Of course Gallandro, one wonders how truthful Palpatine was being ... but more importantly, George Lucas has stated (for instance on the dvd commentary) that Anakin truly was the chosen one, and that even when he became Darth Vader, he remained the chosen one. It was by destroying the Emperor and himself that he fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance to the Force.

This doesn't necessarily mean that what Palpatine said was a lie, but it is important to remember that the prophecy was not a sham.

It's also worth noting that Anakin being born of a virgin is in keeping with many classic mythological stories in which the hero is indeed born of a virgin.

True, however in the shooting script for ROTS, it was spelled out quite clearly that Palpatine had orchestrated Anakin's creation and does a "Luke, I am your father." on Anakin, but that was ditched during shooting.

Yancy

I didn't know that! Very interesting.

But "bringing balance to the Force" actually means triumph of the Light over the Dark Side.

...

Anecdotally (is this a word?), if the Force is a person, then the Dark Side is a sickness, and the Light Side is good health. So bringing balance to this person would mean getting rid of the sickness. And that's what Anakin did at the end of Return of the Jedi.

I like it, makes sense to me. It does cause problems for the post-E6 EU though: if Anakin really was the Chosen One to bring balance (i.e.: triumph of the Light), then all the cloned-Emperor garbage, and maybe (hopefully) the Vong garbage becomes impossible. I hope E7-9 destroys those parts of the EU.

It causes MASSIVE problems with the post-E6 EU, you are correct.

I think this is because the Thrawn Trilogy, which basically kicked off the post-E6 Expanded Universe, was written before the prequels had been made, and thus before the "Chosen One" idea was communicated on-screen.

I never liked how the Expanded Universe tended to greatly diminish Anakin's victory and fulfillment of the prophecy. I've even read official source books which suggest that maybe he was something of a "false prophet", or that the prophecy was a lie, and so forth.

It is for this reason that I have always avoided material set after Return of the Jedi. I always felt like if you have Sith and stuff after that period, you take away from what Luke and Anakin did.

Having said that, it will be extremely interesting to see how this is treated or addressed, if at all, in Episodes VII-IX. I guess it never says that "the chosen one shall bring balance, which shall last forever ." Things can get screwed up again I suppose.

I disagree, Chris, about what bringing balance to the Force means.

This is another area that George Lucas has shed some light, although I can't remember now where I heard/read him say it.

I don't think it's a case of balancing the Light Side with the Dark Side. I've heard that argument before, and it's one I used to have.

But "bringing balance to the Force" actually means triumph of the Light over the Dark Side.

Lucas said that the Dark Side was like a disease that took from the Force without giving back, while the Light Side was selfless. I'm paraphrasing, but basically there was a biological analogy made.

Anecdotally (is this a word?), if the Force is a person, then the Dark Side is a sickness, and the Light Side is good health. So bringing balance to this person would mean getting rid of the sickness. And that's what Anakin did at the end of Return of the Jedi.

I like this way of thinking, because it means that Anakin's fall was a true moral failing, and that his redemption was a true moral victory, and not some cosmic game of checks and balances.

The other aspect of all this which I really do like (whether you subscribe to your idea or my interpretation), is that there was one aspect of his fall which did bring about his redemption, and that was love. Although forbidden to marry and have children, it was the love of his son that saved him in the end, and thereby the galaxy. And I also love, for all the criticisms of the prequels, that Padme's last words were "there is good in him", to be echoed by Luke many years later. Despite the understandable doubts of Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda, Luke didn't have to kill his father to prevail, and love won out in the end. That's a **** good story.

Yeah, Lucas basically discusses the Force fairly in depth during a story conference he's having during the Clone Wars. I think it was included on the Saga blu-ray set. There's also the whole balance issue presented as a metaphore in the Mortis trilogy in Clone Wars... it's pretty interesting stuff. But it's clear "balance" means the Light Side is dominant, but it's not 100% in line with what the Jedi Order is practicing.

Ultimately "balance" is love, meaning self-sacrifice, completely subordinating your own wishes and desires to help someone else. It's pretty cool stuff. I'll see if I can dig that up anywhere.

Yancy

But "bringing balance to the Force" actually means triumph of the Light over the Dark Side.

...

Anecdotally (is this a word?), if the Force is a person, then the Dark Side is a sickness, and the Light Side is good health. So bringing balance to this person would mean getting rid of the sickness. And that's what Anakin did at the end of Return of the Jedi.

I like it, makes sense to me. It does cause problems for the post-E6 EU though: if Anakin really was the Chosen One to bring balance (i.e.: triumph of the Light), then all the cloned-Emperor garbage, and maybe (hopefully) the Vong garbage becomes impossible. I hope E7-9 destroys those parts of the EU.

There are indications that the upcoming movies may destroy pretty much all the post-E6 EU, and good riddance!

I'll be honest, I loved the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire, but a LOT of the post ROTJ EU has been just awful. I've read most of it, but once they introduced the Vong, I knew folks running the book line had completely lost it. Fortunately Dark Horse still put out quality stuf like Legacy. But, I really hope Episode VII just wipes the slate clean with the post-Jedi EU.

Yancy

I'll be honest, I loved the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire, but a LOT of the post ROTJ EU has been just awful. I've read most of it, but once they introduced the Vong, I knew folks running the book line had completely lost it. Fortunately Dark Horse still put out quality stuf like Legacy. But, I really hope Episode VII just wipes the slate clean with the post-Jedi EU.

I didn't mind Thrawn, that seemed like a sort of normal "hey, just because the Emperor is dead doesn't mean it's completely over...there are a lot of powerful Imperials left, and there's a lot of cleanup to do". The rest is trash, and I'm being kind. However, I was surprised how good Legacy was. Anakin might have been the Chosen One, but as DylanRPG said, it doesn't mean "for all time". Revan might have been a "Chosen One" for his era. A few generations distance and anything could happen. If the Dark Side is the disease, well, you can never eradicate it fully.

*flamesuit*

I think the Vong was probably the best thing to happen to the EU. Shook things up from the standard "new Imperial Moff in power" stories that came out time to time.

So many people hate the Vong storyline, but I've never really heard concise reasons why, except for the disappointment of certain characters getting killed. The Vong books raised a lot of great questions and discussion about the Force, and Jacen develops into a very interesting and complex character. Probably my favorite EU character.

*flamesuit*

ROFL

You bring up excellent points. My issue with them is really quite stupid. But it's valid for me. They weren't "Star Wars".

I felt like it a plot stretch to include beings ridiculously powerful that couldn't be affected by The Force. It was almost like, "Well... what threats can we honestly throw at them now?"

Plus... they're... kinda Emo.

*flamesuit*

ROFL

I think the Vong was probably the best thing to happen to the EU. Shook things up from the standard "new Imperial Moff in power" stories that came out time to time.

So many people hate the Vong storyline, but I've never really heard concise reasons why, except for the disappointment of certain characters getting killed. The Vong books raised a lot of great questions and discussion about the Force, and Jacen develops into a very interesting and complex character. Probably my favorite EU character.

You bring up excellent points. My issue with them is really quite stupid. But it's valid for me. They weren't "Star Wars".

I felt like it a plot stretch to include beings ridiculously powerful that couldn't be affected by The Force. It was almost like, "Well... what threats can we honestly throw at them now?"

Plus... they're... kinda Emo.

What GM Chris said... they were basically the Star Wars equivalent of the Borg. Absolutely ridiculous and did not fit in the universe.

Yancy

LOL, GMChris sums it up.

I guess I'd disagree about the quality of the "nature of the Force" discussions, the whole thing is over-analyzed and moves further and further away from the simple-yet-profound canon explanations. And none of the characters are very appealing to me, their motives are trite. Yeah, I thought the way Chewbacca went out was completely lame, but I was already turned off before that point.

Plus, I'm tired of "some new super-weapon" and "some new super-species" (curse you, Troy Denning).

If I have a favourite EU tale, it's the MedStar duology. Great characters and stories without the need for galaxy-threatening plot devices.

If I have a favourite EU tale, it's the MedStar duology. Great characters and stories without the need for galaxy-threatening plot devices.

While there are other books that rate higher for me, I can agree that the MedStar duology was really good, and is probably one of the better Clone Wars books to date.

I stand by the assertion that Lucas wrote in midichlorians as a way to make Star Wars, the Force, and the entire mythos appear relevant to our modern social understanding.

Back in the 70's and 80's, people were more open to believing in a mystical Force that existed beyond physical understanding. These days, people need hard facts and evidence to believe anything exists.

Regardless, the Force was way cooler in its original interpretation. Making it a mere midichlorian count is taking away the tension behind whether or not the hero can overcome the enemy. I mean... if you have a number on this stuff... it's not hard to imagine who is more powerful. And then when the more powerful ends up losing... it doesn't make any sense (Obi Wan vs Anakin or Yoda vs Palpatine for instance.)

I hope they don't put that garbage in this game.

Not even close, again I have no clue where people get this stuff from. The midi-chlorians have never been and never were in Lucas' mind... the Force. They are simply the gateway and served basically four points:

1) Explains, in a tangible way, why Anakin is more powerful and Force sensitive than the other Jedi. It further reinforces the fact that he is a loner, so even though he's sitting there with his fellow Jedi he knows in the end he's "better" than the rest of them... which of course leads to a whole host of other problems (jealousy, resentment, arrogance).

2) Establishes the point of the line in ROTJ, "the Force runs strong in my family..." Obviously even then Lucas was thinking that there's something which makes the Skywalker clan special versus your run of the mill Jedi. (BTW, Yes I'm fully aware of story conversations he had with Lawrence Kasdan in which he states anyone can learn to use the Force, "it's like yoga" was his direct quote. Doesn't invalidate anything with the introduction of midi-chlorians... they simply qauge your potential).

3) It reinforces one of the central themes of Episode I... symbiotic relations... working together. So you have this thing in your blood which works with each individual as conduit to the Force, and as Qui-Gon says:

"...we are symbionts with them. Life-forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians,

life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

Contrast that with two societies, the Naboo and the Gungans who are face with a mutual enemy in the Trade Federation. They are forced to work together to ensure their mutual survival. Lucas clarified this in an interview:

"Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something–which will come out someday–to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn’t exist. And it’s really a way of saying we have hundreds of little creatures who live on us, and without them, we all would die. There wouldn’t be any life. They are necessary for us; we are necessary for them. Using them in the metaphor, saying society is the same way, says we all must get along with each other."

4) Which leads to the final reason for their presence... an explanation for Anakin's "virgin birth." In Revenge of the Sith Palpatine more than implies that in some fashion he and his master at the time, Darth Plagueis, are responsible for the creation of Anakin.

"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life. He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying."

Whether you agree with his storytelling decisions here or not, there was a reasoning behind them and they are not simply some effort to make the Force more relatable to a modern audience.

Yancy

1. We don't need a number count for that. These are character elements that are self evident.

2. In RotJ, everyone accepted that the Force ran strong in the family without MC's. Adding in the explanation later is irrelevant because it was already understood. The people who don't understand, are the ones who need some sort of scientific explanation. Thus, my original point.

3. Yeah - none of this crap is even remotely important or relevant. It's just made up crap so people could insert their evolution theories into. Again, it's relevant to our modern social understandings. If this stuff were at all important, we would have heard Yoda talk about it in ESB and Obi-Wan in ANH. Instead, they talk about the Force in very unphysical, very etherial ways. In fact, Yoda goes out of his way to express how Luke's strength and body have absolutely nothing to do with anything. Why? Well, he didn't say "Because all that matters is your midichlorians."

4. Yeah, that was never actually explained so directly in the films. That is just fan conjecture - I've read all the theories. Palpatine says some stuff... and it isn't even a very strong implication. And besides that, you don't need midichlorians to do something like that. Thinking you do is exactly the kind of social understand mindset I am talking about. He put it in there to feed off of the world's growing acceptance of evolution and biological science.

I understand that there was a reason behind stuff. My point is that there was no reason to change the nature of the Force in the first place, except to give modern audiences something agreeable.

Lucas took a mystical Force that is beyond explanation and made it into Science Fiction where everything can scientifically be explained. What part of anything you said states otherwise?

Well, I'm sorry you don't like some of the key themes or metaphor presented in the Saga, that's fine. And actually #4 is not conjecture, Palpatine flatly hints that is what he has done. We the audience understand this because what Qui-Gon has said to the Jedi Council and Qui-Gon's conversation with Shmi. Anakin doesn't have a clue about this.

And again nothing, zip, nada has changed the fact the Force "is an energy field which surrounds and binds the galaxy together."

Yancy

Man, there always seems to be so much hate for things that aren't the original trilogy and I can never understand why.

Star Wars is more science fantasy than science fiction. The first trilogy made the Force out to be more mystical in nature. The prequel trilogy tried to ground the Force more in science. I think many people balk at that, prefering the Force to remain more elusive or ethereal. Just one of the many things about the prequel trilogy that many people feel let down about.

1) There's also the whole balance issue presented as a metaphore in the Mortis trilogy in Clone Wars... it's pretty interesting stuff.

2) But it's clear "balance" means the Light Side is dominant, but it's not 100% in line with what the Jedi Order is practicing.

3) Ultimately "balance" is love, meaning self-sacrifice, completely subordinating your own wishes and desires to help someone else. It's pretty cool stuff. I'll see if I can dig that up anywhere.

Yancy

Based on 1 you cannot really conclude with 2 based on how I interpreted that story - as the whole Mortis trilogy was about the controlling the daughter and son: to keep both the dark and light in check, because they cannot exist without the other, and the one cannot be allowed to triumph over the other, because then you cannot know it and hence you become it, inadvertently. That's why they need the old man to keep them balanced and in check - or Anakin, as he was offered the job and declined, the cowardly emo-kid that he is.

[rant]And [explicit language galore] Troy Denning can go [more explicit language]. If people think The Vong are crap and non-Star Wars, then his Abeloth freakshow is more Lovecraft, a poor, very poor imitation, and not Star Wars-esque at all. I'd rather have emo-self-mutilators with cool bio-tech, than some silly shapeshifting super-tentacled-lonely-emo-freak. The worst addition to Star Wars since... well, the Vong I guess (and I liked the Vong!)[/rant]

3) Oh, that's some good ideals and very fitting a fundamentalist and dogmatic Light sider.

I'm more on board with GMChris' interpretation.

Man, there always seems to be so much hate for things that aren't the original trilogy and I can never understand why.

Agree.

And I know we're beating a dead horse, but that's why I like the Vong stuff. The Star Wars universe is so vast and diverse that there's pretty much room for anything . In my mind there's very little that I would consider "not Star Wars". Pretty much the only thing I never want to see is Time Travel. There's been a little bit of it with like the Flow Walking or whatever it was, but I hope it never gets farther than that.

I even liked the Star Wars: Zombies novel that came out in a fun kind of way. So, imo, there's plenty of room in the Universe for a species like the Vong which are disconnected from the Force. Afterall, the holy trilogy of EU books (Thrawn) introduced the Ysallimiri, which were similar (created a non-force bubble or whatever it was).

My favorite parts of the Vong books were the Force discussions, but also that the heroes had to come up with a lot of cool strategies to fight them. And, the Vong were an interesting way to counter the hypothetical Force "escalation". What I mean is that more and more some authors use the Force to do whatever they want (ie Force Unleashed). But against the Vong, the Force was limited, so it kept the Deus Ex Machina Force stuff in check.

But yeah, the Vong were emo, I'll agree with that

i liked the Darth Plagueis book, and how it tells about the force,

a force book would be nice, not about jedi but by the manny minor force cults

But yeah, the Vong were emo, I'll agree with that

Not so emo as Abeloth ... Abeloth corrupted small children and when they hit puberty they disavowed their parents, family and friends to instead run off and be a general nuisance and annoyance for every other rational citizen of the galaxy. All the while looking for a "friend" or "idol" in an entity whose name sounds like an emo-band, all with bad poetry and loneliness, social terror, trying to make friends, not really managing it, being sad about it and throwing galaxy wide tantrums ... Troy Denning I curse you for [explicit] and [explicit] the Star Wars universe with such a perversion and literary regurgitated faecal flotsam that Abeloth is. Shame on you!

The Vong were more Goth really, which us way better! Not cyber-goths, but bio-goths.

But yeah, the Vong were emo, I'll agree with that

Not so emo as Abeloth ... Abeloth corrupted small children and when they hit puberty they disavowed their parents, family and friends to instead run off and be a general nuisance and annoyance for every other rational citizen of the galaxy. All the while looking for a "friend" or "idol" in an entity whose name sounds like an emo-band, all with bad poetry and loneliness, social terror, trying to make friends, not really managing it, being sad about it and throwing galaxy wide tantrums ... Troy Denning I curse you for [explicit] and [explicit] the Star Wars universe with such a perversion and literary regurgitated faecal flotsam that Abeloth is. Shame on you!

The Vong were more Goth really, which us way better! Not cyber-goths, but bio-goths.

I've never heard of Abeloth. Where is that from?

The incredibly disappointing Fate of the Jedi series ... Denning ties her/it to the Mortis trilogy (Clone Wars) even ... its heresy! May Troy Denning ... [explicit]. I think Troy Denning has managed to replace Kevin J Anderson as the worst writer of star wars novels (which is quite a feat, competition is hard) that has written more than 1 book.

I warn you Jegergryte don't read Crucible... it burns.

Yancy

I'll try not to... but who knows, perhaps one day I'll be so bored I'll just have to expose myself to such self-inflicted scarring.

Anyways, back on topic.

imho, i like fate of the jedi, and abeloth and the pool, i would like to read more of that stuff, that is a little more less star wars classic feel,

on anonother note, a origins of the force book would be cool, like how the first people found the force at the core worlds, pre republic stuff, but that's just ,e

I liked when Luke was able to talk to Mara and Jacen in the afterlife and Jacen was still being a jerk. I was glad Jacen turned to the dark side since I never liked his character. Anakin was the only Solo kid I liked.