Yea, we can come up with all sorts of rationalizations like the one you stated, which works well, but we really need a explicit ruling on whether or not we can increase the Force Rating, and then we can use options like yours to create a supporting history, if needed, to work with the DM.

That explicit ruling is in the books. Force rating is a talent, and there are only two ways to purchase it. Once each. Thus a max of 2.

Anything else is a house rule.

If anything, Force Rating is not a talent since it is not listed in a talent tree or the talent section. It is a Rating - a rating of your level of force attunement,

The rules as far as anyone has been able to point out does not specifically state that you can or cannot raise your Force Rating, which is the underlying question in this thread.

Like I said with my first post. I just assumed the Force Rating was a characteristic and you could raise it as such, since its definition and relation to defining a character seems to fit a characteristic, but other have put forth evidence that tends to suggest otherwise, which, after looking at it, I agree with.

Holy crap! It is listed as a talent! Good catch.

I never noticed that. That pretty much clears that up. =)

If it helps, look at the table showing what each level of Force represents (Padawan, Young Jedi, etc) to see that anything above Force 2 would actually represent formal training in the Force. Since EotE assumes that you haven't got any such training, 2 is the logical maximum.

Do you have a reference page for that force table?

Thanks for the rules based slap-down!

The table was in the Beta book page 176 but seems to have been omitted in the Core Book.

The table was in the Beta book page 176 but seems to have been omitted in the Core Book.

It isnt really needed in the EotE core book. I am sure it will resurface in the Jedi book.

The table was in the Beta book page 176 but seems to have been omitted in the Core Book.

Thanks! I was beginning to wonder if I had imagined it, as I couldn't find it now that I was looking for it.

Here's the table for those who may not have access to the beta book:

As you can see, anything 3 and up represents being an actual Jedi Knight (or Sith), which to me at least represents formal training beyond what you can do by yourself, regardless of your potential. Luke started with a low Force Rating as well, and built it up through the course of his adventures.

One consideration I definitely plan to institute is the "learning penalty" associated with EotE' theme and era. By this, 3 is intended to represent at least a Knight.

If my groups' budding Jedi Exile is self-teaching Force abilities and self-learning aspects of the Force that would allow him to expand, I'm likely to assess a penalty of HALF experience spent towards that advancement to simulate the destruction of the Jedi Order and difficulty of learning the ways of the Force within the OT environment, generallyEmpire, ding all the problems which may manifest.

This helps toe the line against power creep that allows higher Force Level characters render everyone else obsolete.

I have no problem allowing higher Force Levels, but it will be painful.

If I further need to regulate the power vs XP burn rate, I can introduce additional elements for or against. As loot for an epic adventure/campaign, I can see granting a holocron with a teacher that negates or reduces my penalty for a fixed or limited time (one Force Power level, one new Force Skill, etc.)

And of course when enough XP has been soaked out, allow him to find (and/or kill if necessary) a teacher, or declare the character sufficient "mastery" (I.e. check that the other characters are keeping sufficient pace) that likewise negates my penalty under less limited terms.

I'm completely down with the idea that at this time, Jedi are rare, powerful, and have a hell of a difficult life.

I'm inclined to keep tight regulation of the rp aspects of playing a Force-user. The second a Force-user is known to the Empire their lives will be different. Secrecy, Force-use, and or light saber use are life-threatening, existential issues to the Jedi.

A higher XP cost is not out of the question.

I am also somewhat inclined to introduce a lot more temptation to use the Dark Side, with all the potential risks that entails. Power corrupts and without a teacher to guide you, a character would be more prone to tap the Dark Side.

How about:

If an untrained Jedi level force user fails to roll enough Light Side points to utilize a power, BUT rolls more Dark Side points than their rank in Discipline or Cool, they must use those points to fuel the power, slipping one step further down the path to the Dark Side. The temptation is too strong. The ends justify the means. So on, and so on.

Fair warning, I haven't yet read through the section on The Force, so I am just spitballing here. Plus I love the risk in WFRP magic use, so this is something similar.

A higher XP cost is not out of the question.

I am also somewhat inclined to introduce a lot more temptation to use the Dark Side, with all the potential risks that entails. Power corrupts and without a teacher to guide you, a character would be more prone to tap the Dark Side.

How about:

If an untrained Jedi level force user fails to roll enough Light Side points to utilize a power, BUT rolls more Dark Side points than their rank in Discipline or Cool, they must use those points to fuel the power, slipping one step further down the path to the Dark Side. The temptation is too strong. The ends justify the means. So on, and so on.

Fair warning, I haven't yet read through the section on The Force, so I am just spitballing here. Plus I love the risk in WFRP magic use, so this is something similar.

There is already a temptation to tap into the Dark Side--there are more faces with dark pips than light pips, so a Force Exile throwing 1 or 2 dice is going to have to use those pips eventually, which costs a Destiny Point and thus increases the Dark Side pool, and thus more chances for Despair.

There is already a temptation to tap into the Dark Side--there are more faces with dark pips than light pips, so a Force Exile throwing 1 or 2 dice is going to have to use those pips eventually, which costs a Destiny Point and thus increases the Dark Side pool, and thus more chances for Despair.

I was just offering a possible solution to people who weren't happy with what we have.

Trying to house rule a game where you haven't read the rules or played it is typically a bad idea, regardless of how pure and noble the intentions were.

Trying to house rule a game where you haven't read the rules or played it is typically a bad idea, regardless of how pure and noble the intentions were.

I've skimmed over everything. Plus sometimes my best ideas happen when un tainted by the work of others.

Alternatively, if you're looking to go beyond Force Rating 2 and the GM is amenable to house-rule material, I've put together a "Ways of the Force" supplement for EotE that adds three new Force-Sensitive specializations (Dark Side Acolyte, Force Mystic, and Jedi Initiate), each with the Force Rating talent. While I do caution GMs to not let players go beyond Force Rating 3 at this point in the overall game's life cycle, it would be possible to attain a Force Rating of 5 if the GM permitted a player to take every single F/S spec.

I've actually got an updated version with a few extra goodies that I'll be posting very shortly...

Edit: It's up. Updated the thread, or you can just clink on the link in my signature to go straight to my blog for the link.

I'd be so tempted, if someone was being whiny about Force Rating, to say okay, and then just drop Vader on them during the first adventure. "Vader lands, you all die."

I'd be so tempted, if someone was being whiny about Force Rating, to say okay, and then just drop Vader on them during the first adventure. "Vader lands, you all die."

Have Vader show up and recruit them...

Have Vader show up and recruit them...

But remember, when the player (inevitably) refuses Vader's overtures, he's Adversary 4, with a Force Rating of 5, the full Move tree, a Lightsaber, and backup in the form of Stormtroopers with automatic weapons.

Have Vader show up and recruit them...

But remember, when the player (inevitably) refuses Vader's overtures, he's Adversary 4, with a Force Rating of 5, the full Move tree, a Lightsaber, and backup in the form of Stormtroopers with automatic weapons.

He's a Skywalker. He's a 7. Maybe a 6 after Mustafar.

I once read an interview by Lucas where he said Anakin had the potential to be twice as powerful as Palps but after Mustafar he could only reach 40% of his potential. So if Palps is a 6 FR then Anakin could have been a 12 and but was a 5 during this time period. If Palps is a 7 then Vader would be a 5 or 6 now.

This is assuming that FR is linear measure of a Jedi/Sith's potential.

I'd be so tempted, if someone was being whiny about Force Rating, to say okay, and then just drop Vader on them during the first adventure. "Vader lands, you all die."

That's the kind of **** that gets a GM kicked out of his own game. Try it and you'll probably regret it, at least if you have players with strong personalities and assertiveness.

I drawn the middle line between these two extremes. Agree that dropping Vader on them: "You all die" does not make for a fun experience.

I'm more thinking that wanton or willful negligence regarding keeping their secret, public displays of Force/lightsaber use (and remember the Empire has a public surveillance apparatus that makes this administration squeal with glee), and the like are sure to draw the increasing eye of the Empire. If they're beating up thugs way out in BFT ("butt-flipping Tatooine"), then unless there's a reason why the local Imperials would intervene, most likely they can remain hidden for at least a while. If they're doing a run and gun from one air taxi to the next right down town Imperial Center, then certainly that calls for appropriate action. As this Jedi Exile gains in power, the threat -- and seriousness of his situation -- should likewise grow.

Use it as an avenue for increased roleplaying, rather than a hammer. If players are just being stupid, whipping it out for any ol'e fight, then give them some hints for a few adventures. And THEN drop Vader on them. But even then, why a need for insta-kill.

What goes with Jedi better than peanut butter to jelley? Mortal, life-altering injuries. Think our Jedi Exile's Power Level 3 (or higher) is too high for their own good, then Vader-ize them.

It was a joke! It was a play off of "Rocks fall. You all die."

Yeesh.

It was a joke! It was a play off of "Rocks fall. You all die."

Yeesh.

hahah. I've played in that D&D module. Lost several party members due to sudden onset of rocks.

I'd be so tempted, if someone was being whiny about Force Rating, to say okay, and then just drop Vader on them during the first adventure. "Vader lands, you all die."

That's the kind of **** that gets a GM kicked out of his own game. Try it and you'll probably regret it, at least if you have players with strong personalities and assertiveness.

PINK FROSTING!!!!

(Obscure I know, but I hope there are a few KODT fans here.)