The value of the talent is inversely proportional to the GM's love of declaration rules outside of games like Fate. Yours darkly, for one, is no such fan of them -- especially given that it already has a narrative mechanic attached to the dice.

Exactly.

If a GM simply allows anything to go in regards to a PC spending a Destiny Point to have some bit of gear on hand, then Utility Belt as written isn't worth all that much.

But if a GM s more restrictive (such as limiting it to items with a Rarity of 0 or 1), or requires a certain degree of justification on the PC having the item, the Utility Belt becomes a lot more useful because it specifically bypasses those requirements and allows the player to say "I have this particular item!" while also removing the GM's ability to veto such a thing.

The usefulness of Utility Belt is directly proportional to the inventiveness of the player. I just had a look through the equipment section in the core rules, and there's all sorts of gear with a Rarity of 4 or less. Stimpacks, medpacks, macrobinoculars, breath masks, comlinks, datapads... A player who can't find a use for this simply isn't trying hard enough.

So what is the actual item utility belt for... Because one of my players is trying to use it like the talent (pretty much anyway)

So what is the actual item utility belt for... Because one of my players is trying to use it like the talent (pretty much anyway)

The item, itself, is just more pockets.

Yeah, thats what I told him. But he was adamant it had all sorts of things he could do with it. Must have been confusing it with the talent.

So what is the actual item utility belt for... Because one of my players is trying to use it like the talent (pretty much anyway)

For myself, the item utility belt is just like a backpack, it only increases the wearer encumbrance treshold... it states that you can store important items in there... but the character needs to have bought these items also... it doesn't produce those important items at whim....

Has for the difference between the talent UTILITY BELT and the Normal Destiny Point Flip, the difference is if what the player is asking is believable. Here are a few exemples.

Exemple #1 :

The characters are being pursued by stormtroopers in a secret imperial research station. Suddenly the characters come up on a locked door protected by an energy field. The GM wanted to have them make a last stand against the stormtroopers in an epic shootout.

Case #1 :

A characters says : I look in my bag full of spare parts and gizmos and I plug in a few parts to build a custom Inverted Polarity Flux Capacitor to short circuit the energy field ; I use the talent Utility Belt and flip a destiny point.

GM : Ok... you plug a few gizmos together and bust the energy shield... you guys can run away from the troopers.

Or

Case #2 :

A character says : I look around for an exit and I spot a air ducks leading down, I bust it open with my blaster and jump in ; I use a destiny point.

Gm : Ok... you jump down the air duck but fall down into a dianoga infested trash compactor.... good luck!

Exemple #2 :

Your characters are pursuing an imperial informant ; you almost cought up to him when he jumps in his speeder and drives away.

Case #1 :

A character says : I look around and I spot a fast speeder with an open top and keys on the contact ; I spend a destiny point.

GM : Ok.... (but later the GM will have the owner hunt down the characters, he's the son of a local crime lord)

or

Case #2 :

A character says : I look around in my bag and plug in a few gizmos to build a short range emiter build on a magnetic grappler ; I use the talent Utility Belt and flip a destiny point.

GM : Ok, you've got your emiter, now do a ranged (light) check to stick it on the moving speeder.

Exemple #3 :

The characters are on a mission to save a crashed rebel transport that contains vital informations for the rebellion. Following the emergency beacons leads them to an unexplored planet. When they get there, they realize that the local atmosphere is made of toxic gases. If the characters move outside the ship, they'll have to pass Resilience checks or suffer the effects of the atmosphere.

Case #1 : the characters have rebreathers but forgot them at their home base.

A character says : My character was overprepared and took the rebreathers onboard the ship before we left ; I flip a destiny point.

GM : Ok you've got your rebreathers with you guys.

or

Case #2 : the characters don't have rebreathers in their inventory.

A character says : When we where at the last spaceport (the game before), my character bought a few rebreathers just in case; I flip a destiny point.

GM : I told you guys the vendor had rebreathers on sale, 2 for the price of 1, but you didn't take them. So NO you didn't buy those rebreathers ; refunds the destiny point.

or

Case #3 :

A character says : I look around the ship for spare parts and I build an portable air flitering unit ; I use the talent Utility belt and flip a destiny point.

GM : Ok... your portable air filtering unit has an encumbrance of 1 and can only be used by one character at a time. If you pass it around, you can decrease the difficulty of the resilience check once for everyone.

This is how I would rule this in my group.

Hope this helps.

So what is the actual item utility belt for... Because one of my players is trying to use it like the talent (pretty much anyway)

Based on my understanding, anyone can potentially use a utility belt like the talent but the talent lets you use it as an incidental (remember, drawing items can be a manuever or an action depending on how concealed it is), and the talent allows you to bypass the veto power of the GM. This explains why the talent is more restrictive.

So my advice to you, is let your player use it like the talent, but you can always say no to his suggestions until he picks up the talent.

So my advice to you, is let your player use it like the talent, but you can always say no to his suggestions until he picks up the talent.

That seems incredibly generous for a mere 25 credits...

After reading the Utility Belt entry again (pg183) and the Utility Belt Talent (pg145) it's seems like just an unfortunate naming issue of the talent matching the name of the item. It's pretty clear that the Utility Belt item is just a way to hold an additional 1 ENC worth of 0 ENC items that the player is supposed to document. The Utility Belt Talent allows a PC to spend a Destiny Point to pull out a small (likely 0-1 ENC only), up to rarity 4, undocumented item from anywhere on the PC (not really subject to GM approval unless they feel it's too large).

Additionally reading the Destiny Point/Deus Ex Machina section (pg28) it's also seems clear that when spending a Destiny Point to "find" an item it is actually a suggestion to find any somewhat likely item (with no implicit ENC or Rarity restriction) within the scene and does not mean that the item is immediately available or on the PC, the GM may place the item anywhere and require some action to retrieve it. However "Player's should not abuse this use of Destiny Points: the more outrageous or unlikely the suggestion the more likely the GM will curtail the Players' use of Destiny Points" This clearly means that whatever the Players' ask for is not guaranteed to be given.

So here are the breakdowns:

Utility Belt (item): Carry up to 10 additional 0 ENC items in the PC's inventory.

Utility Belt Talent: Spend a Destiny Point to gain a small (likely 0-1 ENC), up to rarity 4, undocumented item from anywhere on the PC. (not really subject to GM approval unless they feel it's too large).

Destiny Point/Deus Ex Machina: Spend a Destiny Point to find any somewhat likely to be found item (with GM approval) somewhere within the scene and may require an action to find or retrieve.

So my advice to you, is let your player use it like the talent, but you can always say no to his suggestions until he picks up the talent.

That seems incredibly generous for a mere 25 credits...

You are probably right. Each table is different.

Yeah, Greg's pretty much got it.

Expending a Destiny point is a way to get a leg up on looting or patch a hole in the plot caused by player boo boos or bad rolls.

The utility belt talent is a way to get thrown in an imperial prison and still be able to expend a d-point to pull a comlink out of your bum.

I like that distinction.

The Destiny Point flip should be justifiable within the bounds of reason, while the Utility Belt incidental can have a much looser justification and result in a slightly better object or weapon.

Still skimming the overall rules, getting a feel for a game that's turning out to be far more interesting than I had originally expected. But I came across something odd.

The talent "Utility Belt" says you can spend a destiny point to produce an item. How is this different than the "Deus Ex Machina" capability that everyone has access to? I expect the answer is a matter of degree in what you can produce, but for a 25-point talent (at least for the Scout) it seems a very underwhelming option.

It's mostly an advantage to give free justification. The Deus Ex Machina ability relies a fair bit on being justifiable; for example, you can't just spend a Destiny Point and say, "Oh, there's a random blaster rifle behind the couch," but you can do something like, "There's a set of workable tools in the corner of the speeder garage."

The Utility Belt talent is helpful because a) it's its own justification, and b) the thing in question is on your person, right then and there.

Depending on how lenient your GM is with normal Destiny Point use, this might be less of an advantage, but Rarity 4 covers some pretty cool stuff, and it can be handy to be able to spend a Destiny Point to have it without having to convince the GM that your idea doesn't strain credulity.

You can't pull a blaster rifle out of a couch....You might pull a holdout, but, definitely thermal detonator or grenade out of a couch due to encumbrance guidelines.

So what is the actual item utility belt for... Because one of my players is trying to use it like the talent (pretty much anyway)

It's just a +1 to Encumbrance as an item.

The value of the talent is inversely proportional to the GM's love of declaration rules outside of games like Fate. Yours darkly, for one, is no such fan of them -- especially given that it already has a narrative mechanic attached to the dice.

Exactly.

If a GM simply allows anything to go in regards to a PC spending a Destiny Point to have some bit of gear on hand, then Utility Belt as written isn't worth all that much.

In this case, it might suit the gaming group to give the talent a small boost...for example, raising the Rarity cap or lifting the Limited Ammo 1 restriction.

Additionally reading the Destiny Point/Deus Ex Machina section (pg28) it's also seems clear that when spending a Destiny Point to "find" an item it is actually a suggestion to find any somewhat likely item (with no implicit ENC or Rarity restriction) within the scene and does not mean that the item is immediately available or on the PC,

My problem with this is that the VERY FIRST EXAMPLE GIVEN is, basically, "Boy, it's a good thing you thought to pack those rebreathers back then!" -- implying something that the PCs have just pulled out of their collective ... pockets as a retroactive plot convenience. NOT, "Boy, it's a good thing there are these rebreathers lying about nearby!"

The very first example would be of something that's NOT provided by the scene, but rather by some retroactively-declared "planning" on the part of a PC. It also doesn't include any indication that it requires the spending of actions, or any other expense on the part of a player; as written, it just seems to suggest that -- voila! -- thanks to the wonderful power of a Destiny Point, you just have it.

This to me seems to be very much like what the Utility Belt Talent is describing -- only the Utility Belt Talent adds specific limitations (and, presumably, it's still subject to GM approval, lest a player have a spare grenade in his pocket every time he flips a Destiny Point).

Here's my problem as a GM: I start by reading the rules up front. I skim over the Talents and such for the various character types, but I don't pay as much critical attention to each and every Talent in there as, say, a player would who's actually PLAYING that character (because he's got a whole lot less to focus on, and a whole lot more incentive to make the most out of what his character can do). When I read this bit up front that tells me what a Destiny Point can do via "Deus Ex Machina," it seems to give incredible freedom for the sorts of things players could provide on the spur of the moment.

If it had been limited to "You find something that could be reasonably discovered in the area," that would be an obvious limitation: If you're on a desolate asteroid, you're unlikely to find some conveniently placed blaster rifles. However, finding some rebreathers in the emergency supply kit of the shuttle you just stole (and yet crashed into this asteroid) seems perfectly reasonable. I have no reason to assume a caveat of "... except that it shouldn't be a weapon or a tool that could be in your utility belt, because that's going to be in a special Talent later on" at this stage. If that WERE the case, there really should have been a foot note right here, possibly with a cross-reference to the "Utility Belt" Talent later on, so spare the GM a bit of grief.

Once the examples are expanded to "Good thing you packed a such-and-such at some convenient time in the past," then I'm having a really hard time justifying the Utility Belt Talent, and I'm strongly suspecting that this is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right is up to (i.e., multiple writers, or an "editing artifact" where the Talent was in the system before they came up with that Deus Ex Machina example).

Now, maybe it would make for a good HOUSE RULE to say that the Deus Ex Machina / Luck usage simply doesn't let you "retcon" player preparation, and that the Utility Belt Talent is required for that. That would require negating the very first example given for "Deus Ex Machina," and it still might be a pretty fine point as to what, exactly, you might find in your utility belt that you absolutely could not find in your environment as a player-requested plot convenience. (It would entirely depend upon the delicate balance between player imagination and GM stubbornness at that point.)

Traveling into the desert and forgot blankets? - Deus ex machina. They discover they do have some rags with them that suffice, somebody DID think of it but didn't mention (survivalist makes check, number of blankets depend on the roll) or something like that.
I'd probably not give them enough, make them cuddle, receive a bit of strain/just recover half during the night, setback on first Brawn/Agility check next day, etc... Make them at least "pay" (a bit more than simply a destiny point) for preparing improperly.

Traveling into the desert, surprisingly encounter poison gas (bandit, shipwreck, creature etc.) and need a gas mask? - Utility Belt talent.

Sorry, you had no idea of knowing this. Either you're the type of guy that carries a gas mask or you don't. Tough luck. OH, you're a guy who has a utility belt with Bat-anti-gas-mask? Congratulation.

Additionally reading the Destiny Point/Deus Ex Machina section (pg28) it's also seems clear that when spending a Destiny Point to "find" an item it is actually a suggestion to find any somewhat likely item (with no implicit ENC or Rarity restriction) within the scene and does not mean that the item is immediately available or on the PC, the GM may place the item anywhere and require some action to retrieve it. However "Player's should not abuse this use of Destiny Points: the more outrageous or unlikely the suggestion the more likely the GM will curtail the Players' use of Destiny Points" This clearly means that whatever the Players' ask for is not guaranteed to be given.

My problem with this is that the VERY FIRST EXAMPLE GIVEN is, basically, "Boy, it's a good thing you thought to pack those rebreathers back then!" -- implying something that the PCs have just pulled out of their collective ... pockets as a retroactive plot convenience. NOT, "Boy, it's a good thing there are these rebreathers lying about nearby!" ...

Additionally reading the Destiny Point/Deus Ex Machina section (pg28) it's also seems clear that when spending a Destiny Point to "find" an item it is actually a suggestion to find any somewhat likely item (with no implicit ENC or Rarity restriction) within the scene and does not mean that the item is immediately available or on the PC,

My problem with this is that the VERY FIRST EXAMPLE GIVEN is, basically, "Boy, it's a good thing you thought to pack those rebreathers back then!" -- implying something that the PCs have just pulled out of their collective ... pockets as a retroactive plot convenience. NOT, "Boy, it's a good thing there are these rebreathers lying about nearby!"

The very first example would be of something that's NOT provided by the scene, but rather by some retroactively-declared "planning" on the part of a PC. It also doesn't include any indication that it requires the spending of actions, or any other expense on the part of a player; as written, it just seems to suggest that -- voila! -- thanks to the wonderful power of a Destiny Point, you just have it.

This to me seems to be very much like what the Utility Belt Talent is describing -- only the Utility Belt Talent adds specific limitations (and, presumably, it's still subject to GM approval, lest a player have a spare grenade in his pocket every time he flips a Destiny Point).

Here's my problem as a GM: I start by reading the rules up front. I skim over the Talents and such for the various character types, but I don't pay as much critical attention to each and every Talent in there as, say, a player would who's actually PLAYING that character (because he's got a whole lot less to focus on, and a whole lot more incentive to make the most out of what his character can do). When I read this bit up front that tells me what a Destiny Point can do via "Deus Ex Machina," it seems to give incredible freedom for the sorts of things players could provide on the spur of the moment.

If it had been limited to "You find something that could be reasonably discovered in the area," that would be an obvious limitation: If you're on a desolate asteroid, you're unlikely to find some conveniently placed blaster rifles. However, finding some rebreathers in the emergency supply kit of the shuttle you just stole (and yet crashed into this asteroid) seems perfectly reasonable. I have no reason to assume a caveat of "... except that it shouldn't be a weapon or a tool that could be in your utility belt, because that's going to be in a special Talent later on" at this stage. If that WERE the case, there really should have been a foot note right here, possibly with a cross-reference to the "Utility Belt" Talent later on, so spare the GM a bit of grief.

Once the examples are expanded to "Good thing you packed a such-and-such at some convenient time in the past," then I'm having a really hard time justifying the Utility Belt Talent, and I'm strongly suspecting that this is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right is up to (i.e., multiple writers, or an "editing artifact" where the Talent was in the system before they came up with that Deus Ex Machina example).

Now, maybe it would make for a good HOUSE RULE to say that the Deus Ex Machina / Luck usage simply doesn't let you "retcon" player preparation, and that the Utility Belt Talent is required for that. That would require negating the very first example given for "Deus Ex Machina," and it still might be a pretty fine point as to what, exactly, you might find in your utility belt that you absolutely could not find in your environment as a player-requested plot convenience. (It would entirely depend upon the delicate balance between player imagination and GM stubbornness at that point.)

GoM EDIT: Spoilered to reduce length.

The counter I have for you though is this also eliminates some really quality opportunities for the players to not only "Plan-B" but enact it in such a way that is really surprising and fun.

Stealing a page from another sci-fi franchise:

See in that instance the player had the opportunity, and the motive, and by using a D-point to introduce a "fact" instead of trying to actually execute the activity, it's a total surprise, and really paints the entire adventure in a new color in a far more interesting way as it's a surprise to everyone at the table except that dirty spy.

@Jordan, I can't tell by your post if you misunderstood me or we're on the same page

I've added the rest of the post you quoted me from which I think covers your point. I absolutely agree that the Duex Ex use of a DP shouldn't be a magical "poof" those rebreathers appear in your pack, thank the Force you "remembered" to pack them kind of thing. Even the example they give is not a guarantee, it's up to the GM to agree with the request. A GM can, rather than have the re-breathers in the PC's pack, instead be in an emergency locker just outside the airlock. An emergency locker that one of the PCs is going to have to get to through the poison gas to retrieve them...

Okay, the idea that the Deus Ex use of a DP only gives you an opportunity (rebreathers) but needn't make it EASY (you have to go through some trouble to get those rebreathers) is one that I just did not pick up from the rules as written. I've since gotten a response back from the folks at Fantasy Flight Games that (as I am reading it) seems to confirm your interpretation: Utility Belt puts the agency in the hands of the player (you want the item? you HAVE it), whereas the standard Deus Ex ability is meant more to be a plot convenience to move things forward -- and if it's TOO convenient, then the GM, if not simply vetoing the call, can introduce some sort of complication to keep things "interesting" (e.g., one of the rebreathers slips off) or at the very least have a drawback or cost involved (such as having to retroactively PAY for those rebreathers).

I'm still not sure I'm really reading that distinction clearly in the rules as written, but it seems a reasonable inference in order for something like "Utility Belt" to make any sort of sense ... and if I get any push-back from the players on a "Deus Ex" that's not quite as convenient as they expect, I can print off my email from Fantasy Flight Games and wave it about as if it confers me some sort of AUTHORITY my players haven't otherwise entrusted in me by virtue of being the GM.

Thanks for your patience with me -- I'm still fairly new to this system, and it's taking a bit of getting used to.

Jordan, could you share the exact wording of the question you sent and the answer you received?

Jordan, could you share the exact wording of the question you sent and the answer you received?

Here is the question I sent (which I categorized as a question for "Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG"):

How does the Utility Belt Talent improve upon the "Luck and Deus Ex Machina" use of Destiny Points that every player already has access to?

And what does "perform a Utility Belt incidental" mean? I can't find reference elsewhere to this as a game term.

"Luck and Deus Ex Machina" are covered on p. 28 of EotE. Specific examples are given of players gaining useful tools -- "Good thing you remembered to pack those rebreathers last time we were in dry dock, Pash."

Utility Belt (p. 72, 90 - Scout & Technician Talent Trees; p. 145 - extended description) provides a very specific tool or weapon with limitations (rarity no greater than 4; cannot be a weapon unless the weapon has the Limited Ammo quality).

There's nothing about the earlier description of Deus Ex Machina / Luck that would EXCLUDE anything described by Utility Belt. It's hard to see what gain the player gets for a 15 or 25 point talent (varies by career) that I wouldn't grant to any OTHER of my players who spends a Destiny Point and comes up with a reasonable suggestion.

How can I reconcile this, and justify the cost of the talent to my players?

Thanks!

Disclaimer: There's a bit of legalese in the response that indicates that the message is only intended for the specified recipient, etc. Based on the content, I'm assuming this was just a boilerplate tacked onto ANY message received from FFG, and that there's nothing "confidential" about a rules interpretation. (If I am wrong on that, I apologize in advance, and shall remove this message as necessary.)

That said, here's the response I got from FFG:

Hello Mr. Peacock,

First, I'll answer your question about the "perform a Utility Belt incidental," as it's the simpler of the two. Many of our talents allow players to perform a maneuver, action, or incidental with a specific name. The action, maneuver, or incidental is what's being described in the talent (so in the case of Utility Belt, the Utility Belt incidental is the act of spending a Destiny Point to suddenly possess an item of rarity four or less). So there are no other references to that as a game term; the Utility Belt incidental is a special incidental that's unique to characters with this talent, just as the Body Guard maneuver is available only to characters with the Body Guard talent and the Brilliant Evasion action is available only to characters with the Brilliant Evasion talent.

To your second question, how the Utility Belt talent and the deux ex machina rules for Destiny Points interact. The deus ex machina rules for Destiny Point use exist primarily in order to allow the storyline to progress without being bogged down in minutia or backtracking. In the example given in the book with the rebreathers, the GM could shrug and tell his players that their characters will have to leave and come back with environmental gear. However, that could prove a boring side trip that detracts unnecessarily from the main storyline. Producing rebreathers from the ship's stores is a minor boon to the PCs that allows the adventure to continue and the GM to inject interesting flavor into future events (perhaps in the next combat, a couple Threat means the character's rebreather slips off, or a leaky valve seal requires repairs during a tense moment).

In a similar vein, allowing the players to use a Destiny Point to find a stimpack in an abandoned medlab is hardly a stretch of credibility, and may be something the players need to advance the plot. If characters are injured but the players and GM both want the party to press on, a stimpack or some synthflesh may be just what they need to feel confident enough to continue.

However, this rule has to major limitations. The first is spending a Destiny Point; a tangible cost that reminds players that they can't simply rely on this mechanic to solve all their problems, and rewards the players who think ahead and prepare their characters for nearly any eventuality. The second and equally important limitation is that the GM has complete arbitration over how this rule is used, and can always veto an idea that seems to outlandish or abuses the spirit of the rules. Rebreathers on a toxic gas mining planet may be fine, but producing armored spacesuits with jetpacks could be absurd. The PCs may find a stimpack in an abandoned medlab, but not a working medical droid that they can use then sell for credits. The GM can even tweak the results of this rule to heighten excitement or tension; a character may duck behind cover that his player created using a Destiny Point, only to realize that the "cover" is a barrel of flamable liquids. It will provide cover, but if he rolls too many Threat on his next few checks...

Finally (and important to remember) while the PCs can use a Destiny Point to retroactively modify the story to allow them to have items they normally would not, it's just as reasonable for the GM to require them to have paid for those items in the past as well. If the PCs need six rebreathers, then they can spend a Destiny Point, and the GM can say they purchased the six rebreathers at the last port. The GM shouldn't assume this applies by default, but it's a reasonable option if the PCs are asking for something expensive.

On the other hand, the Utility Belt talent gives the player agency and authority, rather than the GM. Because the talent includes specific limitations (rarity 4, and no weapons that are not Limited Ammo 1), the GM should not impose additional limitations on the player when he uses it. Needless to say, the player shouldn't abuse this talent in a way that makes the game less fun for his fellow players (and fellow players includes the GM!). However, he's well within the rules to use the talent to produce a stun grenade while imprisoned to facilitate a jailbreak; slicer gear to slice through a locked door that would normally take a much more difficult check to overcome, or even an anesthetic poison to quietly knock out a guard. These are all uses that would be against the spirit and intent of the deus ex rule, but completely within the bounds of Utility Belt.

In addition, the Utility Belt talent is in no way predicated on possessing a utility belt item, or any kind of storage receptacle. The talent causes the item to "appear" out of thin air, after all.

I hope that helps!