes serious tensions with the navy because it's quite clearly a ship designed for a role the astartes aren't supposed to be capable of.

In a broadside-to-broadside fight, astartes ships will tear a navy ship of the same displacement apart, but for a battle barge to catch a navy battleship isn't easy as the latter is more agile (and that's saying something given that these things are armoured fortresses ~ ten kilometres long!) whilst a strike cruiser is only light cruiser sized and a navy line cruiser or battlecruiser still outmasses it in a straight fight.

Yes, the ship the outcasts were given was called a battle barge. Didn't look anything like any of the BFG ships ever released though. Honestly it probably should have been an escort but we can't go back and change it now. I think the writer might simply have assumed all Astartes ships were called battle barges.

Try not to pidgeonhole Astartes ships. They were not built solely for planetary assaults, but they were significantly overbuilt to make it easier for the space marines to carry out that role. Astartes ships were built for all manner of fleet action. The Gladius and Nova for instance have no real value in any kind of boarding or planetary assault being crewed by, at most, a single squad of marines. The Glladius was used for patrols, pickets, and escort coverage for larger engagements. The Nova was a pure gunboat, but as Astartes choose to let the Navy, which has a larger number of ships, to carry out fleet engagements most of the time most chapters have very few of these ships.

Astartes ships, even the battle barge, were actually universally faster than the standard imperial ships of the line. A typical Imperial Battleship moved only 15cm while the Space Marine battle barge could move 20cm. The mass of the ship made the battle barge, like almost all battleships, slow to maneuver though. Astartes strike cruisers moved 5cm faster than imperial cruisers and their escorts moved up to 10cm! faster than the imperial versions. Speed was a weapon, and advantage, space marines frequently used against their opponents.

The reason the Navy gets in a tizz about the Nova is due to their (the navy's) idea of the balance of power. Outside of any chapter specific official treaties with the navy, there is no real rules preventing a chapter from using as many Novas or other vessels they want. Practical limitations play a larger part in chapter fleet sizes, rather. A chapter just cannot muster enough serfs, or Astartes to crew a large fleet. Plus the resources to fuel and stock such ships would put a strain on their trade and support treaties with the imperium and ad mech (which you can think of as limiters for an Astartes fleet). No forge world will want to send half its output to one chapter just because they, "want a big ole fleet that doesn't do anything."

All that said, I believe many chapters, especially the first founding, have mothballed assets. Ships (and other vehicles) held in storage and not on any officially recognized roster, which they can recommision when the need arises. More recent foundings are more likely not to have such resources though.

As noted, an astartes battle barge is tougher and more heavily armed than an imperial navy battleship. It's also slower, less manouvreable and its weapons are less well suited for ship-to-ship engagements - which is right because the chapter fleets aren't supposed to be for naval engagements, they're supposed to be for planetary assaults. The Nova -class frigate - which carries a lance (the imperium's primary antiship energy weapon) causes serious tensions with the navy because it's quite clearly a ship designed for a role the astartes aren't supposed to be capable of.

In a broadside-to-broadside fight, astartes ships will tear a navy ship of the same displacement apart, but for a battle barge to catch a navy battleship isn't easy as the latter is more agile (and that's saying something given that these things are armoured fortresses ~ ten kilometres long!) whilst a strike cruiser is only light cruiser sized and a navy line cruiser or battlecruiser still outmasses it in a straight fight.

From Battlefleet Gothic Armada :

When Gulliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with.

Except Battle Barges aren't slower or less maneuverable. You're the only one saying that, and there's nothing to back you up. The picture that Lynata put up last just page proved that. This link proves that. Your own quote hardly backs you up, saying, " There was a whole bunch of political wrangling, and everyone just dis/obeys the edict to some degree or another anyway. "

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350031a_BFG_Imperial_Fleets.pdf

And http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2360395a_m1280005_BFG_Ships_of_the_Gothic_Sector.pdf

Battle Barges are faster than some of Battleship classes that the Navy has, while no Grand Cruisers or Battlecruisers are faster than it (ie: they're the same speed).

They're actually slightly less defended, with weaker shields and point defences, but they make up for it being heavily armoured all around. And their weapons lack range but not punch in the least. See Grendel, the thing about planetary assaults is that all to often any planet worth assaulting is going to have at least one, and more likely a combination of the 3 main types of anti-starship defences. Ground based, orbital based, and other ships . So while the Space Marines starships are supposed to focus on ground assaults and other support roles for the actual Marines, they still actually need to fight other ships, and be good at it, to perform their primary role.

Also, what isn't included in all those raw stats, is that Space Marine fleets also get bonuses toward hit and run attacks, boarding actions, and planetary assaults. And their attack craft (Thunderhawks) only have a 50/50 chance of being removed after attacking ordnance or other attack craft. So yeah.

And here's the thing about the Strike Cruiser. Sure it only has 6 hitpoints and 1 shield, but compared to any Light Cruiser in a one on one slug-match, it's going to burn them from stem to stern, no matter the circumstances. While almost every full Navy cruiser is going to limp away from a fight with one, if it walks away at all. Since at that point, we must remember that not only is it just as well armed in some cases, or close to it, but also faster and more maneuverable. And balancing out the deficiency in shields, more or less, is the 6+ armour on all sides (broadside being the important one).

I'd give the Strike Cruiser even chances against any of them.

The strike cruiser would have a decent chance against most light cruisers (And a couple of Standard cruisers), though strangely the original pattern Dauntless is the one most likely to cripple it, though a lot of players preferred the Torpedo version.