Graver said:

Wasn't arguing or disagreeing w/ Santiago, just pointing out the established mechanic in case anyone found it useful.

I used GM terms and info b/c GM's are the ones that will be putting together stats for all NPCs including said daemons.

DocIII said:

Eep! Sorry! It just sounded to my eyes like you were saying that no NPC could have fate points unless the GM made sure to give them Touched by the Fates which seemed like a silly thing to assert. Providing a precedent for NPC's to have Fate Points is, however, not very silly at all and it was a touch silly of me to not see that was what you were doing.

Not ones used by my players, but they will soon be up against (2-3, maybe 4) NPCs with bullpup lasguns (possibly Roth-pattern Lightnings, maybe just vanilla lasguns) fitted with red-dots and aux. grenade launchers loaded with Inferno thermal grenades. Those bad guys will be led by an evil bruiser toting a compact assault cannon.

The party currently just has a few little pieces like a carnodon with an integral silencer, a couple of power-blades, a rather ornate bolt pistol and a customised hunting rifle (with a smartlinked sight in a monocle, linked via a wire through the recoil glove), although they have just sprung for the enitre party to have armour-plated stealth underwear.

Oh, and mono gives a finer, sharper edge than lathe (as mono has an edge one molecule thick, as opposed to the thickness of a sheet of paper). Lathe, however, would last longer with that edge. I'd agree that you couldn't have them stack- given that the description of lathe blades implies the limit of functional thickness is the paper-thin edge, at least

Alasseo said:

I'm hoping the quoted statement was meant to be satirical.

If not:

I'm pretty sure "paper thin" is meant to be a descriptive/metaphorical term to indicate extreme sharpness (Kind of like the phrase "hard as a coffin nail" to describe a very tough individual) and not be taken literally as any kind of technical measurement.

Especially since, given the variablility of paper thickness, a dull butter knife could be said to have a "paper thin" edge provided you are talking about a heavy enough grade of paper.

My Tech priest is currently armed with:

Ballistic mechadendrite (laspistol attack as a reaction)
Good-quality Powerfist
Guard shield
Two forearm-mounted, good-quality Sacristan bolt pistols with red-dot sights.

He has two-weappon wielder melee and ballistic, swift attack and blade master talents.

In ranged combat, he semi-autos his bolt pistols (d10+6, Pen 4) and fires his laspistol (d10+1) mechadendrite while using his shield for 6AP cover (3 attacks).

In close combat, he swings twice with his powerfist (2d10+6, Pen 8), rerolling one miss, fires his bolt pistol in his off-hand (d10+6, Pen 4) and uses his mechadendrite if he has a reaction left (d10+1) , or he uses the shield to parry at +15% (3-4 attacks).

It's just a shame the power armour he made on a looong space trip got blown up when he charged that clone army carrying 15 kilos of explosives... excellent-quality guard flak wil have to do for now (techh priests may not get paid much but the crafting rules more than make up for it).

xenobiotica said:

Hm. To me it sounded like a "perfect" encounter against a greater daemon. They thought they were toast. The excitement of the session is clear, as is the perception that there's no way they should have defeated the thing. Knife-edge excitement, and a skin-of-the-teeth success. Who cares about what canon says. To me that sounds like the GM did a fantastic job of running a kick-ass session. Perfect.

voidstate said:

Except at level one, you fought one of the strongest things in the universe. You literally have no where to go from there. That should have been a tough fight for high rank characters. Even with the equipment and rolls, those characters should have literally been killed by one or two demons, let alone multiple demons and a weakened greater demon.

Hell, thats a hard fight for space marines.

If I was playing that session I would think the GM was watching too much Bleach/DBZ or some other anime.

Varius said:

Or playing Exalted too much.

voidstate said:

You consider it a fantastic job of the GM since he let a bunch of 1st Rankers kill a greater daemon? Then you and I obviously have a serious difference of opinion on what makes a good GM...

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Or playing Exalted too much.

Pretty much

I understand wanting characters to feel heroic, but at first level that should be like saving puppies from burning trees, not saving the universe from gods.

After that, when one of them gets killed by a lucky roll from a random henchman, because at that level its more then possible, it throws the whole food chain out of whack. Henchmen with poor quality revolvers > Greater Demon with a demon army. In truth, you hit the climax of heroism too early, and now every fight will be compared to that one, every enemy that hits them will be apparently better then a greater demon.

That is an end of the campaign fight, not a level 1 random encounter.

To me it smacks of new young players, which isnt a bad thing, but they will have some growing up to do to create and participate in a deep and rewarding experience.

And I just realized this whole post has turned into a slight double entendre...

Although when the henchman offs one of the PC's with a crappy revolver they'll have the thought. "Holy Crap! That henchman was the ****! I don't want to fight his buddies. He's scarier than a Daemon!"

Varius said:

We managed to stop the "proper" Greater Daemon being summoned. It was a weak, immobile hentai beast, rather than a Keeper of Secrets. Still a Greater Daemon, just incredibly limited in its power

foxfax said:

Ok, but...

A deamonette wil give you a -30 on your fear test. The average level one MAY have 30-40 wisdom, meaning you have a 10% chance of actually succeding IF you had higher then average wisdom, which only starting psykers probably would. Meaning your group would probably all be useless from the fear. If you were lucky, most of you are at a -10 for the rest of the encounter.

THEN every turn you are in combat with them, you have to take a test (probably for each demon) now a willpower test at -20 because of the fear, or only do half actions.

ONE Demon can rip your level 1 team apart with little help. Multiple, with backup, and a greater demon (Probably a fear rating of 3-4 again, and giving you a -10 on your fear check at least, meaning you cant succeed), should have never even been scratched. Even with fudged rolls.

XP from killing enemies to that point (12 hour marathon beginners test game with already-designed characters): 450.

XP from good RP: 650

XP from taking the p*** with random film/book/TV quotes and references: 70

XP from trying to make cool action sequences rather than efficient ones: 65

Original XP spent in character customisation: 400

Total XP up until the Greater Daemon: 1635

Level: 3

WS: 44 (1 level), BS 39 (1 level), S 54 (I found some Power Armour), T 39, Ag 47 (two levels), Int 33, Per 40 (re-roll FTW!!!), WP 43 (started with natural 40, got the +3 WP Divination), Fel 30

Advancements include Basic Wapons (Bolt), Jaded and Chem Use (for the drugs I created to make the party less fearful). Yes, drugs. How else do you think we were able to take on nasty stuff like that?

foxfax said:

I guess you just arent going to get it.

Power armor? That early? Bolt weapons? At level one? Even level 3! Even with all those, a DM should rip you apart in a session that held 1/10th of the things you describe. You know you only get one dodge test a turn right? How were you healing between fights? Every tic of damage should add up to a bunch of dead characters.

Ok, Ill try to make you see. You know, when you go and watch a movie, and you are sitting there thinking "How could anyone make a movie this bad? They must really have no clue how to make a proper movie?" That is pretty much what people have been trying to convey to you. It was a poorly run game, where the GM must have made VERY poor decisions. While your group is thinking you all made a great movie, the rest of us sit here and think "How could you do that and really think its good?"

DocIII said:

I'll admit, when I first read your response, I was slightly offended, and thinking- 'No that was perfectly straight and not intended to be satirical at all'.
I was getting ready to write off a blistering reply which would have probably been very scathing and insulting, but I decided to do the sensible thing: stop, re-read it and ask myself why it made me angry. After the second read, however, I realised you were completely right- it does sound very silly read straight. Indeed, it seemed to be a case of:

That said, there was an apparently perfectly serious conversation upthread about which was a thinner, sharper edge, and they were leaning in favour of lathe. I was making a (late) response to that.
Even if the phrase 'paper thin' was being used in a purely metaphorical fashion, I would be extremely surprised if they could get an edge as thin as a single molecule with the harder, denser alloy that the Lathe-worlds are capable of producing (and that the upgrade represents). I'm certain they couldn't get an edge sharper. I do, however, think that a lathe-blade would probably keep its edge far better, as I said.

I'm sorry my first instinct was to try and start a flame war with another member of the forums, as we've all been pretty **** decent people so far.

Foxfax, I'm sorry but could you stick to one story? Ever since we didn't all fall on our knees over your party's killing a Greater deamon and whatever else it was, you've said more and more, hoping to make us see sense, but in all honesty, you're digging a deeper pit for yourself. Sorry, but that's what I'm thinking at the mo.

Also, on topic, my noble assassin uses a hunting rifle, which has the accurate quality, I bought a red dot sight for it, so If I take the aim half action, will I get +30BS to hit? Because if I do, I think that's pretty awesome

dont forget to add short range bonus too, if you are withing 75 meters.

So they all stack? Sweeet

If I was in Forfax game and I witnessed the events that transpired I probably would have shaken my head in disbelief and not had a good time, that said if the players involved had a good time, then in my book that means the GM did a good job. People have different standards and perceptions of how things work, end of the day we all have different goals and motives for what we want to achieve with our RP, so live and let live please.

Also on weapons, I allways had a soft spot for two lovely good quality Orthlak Mark IV pistols, with laser sights and loaded with man stopper bullets, makes combat a bit expensive but worth the investment.

More a Wish List as my players wait on the "Inquisition hand book" so we can start our Real campaign (We only have the Core Book ATM)

The Arbiter wants a "Mono" Shock Maul, so she can have a Poormans Power Maul (Explaining the AP Bonous as a low grade Power Feild), she also wants a Fire Selector on a Combat Shotgun, pointing out it's only a matter of time before other Rounds are added apart from Shot and Inferno (Slug, Manstoper, Bolt from Necromunda, Execusioner from the WD articale and psibaly gas from RT [1987 ed]) and a Mono Combat Accessory and Red Dot Sight.

The Assasian wants (Retractable) Mono Combat Accessories on her Carapace Vambraces (since I wount allow her to mount Retractable Mono Power Blades on them).

I really like the idea of incorporating the weapons into the style of the character. My Arbitrator character (fast tracking to Inquisitor according to GM) was just given a Rossarius. This gave him excellent ranged defence, and with his 50 ballistic skill will make him quite a challenge at range. However, he had no real defence against close combat opponents. So he commisioned a Lathe Long Saber, which gives the +10 to weapon skill and a +20 to weapon skill for parrying. He only has 38 weapon skill normally, but has gained Hatred talents for pretty much everything you could name over the course of the game. The result is a calm headed crack shot character, who fuels his melee combat with his undying hatred for the enemies of man.

Alasseo said:

I think it would be hard for a lathe blade's edge to last longer than mono, since mono weapons, and I quote: "never lose their edge." =)

And I've got a question for you: two knives, one is a mono, the other is a lathe blade, there is no other difference between them. Which one is actually sharper? Before you decide, consider the following: a knife has no penetration to start with, it's pretty clear from the mono upgrade that it's used to make the knife sharper, from this process it gains +2 to penetration. A knife with a lathe blade gains +3 to penetration, so why would it have a thicker edge than a mono knife if it cuts better? A harder, denser alloy would allow for a thinner blade. A mono upgrade simple sharpens the existing metal into a "superfine edge". I don't know if it says that a mono edge is just one molecule thick in any of the GWs books but I have at least never read it in any of the RPG books.

According to the various articles on the Spyrers of Necromunda (specifically the Jakara), a mono-sword has an edge one molecule thick, which it maintains by constantly shedding small particles from the blade. Technically then, it does lose its' edge, but is constantly renewing it...

A harder, denser allow would allow for a thinner blade because such a blade can better stand the stresses it will be put under. In terms of ease of manufacture, a lighter, softer metal can be more easily used for such work, but the blade won't be as strong and resilient.

And in answer to your question, the mono-knife is still sharper, but the blade isn't heavy enough to get the full benefit of that edge, hence why the lathe knife has a better Pen

Now put a Multi-Angluar Cutter edege or a low output Power Feild lathe knife, same Game Effect diffrent Fluff.