What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

Contrariwise, if you are playing in an alternate universe(though I disagree that this is the case "by definition"), is there really any inherent value in an "official" write up of a character?

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

Contrariwise, if you are playing in an alternate universe(though I disagree that this is the case "by definition"), is there really any inherent value in an "official" write up of a character?

Sure. Having a baseline is always a good thing. If I've found that I consistantly need to upgrade or reduce stats from other baselines, I'll know which way I should likely go with the next sample piece.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

My players play in the existing Star Wars universe, playing out the stuff happening away from the action. Some of it may tie into it (assisting in clearing out pirates controlling a hyperspace lane so that supplies can be moved from an outer rim base to the Battle of Endor) but most of it will be more tied to their own obligations. It doesn't make it an alternate universe by any definition.

As I said, you can easily make your own stats. Maybe even bring them here and get feedback and crowdsource your information. But this is very different than asking the company that makes the game to produce verified stats for the single most important characters in the game world.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

My players play in the existing Star Wars universe, playing out the stuff happening away from the action. Some of it may tie into it (assisting in clearing out pirates controlling a hyperspace lane so that supplies can be moved from an outer rim base to the Battle of Endor) but most of it will be more tied to their own obligations. It doesn't make it an alternate universe by any definition.

As I said, you can easily make your own stats. Maybe even bring them here and get feedback and crowdsource your information. But this is very different than asking the company that makes the game to produce verified stats for the single most important characters in the game world.

I can - and will - ask for stats on canon charaters. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'll continue to ask.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

My players play in the existing Star Wars universe, playing out the stuff happening away from the action. Some of it may tie into it (assisting in clearing out pirates controlling a hyperspace lane so that supplies can be moved from an outer rim base to the Battle of Endor) but most of it will be more tied to their own obligations. It doesn't make it an alternate universe by any definition.

As I said, you can easily make your own stats. Maybe even bring them here and get feedback and crowdsource your information. But this is very different than asking the company that makes the game to produce verified stats for the single most important characters in the game world.

I can - and will - ask for stats on canon charaters. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'll continue to ask.

Just as I'll contine to oppose it.

If its something you can do on your own, why do you need them to provide it?

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

My players play in the existing Star Wars universe, playing out the stuff happening away from the action. Some of it may tie into it (assisting in clearing out pirates controlling a hyperspace lane so that supplies can be moved from an outer rim base to the Battle of Endor) but most of it will be more tied to their own obligations. It doesn't make it an alternate universe by any definition.

As I said, you can easily make your own stats. Maybe even bring them here and get feedback and crowdsource your information. But this is very different than asking the company that makes the game to produce verified stats for the single most important characters in the game world.

I can - and will - ask for stats on canon charaters. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'll continue to ask.

Just as I'll contine to oppose it.

If its something you can do on your own, why do you need them to provide it?

I believe that you're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll put this out there for you like you're five;

We could have done alien species on our own (and some people have), but we want and expect more official write-ups from FFG. We could have done starships on our own (and some people have), but we want and expect more official write-ups from FFG. We could have done weapons and equipment on our own (and some people have), but we want and expect more official write-ups from FFG. We could do canon characters on our own (and some people may have), but some of us want and expect official write-ups from FFG.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

My players play in the existing Star Wars universe, playing out the stuff happening away from the action. Some of it may tie into it (assisting in clearing out pirates controlling a hyperspace lane so that supplies can be moved from an outer rim base to the Battle of Endor) but most of it will be more tied to their own obligations. It doesn't make it an alternate universe by any definition.

As I said, you can easily make your own stats. Maybe even bring them here and get feedback and crowdsource your information. But this is very different than asking the company that makes the game to produce verified stats for the single most important characters in the game world.

I can - and will - ask for stats on canon charaters. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'll continue to ask.

Just as I'll contine to oppose it.

If its something you can do on your own, why do you need them to provide it?

I believe that you're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll put this out there for you like you're five;

We could have done alien species on our own (and some people have), but we want and expect more official write-ups from FFG. We could have done starships on our own (and some people have), but we want and expect more official write-ups from FFG. We could have done weapons and equipment on our own (and some people have), but we want and expect more official write-ups from FFG. We could do canon characters on our own (and some people may have), but some of us want and expect official write-ups from FFG.

Actually, I wasn't but now you're being deliberately rude.

Gear, ships, aliens - none of these are specific characters. Adding specific stats for these things that aren't in the core book yet is an inevitability. Having stats for cannon characters isn't a requirement and is something that more people than myself would like to not see. Its one of the very few areas of the game world I feel should remain a mystery.

What I meant when I said "concrete" is that there should be eternal markers in this universe. In my mind, unassailable characters that define the world. Vader, Palpatine, Solo, Organa, Skywalker - these are those markers to me. They DEFINE the world itself and to allow the players to challenge them in combat feels like its "breaking" the universe. I think, purely from the perspective of FFG and official products, this is a bad idea. They need to maintain the universe, first and foremost (and speaking about it just now, Disney may not ALLOW them to give characters this important stats). If you want to make your own stats and even publish them online - that's the glory of a game like this. You can! I have no issue there. I don't like making them "official" from FFG.

Since every game is by definition an alternate take on the Star Wars experience, the idea of an 'eternal marker' doesn't really appeal to me. I'd instead rather have official stats that can be scaled up or down as needed for the story.

Contrariwise, if you are playing in an alternate universe(though I disagree that this is the case "by definition"), is there really any inherent value in an "official" write up of a character?

Sure. Having a baseline is always a good thing. If I've found that I consistantly need to upgrade or reduce stats from other baselines, I'll know which way I should likely go with the next sample piece.

Again, I fail to see the value(as in, why do we need to use space in a book to do this when it could be put to better use?). If you are going to adjust the stats to fit your campaign anyway, why do you need an official write-up in the first place? You could very easily make your own, and there will certainly be plenty of custom write-ups online. One might even fit what you need without adjustment.

There is also an argument to be made against the idea. If I were to post my own version of Han Solo, some people might like it, and some people definitely would not. The same would happen if you posted yours. Some people might use it, some might not, and that would be the extent of anyone's response. We all use what works best for our games, and people can approve or disapprove to little effect.

On the other hand, if FFG puts an official write-up in a book, there will people whining because it doesn't match up with their expectations. There will be players whining when GMs adjust the stats away from the "official" version(granted, I try not to game with that sort of player, but they are out there, and they tend to be very vocal of message boards). The message board will be filled with as many "Fix my Leia NOW" threads as we get "Give me Jedi NOW" threads already.

Just because you want to remain ignorant by not having the information doesn't mean others should not have the knowledge they seek.

Just because you want to remain ignorant by not having the information doesn't mean others should not have the knowledge they seek.

...really?

It isn't like George Lucas is going to come down from on high and bless you with the Final Word on Han Solo's innermost secrets or Leia's cup size. We're talking about a stat block.

Just because you want to remain ignorant by not having the information doesn't mean others should not have the knowledge they seek.

When the knowledge isn't necessary to enjoy the game, seekers get over it and make their own. Join in that long tradition and DIY.

There's no need to be blatantly rude. Its been a civil conversation.

Just because you want to remain ignorant by not having the information doesn't mean others should not have the knowledge they seek.

When the knowledge isn't necessary to enjoy the game, seekers get over it and make their own. Join in that long tradition and DIY.

There's no need to be blatantly rude. Its been a civil conversation.

DIY is never a good argument for purposely leaving out material. I'm not saying that they need to push out canon characters in preference of all else, but I'm saying that it's not unreasonable to have them much like WEG did with their Galaxy Guides for the Episodes (IV-VI).

DIY is never a good argument for purposely leaving out material. I'm not saying that they need to push out canon characters in preference of all else, but I'm saying that it's not unreasonable to have them much like WEG did with their Galaxy Guides for the Episodes (IV-VI).

And there were people that felt those stat blocks were a total waste of space that could be have much better spent on content they might actually use instead of a bunch of trumped-up NPCs with bloated skill ranks.

Like I said earlier, I hope FFG doesn't make an attempt at "official" stats for the movie heroes. More often than not, it just leads to petty bickering over why "Character X does or doesn't have Cool Talent Y or so many ranks in Skill V to replicate Scene K in movie U." Frankly, use the page space that such stat blocks would take up for NPCs that might actually see use in a GM's game, and leave the main movie characters as plot devices, who fail or succeed as the GM's plot requires.

DIY is never a good argument for purposely leaving out material. I'm not saying that they need to push out canon characters in preference of all else, but I'm saying that it's not unreasonable to have them much like WEG did with their Galaxy Guides for the Episodes (IV-VI).

And there were people that felt those stat blocks were a total waste of space that could be have much better spent on content they might actually use instead of a bunch of trumped-up NPCs with bloated skill ranks.

Like I said earlier, I hope FFG doesn't make an attempt at "official" stats for the movie heroes. More often than not, it just leads to petty bickering over why "Character X does or doesn't have Cool Talent Y or so many ranks in Skill V to replicate Scene K in movie U." Frankly, use the page space that such stat blocks would take up for NPCs that might actually see use in a GM's game, and leave the main movie characters as plot devices, who fail or succeed as the GM's plot requires.

Agreed.

DIY is never a good argument for purposely leaving out material. I'm not saying that they need to push out canon characters in preference of all else, but I'm saying that it's not unreasonable to have them much like WEG did with their Galaxy Guides for the Episodes (IV-VI).

It seems like the baselines you want already exist - why not go from there? Transfer the information to this system and adjust as necessary.

I dislike heavy reference to movie characters and am glad the game has almost none. Those characters had their movies. However, all of them in one sourcebook would be a valid product. I wouldn't buy it but many would. Adding in a handful of adventure hooks with them, or maybe one-scene encounters after the write ups would be neat.

Another option would be having the movie iconics be presented as obligation holders. Thus they could still apear, but only to hound you about your flaws and such. You don't fight Han Solo, but he might be dating your sister.

I dislike heavy reference to movie characters and am glad the game has almost none. Those characters had their movies. However, all of them in one sourcebook would be a valid product. I wouldn't buy it but many would. Adding in a handful of adventure hooks with them, or maybe one-scene encounters after the write ups would be neat.

That's not a bad notion. Mongoose Publishing did pretty much that for the Babylon 5 iconic characters in the "Heroes & Aliens" sourcebook for the 2nd edition of their B5 RPG, with over two-thirds of the book given over to said characters and the remainder used for a couple new prestige classes and a dozen alien races that weren't major players on the show. WEG did something similar with the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook, which covered a whole bunch of Star Wars characters.

Perhaps FFG could do something similar once all three core rulebooks are out, thus enabling them to showcase the movie characters at the various points of their development over the course of the films, as well as highlighting some of the notable EU personalities such as Thrawn, Mara Jade, or Corran Horn and perhaps even covering less important individuals?

Like you, i probably wouldn't buy the book unless they had some really nifty original crunch, but it'd be an option for folks like HappyDaze that are insistent on having those characters given "official" stats.

Darth Vader could have Avesary 10 or more. Plus whenever someone misses him with a blaster bolt, they get it right back in their face.

But I don't really need stats for these kinds of people.

I wouldn't mind stats for various known characters. But then, I've used many of them in past campaigns, such as meeting Boba Fett and Dengar, getting into a Sabacc game with Lando (only to have to help him escape a crime lord) and sneaking aboard The Avenger when Vader was on board. It's nice to have official stats for when they're needed.

Why not just build Canon Characters out like you would any other PC and give them appropriate stats.

Step 2: Starting Obligation: 20 - Debt

Step 3: Species: Human

Step 4 & 5: Smuggler (Scoundrel) (starting specialization and class)

Based on his actions in A New Hope Han Solo takes a Free Rank in the following Career Skills and their justifications:

Deception - When in the Death Star Detention Area Han's first instinct is to try to deceive the security personnel on the other end of the communications into believing that everything was just fine in the detention area. This indicates he has some skill in deception, although we can chalk his failure up to rolling a Despair on the check after possibly failing the first check.

Piloting (Space) - Obviously he flies his ship.

Streetwise - Han Solo is used to dealing with elements of the Underworld. His Conversation with Greedo. Han Fails the check to get Greedo back off and tell Jabba that Han will have the money to pay off Jabba soon, but he gets enough advantage that Greedo doesn't notice that Han has already drawn his weapon under the table.

Vigilance - Remember that scene where Han Solo is running around the Death Star like a madman and runs right into a Storm Trooper Barracks with about a dozen Storm Troopers standing around inside? Remember how Han manages to regain the initiative, fire a first shot, and start running away before the Storm Troopers can gun him down? That is a triumph of Vigilance right there.

He also takes a Free Rank in the following Scoundrel Speicalization Skills:

Cool - Han shot first, enough said.

Ranged (Light) - Han usual weapon is his gold old Heavy Blaster Pistol.

As a Human Han also gets two ranks in two non-class skills:

Athletics - Remember all those scenes where Han's physically running around the Death Star shooting Storm Troopers and jumping between closing Blast Doors. Got to have Athletics in there somewhere.

Astrogation: Han is the one who puts in the Hyperspace Coordinates and calculates the Jump to Light Speed.

Step 6: Spend Experience Points:

Han Solo Spends 90 starting experience increasing Agility, Cunning, and Presence to 3.

15 more Exp on Rapid Reaction (to Help with those initiative checks against Stormtroopers and Greedo) and Quick Strike to add a boost die whenever Han manages to fire the first shot, (which is every time), bringing his total to 105

Han then spends another 10 Experience increasing his ranged light skill to 2 to 115.

The rest of the Obligation Han and Chewie spend the rest of their obligation on the Millennium Falcon, upgrading the guns to quad lasers, upgrading the hyperdrive to .5, and adding smuggling compartments. Han has just enough left over at the end of it all to buy himself a Heavy Blaster Pistol.

That's a close approximation of Han Solo in A New Hope.

Now if you set your game after A New Hope, you just add on more experience to Han Solo as you get him ready, probably picking up Pilot a second specialization along the way.

Here's another idea for DIYers. Somewhere someone made a WEG to FFG converter. I haven't looked at it yet, and I don't have the WEG books, but maybe it can convert the Heroes? Something to explore...

I dislike heavy reference to movie characters and am glad the game has almost none. Those characters had their movies. However, all of them in one sourcebook would be a valid product. I wouldn't buy it but many would. Adding in a handful of adventure hooks with them, or maybe one-scene encounters after the write ups would be neat.

That's not a bad notion. Mongoose Publishing did pretty much that for the Babylon 5 iconic characters in the "Heroes & Aliens" sourcebook for the 2nd edition of their B5 RPG, with over two-thirds of the book given over to said characters and the remainder used for a couple new prestige classes and a dozen alien races that weren't major players on the show. WEG did something similar with the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook, which covered a whole bunch of Star Wars characters.

Perhaps FFG could do something similar once all three core rulebooks are out, thus enabling them to showcase the movie characters at the various points of their development over the course of the films, as well as highlighting some of the notable EU personalities such as Thrawn, Mara Jade, or Corran Horn and perhaps even covering less important individuals?

Like you, i probably wouldn't buy the book unless they had some really nifty original crunch, but it'd be an option for folks like HappyDaze that are insistent on having those characters given "official" stats.

I dislike heavy reference to movie characters and am glad the game has almost none. Those characters had their movies. However, all of them in one sourcebook would be a valid product. I wouldn't buy it but many would. Adding in a handful of adventure hooks with them, or maybe one-scene encounters after the write ups would be neat.

Another option would be having the movie iconics be presented as obligation holders. Thus they could still apear, but only to hound you about your flaws and such. You don't fight Han Solo, but he might be dating your sister.

I had a passing thought about the group encountering a pillar of smoke in the deserts of Tattoine (who am I kidding, it's all desert). Upon arriving they see a speeder with a farm boy and some old coot in a robe heading away from the smoldering hulk of a sand-crawler. You don't even need stats at that point, just little details to anchor thier imaginations.

I pretty much treat canon characters the way the Star Wars Galaxies MMO treated them. They're iconic and not able to be attacked. Anyone who attempted to attack Vader, for example, would be instantly force choked to death. I realize this might not fly with purists, but I've somewhat attempted to address this with my group, by calling these NPCs Legendary and informing my players that these characters will only being making cameos at best and can't really be attacked.

Tbh, I'm glad this game deals with (and encourages gameplay in) the Galaxy beyond the sextet; my group feels like we're carving out our own little piece of the EU.