Okay, at this point, I think I'll quit the discussion. To me, it seems reasonably certain that the Fear rules are not meant to apply to every single being in the galaxy, but to each his own.

technically in deathwatch some of the biotitans have a fear rating of 5! somehow I don't think a hierophant really cares about your pseudo deamon hood lol.

Exactly. But, within the canon of game, it would be if it's not immune to Fear. I haven't seen the profile so I'm not sure. It'd be rollling with a -30 as well, rather than the -20 that a PC would roll for Fear 4.

Exactly. But, within the canon of game, it would be if it's not immune to Fear. I haven't seen the profile so I'm not sure. It'd be rollling with a -30 as well, rather than the -20 that a PC would roll for Fear 4.

But are the biotitans and hierophants adversaries?

If you're hostile to them, or have Hatred (Xenos), or if you were wearing symbols or others colours signifing you were opposed to it, or if it was otherwise friendly but you were having a game of chess, then yes they would be an adversary.

Edit: But, it is Fearless, and therefore void from this topic. It's good to see there is a Fear 5 though.

However, a Pyrovore on the other hand whom itself is a Fear 2, Size 5 Tyranid, could potentially die from shock at seeing my mate Barry with the gammy eye (Fear 1 Minion).

so after talking it over with my group these are the guidelines that we are going to use for fear ( to be honest we tended to ignore it before)

1. pc's are not affected by another's pc's fear rating unless engaged in combat of some sort w/ each other. ( physical or social)

2. pc's are not affected by minions fear rating, for that matter things that affect willpower either, but that's another topic.

3. jaded makes you immune to fear1 or lower ( excluding unnatural sources), prevents shock on things that are higher.- this is to represent that while bob the jaded marine may not be scared of a rampaging pack of Pyrovore he still is going to be weary of fighting them.

4.having a fear rating does not reduce the amount of fear something else causes a pc or creature, however for every point of size difference the test is modified by 10 up or down as needed.

5. tyranids never suffer fear due to hive mind, if not in contact with hive mind then suffer as normal.

the main thinking behind this was that the players are used to each other and various minions so gain immunity to it, unless they are fighting w/ each other. think of it as when a small kid gets a large dog. he is scared whenever it barks at first, however in time he is no longer scared of the dogs bark and may find it comforting. yet would still be scared if the dog attacked him.

and the size difference is to represent the whole bigger is badder mentality. as I said before ( even if it wasn't fearless lol) a biotitan is not going to be scared of a pc that's less than a tenth of it's size no matter how scary his face is. on the other hand a grot would be even more terrified of said pc.

I hope these help

Haha, I'm proabably the wrong person to speak to about that; all my life I've had Severe Cynaphobia. Not nice!

If Jaded makes you immune to all source of non-warpy fear then it should make you immune to the Heirophant et.al. anyway.

I understand why you've made a load of those rules; for me, I try totreat PCs on the same level as DPCs and NPCs. I'm not keen on having one rule for one and one for the others. Mooks, yeah sure, they're designed to run away and die for silly reasons and act as general fillers for the butcher's bill; but DPCs, NPCs and PCs should all be singing from the same hymn sheet really. Having the house rule like the one above about game balancing allows you to give a lot more freedom to the players. What they percieve as a benefit to them is also the same benefit to the enemy.

The only real house rules we've made for Black Crusade are in the Pseudo-Daemonology guide I wrote:

http://apachetech.x10.mx/content/Pseudo-Daemonology.pdf

so after talking it over with my group these are the guidelines that we are going to use for fear ( to be honest we tended to ignore it before)

1. pc's are not affected by another's pc's fear rating unless engaged in combat of some sort w/ each other. ( physical or social)

2. pc's are not affected by minions fear rating, for that matter things that affect willpower either, but that's another topic.

3. jaded makes you immune to fear1 or lower ( excluding unnatural sources), prevents shock on things that are higher.- this is to represent that while bob the jaded marine may not be scared of a rampaging pack of Pyrovore he still is going to be weary of fighting them.

4.having a fear rating does not reduce the amount of fear something else causes a pc or creature, however for every point of size difference the test is modified by 10 up or down as needed.

5. tyranids never suffer fear due to hive mind, if not in contact with hive mind then suffer as normal.

1&2: If they're not adversaries (which allies generally aren't, because then they wouldn't be allies), fear doesn't apply. In other words, these two are moot.

3. Jaded makes you immune to all non-warp Fear, i.e. Fear 1-4 from "natural" sources. Tyranids = applies. Daemons = doesn't apply.

_{that's why I stated " unless engaged in combat w/ each other" which would make them adversaries right?}

_{I will admit that line should have been in #2 as well so that is my bad.}

_{As for jaded, my group and I all believe that it is to powerful for just a tier 1 talent. seriously, the way it's written your guy can be sitting in the path of a baneblade as the systems sun goes supernova and just shrugs his shoulders with a meh because they all count as "natural"}

_{as I said this is not so much a fear test at this point as the subconscious going" you may want to slow down a bit there bob"}

that's why I stated " unless engaged in combat w/ each other" which would make them adversaries right?

Yes, as would engaging in any competitive activity; i.e. drinking contest, chess match, driving/foot race, Legolas and Gimli style kill tally competition, etc.

I agree with the Jaded comments. The way the canon is worded, it makes it far too powerful. I think the Fear Trait is horribly written as well; hence the amiguity and need for house rules.

EDIT: The other house rule we play is for character generation. You role your stats then assign those stats to your characteristics, rather than rolling for characteristics in order, which imho is a fairly ridiculous way of genning a character for any game.

Kyle (Fear 4): I bet...

Dan (Fear 0): Shh, we're not allowed to be competitive remember, Kyle.

Kyle: Oh yeah, sorry.

[5 mins later]

Kyle: I bet I can be less competitive that you, Dan!

Dan: God fucking **** it Kyl... AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

wow I am really tired. the first time I read that I thought Kyle had challenged Dan to a p!#$ing contest. in which case I don't want to know what gave him fear 4 lol.

Daemonic "Fear" is not actually just fear; it is the presence of something That Should Not Be, sanity-destroying Cthulhuesque stuff.

It's not just because they're oooh! oooh! scaaaary!

Anyway being scary yourself does not make you immune to fear. Why should it?

Exactly. But, within the canon of game, it would be if it's not immune to Fear. I haven't seen the profile so I'm not sure. It'd be rollling with a -30 as well, rather than the -20 that a PC would roll for Fear 4.

Tyranids are immune to fear, I believe, across the board.

Wait -- aren't creatures with the Daemonic Trait as well?

Exactly. But, within the canon of game, it would be if it's not immune to Fear. I haven't seen the profile so I'm not sure. It'd be rollling with a -30 as well, rather than the -20 that a PC would roll for Fear 4.

Tyranids are immune to fear, I believe, across the board.

Wait -- aren't creatures with the Daemonic Trait as well?

Can't remember the specifics on tyranids and fearless, but the daemonic trait doesn't grant fearlessness. Daemons in general are fearless though whatwith From Beyond available and so on. Can't think of a daemon statup that's not immune to fear.

Daemonic "Fear" is not actually just fear; it is the presence of something That Should Not Be, sanity-destroying Cthulhuesque stuff.

It's not just because they're oooh! oooh! scaaaary!

Anyway being scary yourself does not make you immune to fear. Why should it?

I agree with you fully on the meta-mechanics of Fear. Unfortunately, the game mechanics do not represent that. Or fail to adequately state their representation of the meta-mechanics.

Daemonic "Fear" is not actually just fear; it is the presence of something That Should Not Be, sanity-destroying Cthulhuesque stuff.

It's not just because they're oooh! oooh! scaaaary!

Anyway being scary yourself does not make you immune to fear. Why should it?

I agree with you fully on the meta-mechanics of Fear. Unfortunately, the game mechanics do not represent that. Or fail to adequately state their representation of the meta-mechanics.

And that still has no bearing on what you're proposing regarding 'fear rating gives you fearlessness'.

That's not what I've propsed at all; far from it. Please re-read.

That's not what I've propsed at all; far from it. Please re-read.

Sure it is, though it was more poor choice of words on my part. Fear rating gives you fearlessness vs. natural stuff of equal or lesser fear rating than you possess (i.e. free semi-Jaded). I'll even quote what you proposed.

Yes; which is far from Fearlessness. And also, there's an added caveat for the GM. I don't really see anything wrong with the ruling.

I think the main problem is the range of the sliding scale, with the mechanics for Barry vs. a Pyrovore working the same for each. Barry is on the scale because he has a gammy eye and people say he acts a bit rapey; he's loyal, but gets angry if you don't file stuff away properly. We keep him around because he works well as a desk clerk and spymaster. The Pyrovore is on the scale, only one stage higher than Barry, because it's an enourmous fire-breathing, flesh-eating, acid-blooded alien that wants to wipe out humanity. Yet, when they face off, they both have to roll Fear against each other. Barry gets a -10 to the roll.

The Pyrovore at this point has a 65% chance of failing. If it fails, it has a 14.8% of being on -10 for the Encounter, a 7.4% of being on -20 for the Encounter and a 20.35% of being rendered useless for the rest of the fight, including a 3.7% chance of attacking itself for 1d5+1 rounds as well as being -20 to all actions for the rest of the Encounter. Barry, on the other hand, has exactly the same odds becuse of his higher Willpower but because he is Touched by the Fates, he can add 10 to his Fear check or reroll if he fails.

But also, you go on about adversaries and what it is to be on. Every encounter could be classed as an event, every PC, DPC and NPC can be classed as an adversary. An adversary is an enemy or opponent. In a game like Black Crusade, everyone is an enemy or opponent to some degree. You don't start out being friends with the universe and then labeling your enemies. Some characters may, but they don't last long. A player group isn't a fellowship of mates, it's a group of adversaries, united for a common cause. A PC should always have a game-plan to kill off all the other PCs; TPK during your own Apotheosis is the best possible way to go. Black Crusade is a game of Paranoia in the 41st millenium; with Chaos and the Chaos Gods playing the part of Friend Computer.

p.s. This, in no way, de-glorifies the great master, Friend Computer. Friend Computer is the one and only. Friend Computer is my friend. I am happy.

Pyrovore is a bad example sin ce, at least by Deathwatch rules, Tyranids are immune to fear.

EDIT: I looked at the book and I was wrong. That's kind of goofy.