Ok, so the game is tomorrow (time flies, eh?) and I think I have one last question: The Destiny Dice.

How can this feature NOT be abused by Power Gamers?

From what I've read, the initiator of an action has to decide whether or not he/she is going to spend a Destiny Die. After that, the the one receiving the action (whether its a PC, NPC, event, etc.) can respond with a Destiny Die.

This is where I can see a power gamer abuse the hell out of this: IF the Initiator doesn't use a die, and the receiver does, the initiator cannot add a die in response.

What this means is that if there is a fairly even pool of Light or Dark Side dice, the ENTIRE SESSION could be the GM using a Dark Side Point to get a Red Die, and the players immediately flippin' that Dark Side Point have to Light Side to add a Yellow Dice. Heck, even if the players have at least ONE Light Side Point they can do this every time!

If they have 0, and the GM uses a Dark Side to throw in a Red Die, can the players immediately use that point that was just generated? If so, they can use Destiny Dice with every roll.

Repeat, over and over and OVER.

Is this about right? Anyway, someone PLEASE explain the Destiny Dice better please.

I guess for me this would honesty come down to me asking the players why they felt they needed to do that every single turn. This is a narrative system, but more than that it's a cooperative narrative system. If there's a problem or concern, I would just ask my players what's up. If honest and open communication is not an option for some people, maybe this isn't the system for that group. I also can't imagine a group, even of power gamers, sustaining constant Destiny Point usage. If the gm gets wrapped up in the antics, it becomes a game of one-upsmanship. Let them burn off their points and then ration them back, not in a condescending way but so that the fun and narrative is healthy and balanced. So what if they start strong each session? It balances out in the end.

Of course the easiest way to slow done this type of 'abuse' is to slow down the spending of Dark Side destined points, don't hoard, but make the players realise that these are a resource that the GM controls. This should get them into the habit of only spending them on important rolls, as that is what they are for, as well as the other uses of course.

Except that's not true.

To a player, the roll to jump across from one speeder to another in mid flight is an important, awesome moment. They are going to want to spend a Destiny Point on that. The GM has zero reason to make that harder and spend his own Destiny Point, except to be antagonistic.

To the GM, the early roll of a powerful enemy is a good time to spend a Destiny Point, when he's not too in danger of killing anyone with it. The PCs don't have as much reason to use a Point then, because they aren't on the ropes, but it still gives the Nemesis or Adversary some sting.

You can come at things from two different angles and still be interacting. Are there going to be times when both sides want to use them? Yeah. But most of the time that shouldn't be the case.

You and I are going to have to just agree to disagree on what good gamemastering is.

This isn't an armchair, theory-craft argument for me. This is something that came up in play.

My group was at the final fight of the beginner's box, and the GM started spending DPs to up the tension. The first time he did that, the targeted player didn't want to get hit, so he spent a DP as well. It registered to us that after all was said and done, nothing had changed DP-wise. On a PC attack, they spent a DP to take the baddie out, and the GM spent one to counter (to keep the PCs from wiping the floor with this guy).

I remember the look on everyone's faces that second time. This wasn't an abuse of the system or a desire to cheat the spirit of the rules. We were trying to make big moves in the big end fight. What more appropriate time to bust out the DPs? It didn't sit right with us. If everyone uses the system as intended, then no one gets a bonus and no resource gets used up. That feels wrong.

When I told my party that when I start our EotE game next month, that I'm house-ruling Destiny Point usage, it was universally supported.

So people on the forums can demonize players and blame it all on them, but as more people actually sit down and play the game, the more this is going to come up. It's telling that this is the second thread addressing it.

Except that's not true.

To a player, the roll to jump across from one speeder to another in mid flight is an important, awesome moment. They are going to want to spend a Destiny Point on that. The GM has zero reason to make that harder and spend his own Destiny Point, except to be antagonistic.

To the GM, the early roll of a powerful enemy is a good time to spend a Destiny Point, when he's not too in danger of killing anyone with it. The PCs don't have as much reason to use a Point then, because they aren't on the ropes, but it still gives the Nemesis or Adversary some sting.

You can come at things from two different angles and still be interacting. Are there going to be times when both sides want to use them? Yeah. But most of the time that shouldn't be the case.

You and I are going to have to just agree to disagree on what good gamemastering is.

This isn't an armchair, theory-craft argument for me. This is something that came up in play.

My group was at the final fight of the beginner's box, and the GM started spending DPs to up the tension. The first time he did that, the targeted player didn't want to get hit, so he spent a DP as well. It registered to us that after all was said and done, nothing had changed DP-wise. On a PC attack, they spent a DP to take the baddie out, and the GM spent one to counter (to keep the PCs from wiping the floor with this guy).

I remember the look on everyone's faces that second time. This wasn't an abuse of the system or a desire to cheat the spirit of the rules. We were trying to make big moves in the big end fight. What more appropriate time to bust out the DPs? It didn't sit right with us. If everyone uses the system as intended, then no one gets a bonus and no resource gets used up. That feels wrong.

When I told my party that when I start our EotE game next month, that I'm house-ruling Destiny Point usage, it was universally supported.

So people on the forums can demonize players and blame it all on them, but as more people actually sit down and play the game, the more this is going to come up. It's telling that this is the second thread addressing it.

I've been playing since the beta. I understand how the points work. This isn't "armchair GMing" for me either.

In a situation where both sides are willing to spend Destiny Points, there is still an effect--it isn't a "nothing happened, nothing changed" scenario, and if you think it is, then you don't totally grasp what's going on.

The GM scoring a Despair is waaaay more threatening than a PC landing a Triumph. A Triumph will usually result in a crit or something like that. For a GM? He just got the perfect excuse to jab the PCs in any number of ways, usually far grander than the single extra Success you were actually aiming to land.

Obviously, if you're following a pre-written adventure, that is less of a thing, but its still a factor when you're talking about the mechanic overall.

Also, the GM thinking he needed to buff the TIEs at the end of the beginner book is a bit crazy, as those guys are vicious and will blow the PCs out of the sky if they land a single decent hit. Him spending a point there was basically trying to kill the PCs and forced them to spend a point in return.

The GM had no such requirement to spend a point when the PCs did own their own attack, as if the fight was too easy, you just bring in another group of TIEs to give them a bit more roughing up before they get out, if that's the message he wants to relay.

The good guys spend Destiny to escape from the Death Star and to then blow it up. The bad guys spend Destiny to find Hoth and do all of the rest of Episode V. Then the good guys have it all in their hands for much of Episode VI.

The problem is that it is all reset at the beginning of a session, so as the session winds down, everyone will throw Destiny into everything since it doesn't carry over to the next session anyway.

The difference between a fight with both sides using DP and neither using DP is the difference between two amazingly powerful pilots in a dogfight, and two mediocre ones. In not a fan of both sides using DP either, that's really on the GM to deal with. World of darkness has the same issue with Willpower where combats become everyone spending willpower as fast as possible on both sides. That system has a cap, of course, but it's definitely up to the gm to set the tone and expectation. I don't really see a way to fix this, because a house rule to cap DP use is going to make the players rush to use DP before the gm can do it.

I guess I really don't see this as much of a problem. It seems annoying to me that it's potentially a revolving door of upgrades, of course, but my table definitely aren't the type to use that. DP to us are a much more occasional use thing. I guess in this case it comes down to the way it was intended, and the ways I can be broken. Here's a breaking point for the system. How your group chooses to react to it (by backing off and honoring a limit, it sounds like) defines the nature of your table. Well done.

Right now, with everyone's characters fairly low-powered, there's not much to use Destiny Points for other than upgrading dice pools. As people pick up more and more talents (or start to use more and more Force powers), Destiny Points will be used for more than that. The Force user will need to use his Force power *right now* and spends a destiny point to use the Dark Side pips. The Mechanic will use a Destiny Point to pull out some macguffin device from his utility belt to help save the group's collective hindside. Et cetera and so on and so forth.

It may come to the point where the players have no light-side destiny points to spend for a time. And it may come a time where the GM has no dark-side points to spend.

Here's what I'm going to do.

You want to use Destiny? You had best have a cool descriptive and narrative reason as to why and how you are increasing your check, or for finding a random plot device, etc. I won't use Destiny unless I find the same, so it is only fair!

There are a few easy fixes. The one I'm going with is to only allow 1 DP die upgrade per roll from either side. I'll give the active player/NPC first choice and then if they don't, then the other side can raise the stakes. Problem solved.

That's exactly how the rules work. You just solved a nonexistent problem.

No, currently the active player and the defender can both spend DP. The rules explicitly allow this.

My suggestion is to only allow one or another, not both. So, if you spend a DP to bump up your blaster attack, then the defense can't.

Im going to use, or at least test, destiny points in a different way. Going to keep the narrative purpose of the DP cause i think its handy for my players to make the story more intresting. But then i wont use the flip at all, i am the GM and if i feel that the players or my important NPCs are about to die where i dont want them to die or fail where i dont want em to fail, i "cheat". Further i will let my player have a fixed roll at the start of every session so they have around 3 DPs per session which will let them take one of their dices and put it on whatever symbol they want (i guess a triumph) or rerolled a horrible check, which will make them do something extrodinary when they feel that THIS is the time to be a real hero. And after the session, i will grant 1 xp for every saved DP, so that they feel that they dont want to use their destiny points way to easily.

Im going to use, or at least test, destiny points in a different way. Going to keep the narrative purpose of the DP cause i think its handy for my players to make the story more intresting. But then i wont use the flip at all, i am the GM and if i feel that the players or my important NPCs are about to die where i dont want them to die or fail where i dont want em to fail, i "cheat". Further i will let my player have a fixed roll at the start of every session so they have around 3 DPs per session which will let them take one of their dices and put it on whatever symbol they want (i guess a triumph) or rerolled a horrible check, which will make them do something extrodinary when they feel that THIS is the time to be a real hero. And after the session, i will grant 1 xp for every saved DP, so that they feel that they dont want to use their destiny points way to easily.

And yes i kill my players. But i kill em out of stupidity or in the epic climax-fights. For example when my group ventured down in Altdorf (WFRP) sewers and came up with the "spendid" idea to split up and search the sewers singel-handed to save time. And i dont have problems with power-gamers at all, it means that the player is focused and really intrested in his character and in the story we´re trying to create. I rather have 4 out of 4 power-gamers in my group than 1 lazy laid-back "i write my background until next session i "promise"" any day a week

It was evident to me that this was going to be a very serious problem from the start. Thus, I made the following change, and it has worked out nicely: Destiny Points refresh for use after the encounter (instead of action) they are used.

The change in dynamic should be obvious: players are more likely spend their precious DPs to activate abilities, use dark side points, etc, and not just beef every die roll with the expectation that the GM is going to counter it immediately. Additionally, furiously returning DPs becomes one less thing the GM needs to worry about -- he can return them by occasionally beefing-up an enemy roll or however without worrying about it overly much.

Honestly, the DP mechanic is the weakest part of an otherwise amazing system. It’s a narrative point element, common among more modern games, but there’s no narrative limit to the GM – fiat is allowed and encouraged, so the GM really doesn’t need dark side points, he just need to flip them over to ensure that players have DPs to use. In other games which such “hero point” mechanics, a GM might dole one out when he needs to have an important villain escape or if he’s invoking some Aspect of the PC in a complicating matter. Those elements, when it seems like the GM is being deliberately frustrating, are also good times to turn-over DPs for the players to use.

I’m still not sold on it and might puzzle-out some alternative in the future with a few more games under my belt.

House rules are certainly fine. I suspect that I'd go with the more flip-for-flip for my group, simply because I think it will encourage some creativity in encounters, not just about dice rolls. I think the harder part of this is using Dark Side points for the GM, because we are so used to simply being able to use the "because I said so" tool that GM's are certainly able to use. Instead, there's now a tool at GM's disposal where its built right into the game system. I'd be using the dark side points to make encounters more interesting, rather than rolls. For example, the players are embroiled in a high speed chase, a dark side point represents a sudden last minute obstacle flying at them at high speed. If in a combat encounter, it could be a falling shelf, or something that the makes the encounter a bit more dynamic. If anything I'd avoid dark side points to alter dice rolls almost altogether...

In my first session almost 2 weeks ago (we play every 2 weeks) the players rolled the destiny points for the evening and came up with 7 Light and 1 Dark. My view was that I would only use the Dark point(s) if the NPC could get an advantage to an action from threats or despair created by the rolls of the players. This way it would not appear that I was attempting to steer the story one way or the other or make any one encounter more challenging if the players were doing well.

The downside was that the players were rolling very well most of the evening and did not want to use the Destiny points at all. They didn't want the points to sway into my favor for fear that I could then use them against them.

Ok, so the game is tomorrow (time flies, eh?) and I think I have one last question: The Destiny Dice.

How can this feature NOT be abused by Power Gamers?

From what I've read, the initiator of an action has to decide whether or not he/she is going to spend a Destiny Die. After that, the the one receiving the action (whether its a PC, NPC, event, etc.) can respond with a Destiny Die.

This is where I can see a power gamer abuse the hell out of this: IF the Initiator doesn't use a die, and the receiver does, the initiator cannot add a die in response.

What this means is that if there is a fairly even pool of Light or Dark Side dice, the ENTIRE SESSION could be the GM using a Dark Side Point to get a Red Die, and the players immediately flippin' that Dark Side Point have to Light Side to add a Yellow Dice. Heck, even if the players have at least ONE Light Side Point they can do this every time!

If they have 0, and the GM uses a Dark Side to throw in a Red Die, can the players immediately use that point that was just generated? If so, they can use Destiny Dice with every roll.

Repeat, over and over and OVER.

Is this about right? Anyway, someone PLEASE explain the Destiny Dice better please.

Many have stated this previously, but I will relist the relevant points below:

On P.27~28 A player may only spend one destiny point per action, the GM may only spend one point per action.

The tokens are flipped after the action is completed, so no the players CANNOT immediately convert it.

The person who initiated has first call on if they are going to use a point, then the defender can.

Given the system design, the PC's will most often be initiating rolls, not the GM. That puts the burden of responsibility on them usually. Besides, you assign the difficulty yourself, so upgrade those checks as much as you need to to make it appropriate.

Also, don't forget the Adversary Talent. While not in the beginner game, the BBEG just gets a certain ammount of upgrades on his checks. You design the "monsters" and on P.395 and 397 the Shipjacker and Twilek Black marketer have Adversary 1 even though they are Rivals. Nothing saying you couldn't put the same ability on an eliete unit of Storm troopers or some other minion level encounter and at higher numbers. No ti an effort to "kill" them, but trying to "game" the Destiny mechanic is kind of like saying that you beat the GM. I've never seen a GM's hitpoints/woulds/health levels, so i'm not sure how you can "beat" them.

As previously stated, the core book does have some suggestions for how to handle PC's hoarding DP. I'd reccommend reading that through. I tend to stay away from house rules as there are more than enough in the book to learn.

I've personally played a variety of systems and was mostly under the impression that RPG's were about cooperative storytelling, not competition. As for power-gamers, well it really depends on their actions and attitudes. I've got no problem with my players (i'm the GM) making the most effective use of their mechanics, but I can always win that fight. But, for our group at least, "winning" isn't really the point. Having fun and telling a good story are.

I'd trry talking to them out of game about the uses of dp and show them examples. emphasize the ability to edit a scene, and in your descriptions, leave gaps where they will "need" to use dp to fill in needed material, such as at a hangar having fuel available for awesome Des and Thr rolls. Or just shutting down landing clamps and/or wiping a ships navicomputer can seriously set back a party.

For me and my personal style and motivations for gaming, well I'm not the kind to indulge in "power gaming". I've got other games to play and other players willing to sit at the table.