Question: What if, if you choose(unconsciously) to STEALTH a character with a IMMUNE TO CHARACTER ABILITY ability,

is your chance to STEALTH is lost? You cannot anymore choose other character to bypass a STEALTH?

I mean, IMMUNE TO CHARACTER ABILITY is an ABILITY right? so i presume that STEALTH was blocked..

Keywords are not abilities:

As such, you can freely stealth a character that is immune to character abilities.

Is this correct? Keywords are:

"Immune to Character Abilities"

"Ambush, Intimidate, Vengeful, Vigilant, Stalwart"

"Stealth"

"House ______ Only"

"Setup"

"Limited"

"*Trait/House characters only"

After that line is the "Text box"?

You're on the right track, though House X only is more of a deckbuilding restriction (as it has no effect on the game outside of that) and Trait/House characters only is a play restriction. For a complete list of the Keywords, see pages 20 and 21 of the core rulebook, and add Joust and Melee to that list.

There is currently some debate going on on another website. Someone from cardgamedb says he e-mailed someone from FFG and they are saying this.

"Immune is a keyword, but the following text of that keyword is considered modifying game text, in short you could not select Jaqen H'ghar to be immune to anything. As to what keywords can be chosen, only those that appear on a printed legal card in the LCG is a possible choice."

It is unclear as to what this actually means. Some people are of the opinion that the only Keyword that Immunity has is Immune. Others think that this just means that you have to give Jaqen a printed Immunity. To be honest, i'd personally like it if someone like ktom came in and actually clarified this.

If that ruling is accurately reported from an official source, it would mean that you cannot give Jaqen any version of "No attachments except X", but could give him "No Attachments" (a keyword). You could not give him "Immune TO x", but you could give him "Immune" (which wouldn't be very useful).

The alternative explanation "you can't select him to be immune to "anything"" is stretching things a bit more than a little, and the following sentence specifically refers to keywords (not to modifying game text), so has no bearing on the first sentence.

There is currently some debate going on on another website. Someone from cardgamedb says he e-mailed someone from FFG and they are saying this.

"Immune is a keyword, but the following text of that keyword is considered modifying game text, in short you could not select Jaqen H'ghar to be immune to anything. As to what keywords can be chosen, only those that appear on a printed legal card in the LCG is a possible choice."

It is unclear as to what this actually means. Some people are of the opinion that the only Keyword that Immunity has is Immune. Others think that this just means that you have to give Jaqen a printed Immunity. To be honest, i'd personally like it if someone like ktom came in and actually clarified this.

This just means "you can't make up keywords". Immune to flibbidy-bloo-blazzle isn't a valid keyword as it doesn't currently exist in the game (and wouldn't be valid due to the "no immunities" part). You must pick a valid, already existing keyword. This limits you to the set of keywords that is currently printed on cards within the valid card pool. I find the "you can't give him an immunity" absurd, but if it's what they want, it's what they get.

If that ruling is accurately reported from an official source, it would mean that you cannot give Jaqen any version of "No attachments except X", but could give him "No Attachments" (a keyword). You could not give him "Immune TO x", but you could give him "Immune" (which wouldn't be very useful).

The alternative explanation "you can't select him to be immune to "anything"" is stretching things a bit more than a little, and the following sentence specifically refers to keywords (not to modifying game text), so has no bearing on the first sentence.

Its someone from cardgamedb who says they e-mailed ffg asking about it. Thats the response they say they got back from them. We have asked for the e-mail itself but the guy hasn't been around lately. I'm just trying to get some clarification.

Yeah, one of my meta mates is arguing that the phrase "can't be immune to anything" is just FFG saying that you can't give him the Keyword "Immune to anything". When i read it, i read it as you can't give him a single Immunity period end of story. So, thats pretty much why i figured i'd post it here since this thread follows the theme of this ruling and maybe we can actually get some official input on it.

There is currently some debate going on on another website. Someone from cardgamedb says he e-mailed someone from FFG and they are saying this.

"Immune is a keyword, but the following text of that keyword is considered modifying game text, in short you could not select Jaqen H'ghar to be immune to anything. As to what keywords can be chosen, only those that appear on a printed legal card in the LCG is a possible choice."

It is unclear as to what this actually means. Some people are of the opinion that the only Keyword that Immunity has is Immune. Others think that this just means that you have to give Jaqen a printed Immunity. To be honest, i'd personally like it if someone like ktom came in and actually clarified this.

This just means "you can't make up keywords". Immune to flibbidy-bloo-blazzle isn't a valid keyword as it doesn't currently exist in the game (and wouldn't be valid due to the "no immunities" part). You must pick a valid, already existing keyword. This limits you to the set of keywords that is currently printed on cards within the valid card pool. I find the "you can't give him an immunity" absurd, but if it's what they want, it's what they get.

Yeah, the valid Keyword thing has been talked about already and clarified. The problem is that Immunity isn't well defined in the rule book, so it makes it tough to figure out what they want to be a Keyword when your looking at a Immunity.

"Immune is a keyword, but the following text of that keyword is considered modifying game text, in short you could not select Jaqen H'ghar to be immune to anything. As to what keywords can be chosen, only those that appear on a printed legal card in the LCG is a possible choice."

It is unclear as to what this actually means. Some people are of the opinion that the only Keyword that Immunity has is Immune. Others think that this just means that you have to give Jaqen a printed Immunity. To be honest, i'd personally like it if someone like ktom came in and actually clarified this.

That's what I think. You can give Jaqen "Immune to non- Raven cards" or "No Condition attachements" because they are printed on legal LCG cards. You might even be allowed to give him "Immune to card effects", which does appear on a card (Burning Sword), not directly as a keyword, but as text gained from an ability.

"Immune is a keyword, but the following text of that keyword is considered modifying game text, in short you could not select Jaqen H'ghar to be immune to anything. As to what keywords can be chosen, only those that appear on a printed legal card in the LCG is a possible choice."

It is unclear as to what this actually means. Some people are of the opinion that the only Keyword that Immunity has is Immune. Others think that this just means that you have to give Jaqen a printed Immunity. To be honest, i'd personally like it if someone like ktom came in and actually clarified this.

That's what I think. You can give Jaqen "Immune to non- Raven cards" or "No Condition attachements" because they are printed on legal LCG cards. You might even be allowed to give him "Immune to card effects", which does appear on a card (Burning Sword), not directly as a keyword, but as text gained from an ability.

If that is the case, why was the phrase that to x is considered Modifying game text? If that was the case, that phrase wasn't needed in the response from FFG because it has no importance. I feel like that phrase alone tells us that they really want Jaqen to have no immunities at all.

Because without any immunity, he's both expensive and fragile, so barely usable. Remember, we're talking about a 5-cost 3-strength Ally . Gaining immunity will be expensive, but would at least give him some protection.

Because without any immunity, he's both expensive and fragile, so barely usable. Remember, we're talking about a 5-cost 3-strength Ally . Gaining immunity will be expensive, but would at least give him some protection.

That's a case of wishful interpretation of designer intent, not interpretation of the supposedly official/verbatim wording from the developers.

On the original question: Stealth is a keyword. Keywords are not considered character abilities by definition (as quoted by J_Roel). Therefore "Immune to character abilities" does not make a character immune to stealth. You would need "immune to keywords" or "immune to card effects" in order to be immune to stealth.

On the "what can Jaqen gain" question: The proper interpretation of that e-mail is "no modifying text with Jaqen's ability." Keywords can be gained with Jaqen's ability by name ONLY, no modifications. -Istrail's observation that "No attachments" is allowed, but "No attachments except Weapon" cannot. His observation that, since immunity ALWAYS requires modifying text, Jaqen's ability is not going to give you any practical form, is also correct.

While that is my personal interpretation, I have also run it by Nate, and it is confirmed.

That's definitely the way the email read, although not so eloquently explained. It's a shame, but I suppose it'll keep his power level down, which probably means, in turn, that he won't be run in very many builds.

With new FAQ, we know that immunities can't be swapped with Deceit (ARotD) or copied with Banner Bearer (THoBaW) ,but what about "No attachments except X"?can I swap or copy "No attachments except X" with Deceit or Banner Bearer?

I'm not sure how you getting that Deceit and Banner Bearer will not deal with immunities?

The "no qualification text" clarification for Jaqen would not be applied in situations where you are referencing a keyword that already exists/is printed on a card. That would include any existing and accompanying modification/qualification text. So why can't immunities be swapped with Deceit or copied with Banner Bearer?

I'm not sure how you getting that Deceit and Banner Bearer will not deal with immunities?

The "no qualification text" clarification for Jaqen would not be applied in situations where you are referencing a keyword that already exists/is printed on a card. That would include any existing and accompanying modification/qualification text. So why can't immunities be swapped with Deceit or copied with Banner Bearer?

Oh man I really wish they didn't rule Jaqen this way. It's confusing and setting an assumed precedent that doesn't seem to exist for keyword gaining cards.

So you are saying that a keyword that functions with qualified text can be gained/swapped with Deceit and Banner Bearer? I don't really understand how that is different than Jaqen gaining a similar keyword.

Examples to help shed some light on the question:

Jaqen cannot be given "Immune to X" or "No attachments except X" with his ability(explained in the FAQ).

Deceit can steal keywords. Deceit can steal "Immune to X" and "No attachments except X"?

Banner Bearer can copy keywords. Banner Bearer can copy "Immune to X" and "No attachments except X"?

Jaqen H'ghar

Any Phase: Discard 1 power from your house to give Jaqen H'ghar a keyword of your choice, until the end of the phase.

Deceit

Challenges: Choose 2 characters controlled by 2 different players. Until the end of the phase, the character of your choice loses all keywords and the other characters gains each of those lost keywords.

Banner Bearer

Challenges: Kneel Banner Bearer to choose a Knight or Lord character you control. Attached character gains all keywords the chosen character has until the end of the phase.

Is the difference between Jaqen and each of these 2 other effects that you don't have the printed/gained text readily available to be gained by Jaqen when the other effects require it? Does that mean Jaqen can gain a keyword with qualified text as long as it is currently available in play?

Sorry ktom, I'm just trying to make heads or tails because the reason the assumption that Deceit and Banner Bearer wouldn't work is because it can be seen as a precedent set by Jaqen H'ghar.

With Jaqen, you pick the keyword itself, so no qualifications can be added. With the others, you pick a source for your keywords, so any qualifications found on the source will be included.

Make sense?

The difference is that Jaqen is gaining a generic keyword with reference to nothing, but Deceit and Banner Bearer are giving the second character the specific keywords found on the first character. Jaqen has no point of reference defined in his ability acting as the source of his keywords, so you can only choose keywords "by name" (so to speak). But Deceit and Banner Bearer DO have specific points of reference defining the keywords to be gained, so any qualifications on those keyword from the point of reference will be transferred along with the gained keyword.

Said another way, with Deceit, the second character is gaining exactly what the first character lost - which includes any qualifying text. So did the first character lose "immunity" or did it lose "immune to character abilities"? With Banner Bearer, the second character is gaining exactly what the Lord or Knight has - which includes any qualifying text. So does the chosen Knight have "no attachments" or "no attachments except weapon"?

See the difference?

With Jaqen, you pick the keyword itself, so no qualifications can be added. With the others, you pick a source for your keywords, so any qualifications found on the source will be included.

Make sense?

The difference is that Jaqen is gaining a generic keyword with reference to nothing, but Deceit and Banner Bearer are giving the second character the specific keywords found on the first character. Jaqen has no point of reference defined in his ability acting as the source of his keywords, so you can only choose keywords "by name" (so to speak). But Deceit and Banner Bearer DO have specific points of reference defining the keywords to be gained, so any qualifications on those keyword from the point of reference will be transferred along with the gained keyword.

Said another way, with Deceit, the second character is gaining exactly what the first character lost - which includes any qualifying text. So did the first character lose "immunity" or did it lose "immune to character abilities"? With Banner Bearer, the second character is gaining exactly what the Lord or Knight has - which includes any qualifying text. So does the chosen Knight have "no attachments" or "no attachments except weapon"?

See the difference?

I totally see the difference. I think I made heads and tails of it with one of my final comments, so thanks for helping me understand it even more. :-)

~And welcome back again.

Yeah, you were almost there. The only thing that had me concerned was that you tried to "back fill" and apply the Deceit/Banner Bearer "reference keyword" difference to Jaqen when you said "Does that mean Jaqen can gain a keyword with qualified text as long as it is currently available in play?" Jaqen never looks at other cards, so it never matters what else is in play.

Since the situations are completely different (gaining keywords from nothing as opposed to gaining keywords from a reference card), the "limitations" on what can be gained are different. I think people are trying to over-apply the Jaqen ruling to all "gains keywords" situations, when it really is a pretty narrow ruling.

With Jaqen, you pick the keyword itself, so no qualifications can be added. With the others, you pick a source for your keywords, so any qualifications found on the source will be included.

Make sense?

The difference is that Jaqen is gaining a generic keyword with reference to nothing, but Deceit and Banner Bearer are giving the second character the specific keywords found on the first character. Jaqen has no point of reference defined in his ability acting as the source of his keywords, so you can only choose keywords "by name" (so to speak). But Deceit and Banner Bearer DO have specific points of reference defining the keywords to be gained, so any qualifications on those keyword from the point of reference will be transferred along with the gained keyword.

Said another way, with Deceit, the second character is gaining exactly what the first character lost - which includes any qualifying text. So did the first character lose "immunity" or did it lose "immune to character abilities"? With Banner Bearer, the second character is gaining exactly what the Lord or Knight has - which includes any qualifying text. So does the chosen Knight have "no attachments" or "no attachments except weapon"?

See the difference?

How are you coming up with the difference between Jaqen and Banner Bearer? The cards' text doesn't exactly give hints as to them being meaningfully different.

Jaqen - "Any Phase: Discard 1 power from your House to give Jaqen H'ghar a keyword of your choice until the end of the phase."

Banner Bearer - "Challenges: Kneel Banner Bearer to choose a Knight or Lord character you control. Attached character gains all keywords the chosen character has until the end of the phase."

If Jaqen gives only unqualified keywords, then so does Banner Bearer.

I really don't know how to say it any more clearly, but I guess I'll try.

- Jaqen says "choose any keyword you can think of; give it to Jaqen." The FAQ says you cannot include qualifying text in the keyword you can think of.

- Banner Bearer says "look at card #1; give the keywords you found on card #1 to card #2." How does Jaqen's rule stop you from taking the qualifying text from card #1 and putting it on card #2? Qualified keywords are still keywords, aren't they?

I really don't know how to say it any more clearly, but I guess I'll try.

- Jaqen says "choose any keyword you can think of; give it to Jaqen." The FAQ says you cannot include qualifying text in the keyword you can think of.

- Banner Bearer says "look at card #1; give the keywords you found on card #1 to card #2." How does Jaqen's rule stop you from taking the qualifying text from card #1 and putting it on card #2? Qualified keywords are still keywords, aren't they?

I would argue that we are all considering Qualified Keywords are a different keyword then unqualified keywords. I don't really think that qualified keywords are any different then unqualified. Just because they have a to x doesn't really make them a new keyword. It doesn't make to x part of the keyword. By the e-mail i posted earlier, the to x is simply modifying game text in all cases. It doesn't become a keyword simply because it is stating what a card can be immune to.

I mean, if this was confirmed the be the way that nate/damon wants it to work out, then i'd leave it that. However, i think people are reading way to deep into the Qualified keywords thing and trying to make it into a second set of keywords that only happens when it is already on the card. I just don't see how anyone could reason out that it is a keyword when it is printed on the card but when you try to name something it isn't a keyword. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I mean, i see your reasoning on what you are talking about on the other page but i still don't think its right that you would get the qualifying text of the keyword in addition to the keyword itself. Banner Bearer and deceit both say to just take the keywords. They do not say to take the Keywords and the attached text of the keywords. Just doesn't seem right to me. However, i like to argue, so this is just me trying to argue a different point of view really. I could care less to tell the truth. XD

Take immunity for example. "Immunity" as a keyword on a card isn't enough to tell you what to do because it carries a variable component - namely, what the keyword grants immunity to. Without defining the variable component to immunity, they keyword doesn't function. The only other keyword in the game with a potential variable component is "No attachments," because it can appear with variable "except" limitations. ("No attachments" is different from "Immunity," though, in that it carries the understanding that if there is no "except" variable defined, it defaults to "any attachments" while "immune to X" does not carry any kind of inherent default for the X).

All the Jaqen rule says is that if a keyword has a variable part (as in "keyword to/except X"), you are not allowed to choose an X when the effect simply says "gains a keyword of your choice."

That entry doesn't stop cards from gaining any variable keyword component when it gains keywords; it just stops the player from choosing them arbitrarily. If the variable components are set by some other source - like the "gains" effect itself or a reference to another card - there is no reason the variable component cannot be gained along with the keyword itself.

Ok, not trying to be obtuse here, but after running an search in the FAQ for any entry with the word "keyword" I don't see any entries that mention gaining or copying them in a similar context to the the Jaqen entry other than that same Jaqen entry. In the Core Set Rulebook we see that the keyword entry is headed "Immunity" which would lead one to believe that "Immunity" by itself is the keyword. Next, however, "immunity keywords" are defined in that paragraph as "immune to character abilities," "immune to events," and "immune to triggered effects." The wording in this paragraph leads to me believe that at the time, those entire phrases were treated as keywords.

Now, however, we have a new entry that introduces the terms "qualified keywords" and "unqualified keywords" to the AGOT lexicon. After a search of the term "keyword" in the FAQ, I don't find any other entries that otherwise reference gaining or copying in the manner discussed in light of the Jaqen entry. Unfortunately, the new entry clarifies that these "qualified keywords" (which variations on immunity now seem to be) cannot be gained by Jaqen. I can really only see this a few ways.

1. This entry clarifies how gained keywords operate in that only the base keyword can be gained, which would jive with the assumption from the rulebook that "Immunity" is the keyword, which does nothing without additional text. This would let Deceit copy the keyword itself, thus allowing a character to gain "Immunity" but not the additional text as that text is not a keyword. That is qualifier text which appears to be something new and separate.

2. The entry clarifies how gained keywords operate but the further reading of the Core Rulebook paragraph that appears to term "immune to events" et al, as keyword entities in their entirety is still correct, thus allowing Deceit to work as we've all assumed, but not jiving with the Jaqen entry. This would lead me to believe that the Jaqen entry should have been an errata to the wording of Jaqen's ability itself in order to specify that difference.

3. Sadly, this option just doesn't jive for me. That would be the explanation that the wording on Jaqen's ability can be used to gain keywords only and not qualifier text, while Deceit can be used to gain keywords and qualifier text. Nothing in Deceit's wording specifies that it copies qualifier text, only the keyword. If the "Immunity" is the keyword, then that's the only thing the wording of Deceit supports copying, even if convention says otherwise.

While I'm willing to believe that FFG wants Jaqen to work per the entry and other cards to stay as we've played by convention, it really looks to me like further errata to Jaqen saying that his ability reads "Any Phase: Discard 1 power
from your House to give Jaqen H'ghar an unqualified keyword of your choice until the end of the phase." Which makes it very clear that only his ability is affected or there should be an FAQ entry that clarifies that copy effects also copy qualifier text, or Deceit and Bannerbearer need an entry to specify that they gain that qualifier text.