First of all, I should note that I have never been a DM/GM before so this game was my very first experience in doing so.

Moving on, I wanted to get an opinion on how this situation would work out. I thought from reading the rules I would have a good idea but a friend that I played with, who has played many more RPGs than I have, felt it resolved differently. Here is the situation, which is actually from the Beginner's scenario "Escape from Mos Shuuta":

Lowrick the Wookie wants to grab a bot

Lowrick the Wookie wants to throw the bot at Trex the Trandoshan

So, with just these 2 lines of info, this is how we resolved it, according to my friend:

Initiative is rolled first for everyone

Trex is first in Initiative

Lowrick is second (excluding all other figures for the time being)

Lowrick can then complete his check by picking up and throwing the bot to knock Trex down

Personally, this didn't sound right to me, but I was over-ruled by my friend (yes, the GM was over-ruled. Like I said, I am a beginner and she is considered the expert because she has played many more RPGs than I have). So my question is: Is this how it should have been resolved? Shouldn't the option to grab the enemy start the initiative check, then she would be able to actually do the grab? Wouldn't the throw be a separate action, meaning that as soon as the action started that Trex would be able to run away? I know this is for the beginner game, but I figured that the rules for this type of scenario would still translate into the Core game as well.

If I am wrong about this then I would need some help understanding how this situation would resolve according to the rulebook. I have looked at the combat sections in both books and just can't see it playing out this way, so I am asking for some assistance. I really want to try my hand ad GM with this game but want to make sure I understand what I am doing and making sure I am doing it right.

I haven't played a game yet (I will this weekend) but it seems to me like that is two different actions. I equate grabbing, approaching, shooting, punching and similar activities as an action. Subsequently, throwing something is also an action. The rules expressly state that a player may only have one action on their turn. Neither of these moments seem like maneuvers to me. The character is actively "attacking" an NPC - even if the goal is to merely grapple with him.

An alternative way is that, in round one, Lowrick attacks and, if enough advantages or a triumph are rolled, Lowrick has gotten a solid grip on the droid. If it survives the turn, he can chuck it at Trex NEXT turn.

Either way, in my mind, a throw and a grab, when speaking about an NPC in a combat situation, are both separate actions.

Agree, in that it would take two Actions, and thus two separate turns... provided the robot is still functional.

When running Shadows of a Black Sun for some friends, the guy playing Trey'essek snatched the defunct droid pilot from the driver's seat of the speeder and tried to hurl it at the Black Sun goons chasing after the party. Since the droid was out of commission, I let him scoop up the droid as a maneuver and then throw it as his action. Player rolled a Despair, so in the excitement the strap on his slugthrower rifle got tangled up with the droid...

Now in the OP's example, the RAW would require the Wookiee to spend an Action on his turn to make a Brawl check to effectively grab the droid, and then a second Action on his next turn to make an Ranged (Heavy) check to throw it at Trex. Again, this assumes the droid is operational and not a bunch of blasted scrap at that point.

However, don't discount the "Rule of Cool" and "Rule of Fun," as those are far more important to the group enjoying themselves than "Rules as Written."

Personally, had I been the GM, if the player rolled a Triumph on that Brawl check to grab the droid, I would have let him use that Triumph to hurl the droid at Trex to knock the Trandoshan prone, but with no damage dealt to Trex. Would it be 100% legal in the rules? Nope, but it's both cool and fun.

Maneuver is used to interact with your gear. A fully functional droid is not gear, nor is it an item, but an intelligent creature. Grapple as an action, throw as an action, two turns.

Personally, if combat hadn't started yet (as pointed out by initiative not being rolled), I'd have let the Wookie grab the droid outside of combat (still having to make a Brawl roll though) and that action would have then triggered the Initiative roll vs Trex's Vigilance. Then Lowrick would have been able to throw the droid on his first round of combat.

I'd play it like that because 1) Its cooler, and 2) I've always been a fan of the first act of aggression triggering combat, rather than the other way around.

Having Trex potentially attack first, when Lowrick hasn't actually reached for the droid yet, just seems silly. This is a Han shot first thing, to me--Lowrick made the decision to grab the droid first, so that should be how it plays out. As soon as Trex sees Lowrick go for the droid, then he can react, but not before. Exception would be against a Force User with active Sense.

Personally, if combat hadn't started yet (as pointed out by initiative not being rolled), I'd have let the Wookie grab the droid outside of combat (still having to make a Brawl roll though) and that action would have then triggered the Initiative roll vs Trex's Vigilance. Then Lowrick would have been able to throw the droid on his first round of combat.

I'd play it like that because 1) Its cooler, and 2) I've always been a fan of the first act of aggression triggering combat, rather than the other way around.

Having Trex potentially attack first, when Lowrick hasn't actually reached for the droid yet, just seems silly. This is a Han shot first thing, to me--Lowrick made the decision to grab the droid first, so that should be how it plays out. As soon as Trex sees Lowrick go for the droid, then he can react, but not before. Exception would be against a Force User with active Sense.

I like that. With the potential to smooth talk your way past Trex, there's no gaurantee that he starts aggressivly. Maybe he's just waiting to see what you'll do. At the same time, because its an aggressive act, it could be argued that as soon as Lowrick says his action will be to grab the droid, the group would roll Initiative. Its sketchy, but that makes this game great - play it how you want and watch hilarity ensue!

Personally, if combat hadn't started yet (as pointed out by initiative not being rolled), I'd have let the Wookie grab the droid outside of combat (still having to make a Brawl roll though) and that action would have then triggered the Initiative roll vs Trex's Vigilance. Then Lowrick would have been able to throw the droid on his first round of combat.

I'd play it like that because 1) Its cooler, and 2) I've always been a fan of the first act of aggression triggering combat, rather than the other way around.

Having Trex potentially attack first, when Lowrick hasn't actually reached for the droid yet, just seems silly. This is a Han shot first thing, to me--Lowrick made the decision to grab the droid first, so that should be how it plays out. As soon as Trex sees Lowrick go for the droid, then he can react, but not before. Exception would be against a Force User with active Sense.

I agree with this for the most part. I've never enjoyed DM's who punish players for wanting to do cool stuff, or lawyer hard book rules for why "it wouldn't go down that way." Just letting the player do this isn't going to break the game - only good things can happen as a result.

Alternatively, if the rules have some sort of a "surprise attack round" feature, you could treat this sort of thing like a surprise attack between only Lowrick and the Droid. The other players and Trex have nothing to do with this, because Lowrick first needs to pick up the droid. They would only react after he does whatever it is he is going to do.

After the surprise attack between Lowrick and the Droid, then have all players and NPC's roll standard initiative.

In either event - picking up the Droid is one standard action (it is an attack/grapple.) Throwing the droid as a weapon against Trex is actually somewhat more complicated, even though it is still one standard action.

See... the Droid isn't a weapon, and merely picking it up isn't making it malfunction. When Lowrick makes a check to throw the Droid, he should make the check against the Droid - not Trex. If the attack/throw against the Droid is successful, Trex would then have to make a reflex or perception check of some kind to see if he is able to avoid the falling Droid. If he fails this check... he would then take damage, and so would the Droid. The Droid may or may not be able to continue the fight afterwards, depending on how much damage it took.

It just depends on how technical and deep you want to make this.

I went to the May 4th event at the FFG game center, and got to sit in on a number of talks given by designers Jay Little, Sam Stewart, and Kat Ostander. In regard to the action, Jay Little talked a bit about how they length of time an action takes is never defined in terms of seconds on purpose. His personal definition of an action in this game is "it is long enough for you to do one cool thing". With that as a guiding star, the grab and throw could really be one action. Assuming they are already at engaged range.

However.

I would say that the grab attack itself would be what initiated combat as a surprise attack, requiring a vigilance check. I would allow this to sort of be a free attack, assuming the guy getting grabbed didnt succeed in a vigilance check, if he did, then I might increase the difficulty. It'd almost certainly be a brawl check to pick the guy up, and then an athletics or brawl check maybe to actually throw him.

This isn't a game that is supposed to have rules that handcuff the GM or slow things down. It is kept relatively streamlined on purpose. The first ruling you come up with, the simplest one, that allows players to attempt the cool things they come up with, is what you should go with. The idea of the design behind this game is that the GM is encouraged to say "yes" to basically any and every idea the players have for their turn. There might be unintended consequences, which the threat and despairs can bring into play, and as the GM, it is just your job to decide how many purples and reds they have to face, based on how likely it is that something is going to go wrong based on what htey are trying to do.

I actually think the exact opposite from a lot of the posters here.

I believe that it should only require one action, with the assumption that the initial grab has NO in-game effect other than as part of the throw. While there are a lot of systems that break down unarmed combat in the way that the others describe, the cinematic style of gaming easily lends to single maneuvers with a single effect. Heck, for flavor fluff, you could say that the Wookie wall walks around the trandoshan, does a bunch of stylistic arm movements, and then attempts to throw him. It is all the same to the dice and the effect of the game.

As to the Initiative roll, yes it is required in this game as there are no surprise rounds to speak of. It is included as the vigilance roll that the trandoshan gets to notice the wookie starting to grab him. If the wookie was doing it from a hidden location, or with some other benefit I would give those blue dice as bonuses.

I think it all depends on if the thrown object/subject is resisting the attempt at being thrown, but perhaps let sufficient number of advantages or triumph(s) let the throw happen straight away? I'd also say it depends on the adversary type - I'd perhaps let this be done to a minion without requiring two actions, but a rival or nemesis: perhaps not, no.

First, the wookie declares he's going to grab the droid.

Then everyone rolls for initiative.

Now, Trex wasn't expecting the wookie to do that, so it's a surprise round.

The wookie grabs the droid during his surprise turn, Trex can't do anything.

Now combat starts normally, with everyone going on their turn following initiative order.

First, the wookie declares he's going to grab the droid.

Then everyone rolls for initiative.

Now, Trex wasn't expecting the wookie to do that, so it's a surprise round.

The wookie grabs the droid during his surprise turn, Trex can't do anything.

Now combat starts normally, with everyone going on their turn following initiative order.

Isn't that why a vigilance roll is used for initiative?

First, the wookie declares he's going to grab the droid.

Then everyone rolls for initiative.

Now, Trex wasn't expecting the wookie to do that, so it's a surprise round.

The wookie grabs the droid during his surprise turn, Trex can't do anything.

Now combat starts normally, with everyone going on their turn following initiative order.

Isn't that why a vigilance roll is used for initiative?

The way I understand, vigilance is used when you're surprised, but you're still, you know, surprised. You can't be surprised at something before it happens, so it wouldn't make sense for Trex to act before the wookie acted.

Personally, if combat hadn't started yet (as pointed out by initiative not being rolled), I'd have let the Wookie grab the droid outside of combat (still having to make a Brawl roll though) and that action would have then triggered the Initiative roll vs Trex's Vigilance. Then Lowrick would have been able to throw the droid on his first round of combat.

I'd play it like that because 1) Its cooler, and 2) I've always been a fan of the first act of aggression triggering combat, rather than the other way around.

Having Trex potentially attack first, when Lowrick hasn't actually reached for the droid yet, just seems silly. This is a Han shot first thing, to me--Lowrick made the decision to grab the droid first, so that should be how it plays out. As soon as Trex sees Lowrick go for the droid, then he can react, but not before. Exception would be against a Force User with active Sense.

I'm with this one...if combat hasn't started yet, and you're just parlaying with Trex, and Lowrrick decides to get the jump be reaching for the nearest security droid, I'd say he can do that first (with Brawl, or whatever check you see fit), then initiative, then if Trex won the initiative he has a chance to react to the grapple (most likely by drawing a weapon and whatever other action), then on Lowrrick's turn he throws the droid.

Narratively speaking, if a wookie reached out, grabbed a droid, picked it up over his head...that is probably enough time for a bounty hunter to draw his weapon and open fire, before the droid hits him. I can't imagine a scenario where Trex can act before the Wookiee acted, if Trex acting was dependent on the wookie taking an action.

Essentially, if Trex isn't going to do anything until the player made a sudden move, then that sudden move would have to be first, in my mind. The grab. Then, if Trex's vigilance (initiative) roll is good enough, he notices the grab and his split-second reaction allows him to take an action before the droid is thrown with another action by the wookie. That's how it makes most sense to me.

First off, I want to thank you all for your replies. I really like how this community can come together when it comes to answering questions without berating or putting down anyone. And for that, I applaud all of you.

Following that, please keep in mind that this is the first time that I have ever DM/GM'd a game before. The book never spoke of suprise rounds so this idea never came to me. It is something for me to think of in the future.

Leading off of that, the reason I put Trex first is because, for initiative, his specific vigiliance roll beat out all other characters, not to mention the fact that the beginnger book says that he is supposed to run when the action starts. So instead of him attacking, I simply used his 2 manuevers to run instead of him attacking at all.

Don't get me wrong, I am not one to play against the players. I do want them to win, but at the same time I don't want things to be a walk in the park for them. In fact they started actually losing that battle, so I used a rule from the Core book to finish off the battle by having them each do a final check to get in the ship and get away. I don't want to lawyer the rules, but at the same time I want to make sure that I am playing the game right, especially since this was our session for this game (and, once again, my very first time as a DM/GM). I want the game to be fun for everyone, but would this be a case of simply letting the players run too much of the game? Yes, the rules are there as a guideline, but what is the stop the players from simply using parkuor to run past every enemy while shooting them all in the leg so they can't get to them (keeping in mind that the GM lost power by allowing the players to break the rules for more of a fun game experience)?

Maybe this is just me looking at it from a "first time" standpoint though. I will take what was said and simply let it be. Thank you all again for your responses.

1) There is no such as a surprise round per RAW - this concept is a carry over from other games. Still it could be applied here too, but could be considered a house-rule; or a narrative decision, whatever floats your boat

2) I'd perhaps allow it as a surprise round, but then I'd require an opposed deception or skullduggery (or some such skill) check from the Wookiee, against the Trandoshan's Vigilance (or Perception whatever seems the most fitting to you) to notice such a potential threatening move. If successful, roll initiative and the Wookiee starts by holding the droid ready for throwing, fail - roll initiative and the Wookiee's first action is grabbing the droid.

First, the wookie declares he's going to grab the droid.

Then everyone rolls for initiative.

Now, Trex wasn't expecting the wookie to do that, so it's a surprise round.

The wookie grabs the droid during his surprise turn, Trex can't do anything.

Now combat starts normally, with everyone going on their turn following initiative order.

Isn't that why a vigilance roll is used for initiative?

The way I understand, vigilance is used when you're surprised, but you're still, you know, surprised. You can't be surprised at something before it happens, so it wouldn't make sense for Trex to act before the wookie acted.

I agree, I would allow the grab to occur before anyone gets to have combat actions, then roll initiative and see where it goes from there and Lothwik (sp?) could throw the droid at his initiative, whatever that panned out to be. I might hand out a bonus die to Lothwik when he rolls initiative (since he did something no one expected) and when he performs the check to grab the droid (since the droid wasnt prepared to resist the grapple at that moment).

On a related note, its really great how much interpretation this system has. As a GM you have a LOT of leeway to influence how things go (good or bad) and make it fun. Almost any interpretations listed here would have worked to some degree, I just think this is the most fun way to do it.

When the Wookiee went I grad the droid I would make it a vigilance vs cool initiative check. If Trexwins initiative then maybe the Wookiee telegraphed his move and Trex is able to act before the Wookiee gets ahold of the droid. If the Wookiee won with a triumph then I would give him a free action.

Next time your player tries to overrule you, just say, "this isn't a d20 system, so let's try it this way see what happens"

First off, I want to thank you all for your replies. I really like how this community can come together when it comes to answering questions without berating or putting down anyone. And for that, I applaud all of you.

Following that, please keep in mind that this is the first time that I have ever DM/GM'd a game before. The book never spoke of suprise rounds so this idea never came to me. It is something for me to think of in the future.

Leading off of that, the reason I put Trex first is because, for initiative, his specific vigiliance roll beat out all other characters, not to mention the fact that the beginnger book says that he is supposed to run when the action starts. So instead of him attacking, I simply used his 2 manuevers to run instead of him attacking at all.

Don't get me wrong, I am not one to play against the players. I do want them to win, but at the same time I don't want things to be a walk in the park for them. In fact they started actually losing that battle, so I used a rule from the Core book to finish off the battle by having them each do a final check to get in the ship and get away. I don't want to lawyer the rules, but at the same time I want to make sure that I am playing the game right, especially since this was our session for this game (and, once again, my very first time as a DM/GM). I want the game to be fun for everyone, but would this be a case of simply letting the players run too much of the game? Yes, the rules are there as a guideline, but what is the stop the players from simply using parkuor to run past every enemy while shooting them all in the leg so they can't get to them (keeping in mind that the GM lost power by allowing the players to break the rules for more of a fun game experience)?

Maybe this is just me looking at it from a "first time" standpoint though. I will take what was said and simply let it be. Thank you all again for your responses.

Pro tip from an experienced DM:

"Half the time... I'm just making stuff up as I go."

I didn't mean to imply you were lawyering the rules That was just an arbitrary statement I was saying to the guy I was replying to.

Anyway, "surprise attack rounds" are something that are generally found in other systems. And if not... then they are just house-ruled options that give the players and the DM a frame of reference of how stuff is going to go down, before stuff gets going. One of the most exciting things for a player to do in a game is roll some dice for a chance to make their opportunities happen just the way they envision them. This is just one of those situations where there are no clear rules on a particular issue... so you have to just take it slow and think about what makes sense.

As far as letting the players just do whatever - I agree. You want them to have a challenge. The point isn't to just toss them candy every time they do something. The point is to give them a helping hand when they want to do something really, really cool.

When a guy says, "Hey, I want to hit the other guy over the head with the butt of my gun." or "I want to jump over this puddle of lava." Well... that doesn't sound very cool. In fact, it sounds kind of mundane. Make them play that out normally.

But, when a player says something like, "I want to drive up on my speeder, belt of thermal detonators primed and ready to explode in 4 seconds, do a power skid up to the edge of the ravine, jump off at the last second before the detonators quake the existence around them and plummet to the ground with a firey blast behind me, flying after Princess Heartthrob that Darth Blowhard just tossed over." - "Oh, well how will you stop yourself from falling, assuming you catch up to her?" - "I don't know... but she is the love of my life, and all I know is I have to save her." <--- See that? That's awesome! This dude is going to need help on his rolls, and will probably need help surviving the fall. Reward players that do this stuff, because these opportunities don't come up all the time