Is this about a wookie wrestling a Rancor? Adding setback dices assumes that the wookie still has a chance to succeed.

I'm with EldritchFire on this. This should simply fall under the rule "Automatic failure/success".

C'mon now, that's not very "yes, but..." of you... If a player wants to do it after you say how many challenge dice or setback dice or whatever you decide they get, it's their funeral.

C'mon now, that's not very "yes, but..." of you... If a player wants to do it after you say how many challenge dice or setback dice or whatever you decide they get, it's their funeral.

Could make for a nice wtf moment when all the red/black dices turns as blank and you have to describe a wookie piledriving a rancor.

So, I would like to ask a question. In a situation where a Wookie character, who has a Brawn of 6 and Athletics 5 after spending XPs, is trapped with a Rancor with no immediate help. Because the character prizes himself as a champion wrestler, he thinks he can out wrestle a rancor.

If it is that kind of movie, I'd suggest the wookie dives out of the way of the rancors ponderous attacks, climbs up its back and chokes it with a convenient length of chain.

C'mon now, that's not very "yes, but..." of you... If a player wants to do it after you say how many challenge dice or setback dice or whatever you decide they get, it's their funeral.

Could make for a nice wtf moment when all the red/black dices turns as blank and you have to describe a wookie piledriving a rancor.

One of the biggest moments in my saga games was when a player managed to outgrapple a rancor. It's easy to say, "No, autofail," but when you say yes, and give them a massive long shot, they tend to trust you more as a gm. That's my experience, anyway. That being said, I would think 3-4 setback dice would be standard to a roll like that. That gives you 2 setback dice per silhouette difference.

If it is that kind of movie, I'd suggest the wookie dives out of the way of the rancors ponderous attacks, climbs up its back and chokes it with a convenient length of chain.

Haha, what a great scenario.

I said setback dice earlier, but now I'm thinking upgrades and challenge dice are more appropriate. Wrestling a rancor should make despair a serious risk.

I said setback dice earlier, but now I'm thinking upgrades and challenge dice are more appropriate. Wrestling a rancor should make despair a serious risk.

Agreed. You have to include possibility of Despair in that type of scenario.

Wouldn't the Rancor get the planetary size weapon damage where each one point counts as 10?

Is this about a wookie wrestling a Rancor? Adding setback dices assumes that the wookie still has a chance to succeed.

I'm with EldritchFire on this. This should simply fall under the rule "Automatic failure/success".

C'mon now, that's not very "yes, but..." of you... If a player wants to do it after you say how many challenge dice or setback dice or whatever you decide they get, it's their funeral.

True, but a Wookie can not physically grapple a rancor. The rancor's hand is bigger than the Wookie! Now, if the Wookie got creative and found a length of chain to strangle the rancor with, I'd give him a chance to do so. But one on one, nothing else, it's physically impossible for a Wookie to grapple something that won't even notice when they step on him.

So I guess my "yes, but…" would be something to the tune of, "Yes, you can grapple with the rancor, but you'll need to find a tool to assist. It's too big to go it alone."

-EF

If a character was dead set on squaring off with a Rancor or found themselves in that unenviable situation I'd allow it (stay tuned), but trying to sell me on "yeah but I'm really strong and...you know...Brawn scores + moar dices!" isn't going to cut it. HOWEVER, there are other ways of looking at an encounter with a massive creature than a simple straight up combat skill or opposed wrrraaaaasssstlin test with fist fulls of dice (more does not always a better game make).

There are a LOT of big critters in the SW 'verse. Huge worms, big dragon thingies, rampaging whatsits and a whole bevy of fluttering calamities. They are the size of starfighters and assault vehicles. So...run with that comparison.

If a player at my table found themselves facing down a hungry hungry Rancor in Jaba's palace, they wouldn't immediately be corked, but they may want to say a few prayers. Now let's get cinematic. My rancor is going to have a harder time hitting them (check the silhouette difficulty list in the vehicle section) because the player is S1 and his is S3. My rancor is in a cramped space, so I'm going to make him burn a maneuver just to turn facing and re-engage each round because we'll assume that our player is flitting about the area. Finally, he's gotta be something like 8 or 9 meters tall.

The poor unfortunate player could try to climb the Rancor, zip around on the ground enraging the big dumb animal with superior maneuverability, wedge themselves into a good hiding spot, attempt to throw some ordinance into its mouth, manipulate something else in the environment to either get away or do in the great beast (a la Luke Skywalker). And if the Rancor gets ahold of a player that's the point where I'd let them make an Opposed Brawn test because one of the thing's hands is probably as strong as a wookie, so sure..let it ride. But all success is going to allow them to do is escape the Rancor's clutches (and maybe rob the beast of its free maneuver with Advantage like Luke did by stuffing a bone in its mouth). All of these things drive home the idea that I am not out to flat out fiat-murder the player character. BUT...they aren't going to be wearing down my 40 hitpoints through 12 soak very easily either. They need to either escape through a ventilation hatch (climb the Rancor and get to the ceiling!), or figure out a way to cause a cave-in, or find a way to lure the big brute back into its cage and then lock the door, or throw a pack full of thermal detonators into its mouth, climb into a heavy combat tank and unloading on it, unleashing a SECOND Rancor to fight the first...or....something creative and collaborative. I want the player to succeed. I want to have a cool Rancor encounter.

But scooping up a fist full of more dice and resolving with bog-standard combat tests for six hours while the PC whittles down 40 Wounds just sounds....ugh. Likewise, trying to chain-choke the Rancor like it was Jaba the Hutt is about as cinematically entertaining as watching a human character get choked out by a length of colored string by a tabby cat....the physics just don't seem to line up. BUT... wrapping a huge crazy drag chain around the Rancor and then attaching the other end to a spaceship...dragging the thing into space whilst being cooked by ion engine wash...yeah I could dig that.

There are some good ideas being posted. Handling akward situations in this system sure does make gms/players think more than previous games I have played. If I can find a group in Lincoln, NE, I should have fun just creating interesting events from turn to turn.

I guess I am still hard wired to systems that are more detailed.

So, I would like to ask a question. In a situation where a Wookie character, who has a Brawn of 6 and Athletics 5 after spending XPs, is trapped with a Rancor with no immediate help. Because the character prizes himself as a champion wrestler, he thinks he can out wrestle a rancor. What are some suggestions to forming a dice pool to reflect the size and strength difference?

Handle it the same way you'd respond to a wookie PC thinking of wrestling a Silhouette 3 Y-Wing. A raised eyebrow and, "come on Gary, I mean an ACTUAL plan..."

LMAO!

If a character was dead set on squaring off with a Rancor or found themselves in that unenviable situation I'd allow it (stay tuned), but trying to sell me on "yeah but I'm really strong and...you know...Brawn scores + moar dices!" isn't going to cut it. HOWEVER, there are other ways of looking at an encounter with a massive creature than a simple straight up combat skill or opposed wrrraaaaasssstlin test with fist fulls of dice (more does not always a better game make).

There are a LOT of big critters in the SW 'verse. Huge worms, big dragon thingies, rampaging whatsits and a whole bevy of fluttering calamities. They are the size of starfighters and assault vehicles. So...run with that comparison.

If a player at my table found themselves facing down a hungry hungry Rancor in Jaba's palace, they wouldn't immediately be corked, but they may want to say a few prayers. Now let's get cinematic. My rancor is going to have a harder time hitting them (check the silhouette difficulty list in the vehicle section) because the player is S1 and his is S3. My rancor is in a cramped space, so I'm going to make him burn a maneuver just to turn facing and re-engage each round because we'll assume that our player is flitting about the area. Finally, he's gotta be something like 8 or 9 meters tall.

The poor unfortunate player could try to climb the Rancor, zip around on the ground enraging the big dumb animal with superior maneuverability, wedge themselves into a good hiding spot, attempt to throw some ordinance into its mouth, manipulate something else in the environment to either get away or do in the great beast (a la Luke Skywalker). And if the Rancor gets ahold of a player that's the point where I'd let them make an Opposed Brawn test because one of the thing's hands is probably as strong as a wookie, so sure..let it ride. But all success is going to allow them to do is escape the Rancor's clutches (and maybe rob the beast of its free maneuver with Advantage like Luke did by stuffing a bone in its mouth). All of these things drive home the idea that I am not out to flat out fiat-murder the player character. BUT...they aren't going to be wearing down my 40 hitpoints through 12 soak very easily either. They need to either escape through a ventilation hatch (climb the Rancor and get to the ceiling!), or figure out a way to cause a cave-in, or find a way to lure the big brute back into its cage and then lock the door, or throw a pack full of thermal detonators into its mouth, climb into a heavy combat tank and unloading on it, unleashing a SECOND Rancor to fight the first...or....something creative and collaborative. I want the player to succeed. I want to have a cool Rancor encounter.

But scooping up a fist full of more dice and resolving with bog-standard combat tests for six hours while the PC whittles down 40 Wounds just sounds....ugh. Likewise, trying to chain-choke the Rancor like it was Jaba the Hutt is about as cinematically entertaining as watching a human character get choked out by a length of colored string by a tabby cat....the physics just don't seem to line up. BUT... wrapping a huge crazy drag chain around the Rancor and then attaching the other end to a spaceship...dragging the thing into space whilst being cooked by ion engine wash...yeah I could dig that.

This.

Grapple would only come into effect in an instance when the Rancor has gotten his hands on the hapless PC - at which point, the character's opposed test is more a case of "escape unscathed" than "layeth the smackdown on the rancor!"

If a player decided to try and wrestle the rancor, then the question I'd ask is "okay: how?" As the system is narrative, I'd allow the roll IF the player can come up with a valid idea as to how in the world they could work it; but simply allowing a human-sized character to Tom/Jerry the rancor using nothing but "sheer powarz!!!" strains believeability - and, to me, detracts from the story (Force gripping a Star Destroyer, anyone?). It, like an attempt to persuade a Wampa not to eat you through seduction, would be an automatic fail.

I'm AFB but what is the Rancor's Soak and/or Defence value? Wound Threshold?

From what I can remember in the beta book larger targets are easier to hit, so brawling a Rancor would be Easy as opposed to Average difficulty, but I agree that a few setback dice due to thick skin, weight, big toes, smell, fear (unless calling for a fear check initially, always good idea ), and so on.

Fear checks are your friend. I mean, who wouldn't cack themselves when facing down a drooling, snarling, nine-foot tall monster (even with a name like Fluffy)?

I have to agree. Grappling a rancor is not doable. Grappling part of a rancor totally can be. In my own game, the player who out grappled a rancor had 4 arms, huge strength and grapple bonuses, and only got a grapple check to resist being grabbed. He didn't full Nelson the rancor, because he didn't have twelve-foot arms.

Remember that adding backpacks and utility belts increases one's encumbrance capacity. So a Dewback with a proper saddle and such would not actually be encumbered by a Stormtrooper rider.

As for the Rancor "only" having a brawn of 6, I am getting the sense that the statistics are more "logrhythmic" than linear. Although I'll be the first to say that it's more an approximation than an exact science. It's possible to say that each stat point is not +1 better than the previous stat, but more like an exponent +1 better than the previous stat level. I think getting an exact approximation is too much detail. I think 6 Brawn for a Rancor is just fine, especially when combined with its other stats.

I think for myself, the best illustration is the idea of Silhouette. Size 0 is a Jawa, size 10 is (either) Death Star. That's certainly not linear progression.

For example, a Hutt Crime Lord and a Rancor have the same brawn of 6, but I would not expect the hutt to take down a Rancor in a fist fight, as the Awkward ability adds 3 setback dice to any sort of melee attack a Hutt might have to make.

Then why does the Rancor in the book only have 6 Brawn Characteristic? Doesn't make sense.

Just got my book, and I finally have an answer. Page 15, under characteristic ratings: "Characterisic ratings for both PCs and NPCs generally range from one to six. Some exceptions exist, especially in powerful or unique cases -- for example, a rancor likely has a Brawn rating much higher than one of the PCs."

The captive rancor may be weak so the party doesn't get brutalized, but that sentence right there basically means do whatever you want with that.

I said setback dice earlier, but now I'm thinking upgrades and challenge dice are more appropriate. Wrestling a rancor should make despair a serious risk.

Agreed. You have to include possibility of Despair in that type of scenario.

+1. Not only should there be lots of purple dice (should be at very least Daunting challenge), there should be a red die in there as well to account for the challenge. Set back dice should be included only if there is something additional to the challenge at hand which is going to cause problems. E.g. Rancor has slept in its own faeces and the foul smell is turning the characters stomach making him/her uneasy in the combat/challenge situation.

The purple and red die are for the actual encounter/challenge itself. Set back and boost die are added due to circumstantial elements, being either positive or negative for the player.

1 Brawn: Scrawny, weaker than an average human.

2 Brawn: Average human strength.

3 Brawn: Average Wookie strength, physically fit human (like a football player or something).

4 Brawn: Above average strength. Strong enough to swing around Gatling guns with no problem.

5 Brawn: Incredibly fit people. Capable of impressive feats of stamina and strength. Olympic competitors.

6 Brawn: Absurdly powerful people at the pique of their physical strength, like Bruce Lee at his prime or a Gold Medal winner. Or, you're a cyborg that's also pretty strong even without cybernetic enhancements.

7 Brawn: Bruce Lee with robotic arms. Give up all hope.

Brawn, or any characteristic for that matter, should likely never get higher than 7 at the VERY highest (and even then only if they have Dedication and cybernetic parts, or have some kind of capability that would make them even stronger. Not even for massive creatures like Rancors or Krayt Dragons, like others have said. Brawn is a combination of someone's strength, frame, and how they apply that strength. Rancors are huge and naturally powerful, but they are, at the end of the day, just giant monsters. They use brute force, and they are good at it. But, Bruce Lee has 6 Brawn as well. While he isn't technically as physically fit as a Rancor, since he doesn't physically have that capability, he knows his limits and knows exactly how to reach them and master his own body. Thus, he has 6 Brawn.

I mean, if we start throwing creatures with 10 or 12 Brawn at people, how are the players, who could never get higher than 7, ever hope to survive? One of the best things about this system is that a lucky roll from an average person's blaster could technically mess up a Sith Lord under the perfect circumstances. Raising stat caps that much higher than 5 completely defeats the realness of this system, and I think that is a horrible idea.

Now, if Bruce Lee was a rancor...

1 Brawn: Scrawny, weaker than an average human.

2 Brawn: Average human strength.

3 Brawn: Average Wookie strength, physically fit human (like a football player or something).

4 Brawn: Above average strength. Strong enough to swing around Gatling guns with no problem.

5 Brawn: Incredibly fit people. Capable of impressive feats of stamina and strength. Olympic competitors.

6 Brawn: Absurdly powerful people at the pique of their physical strength, like Bruce Lee at his prime or a Gold Medal winner. Or, you're a cyborg that's also pretty strong even without cybernetic enhancements.

7 Brawn: Bruce Lee with robotic arms. Give up all hope.

Brawn, or any characteristic for that matter, should likely never get higher than 7 at the VERY highest (and even then only if they have Dedication and cybernetic parts, or have some kind of capability that would make them even stronger. Not even for massive creatures like Rancors or Krayt Dragons, like others have said. Brawn is a combination of someone's strength, frame, and how they apply that strength. Rancors are huge and naturally powerful, but they are, at the end of the day, just giant monsters. They use brute force, and they are good at it. But, Bruce Lee has 6 Brawn as well. While he isn't technically as physically fit as a Rancor, since he doesn't physically have that capability, he knows his limits and knows exactly how to reach them and master his own body. Thus, he has 6 Brawn.

I mean, if we start throwing creatures with 10 or 12 Brawn at people, how are the players, who could never get higher than 7, ever hope to survive? One of the best things about this system is that a lucky roll from an average person's blaster could technically mess up a Sith Lord under the perfect circumstances. Raising stat caps that much higher than 5 completely defeats the realness of this system, and I think that is a horrible idea.

Now, if Bruce Lee was a rancor...

I named my Rancor Chuck Norris.

I named my Rancor Chuck Norris.

That's the spirit!

I originally used Chuck Norris in my example, over Bruce Lee, but I didn't know if the cool kids were still referencing him.

Wookiee vs Rancor

Easy, Wookiee rolls self into ball and wedges in Rancor's throat, who then chokes to death on a giant hairball.

Call it the Hairball manoeuvre.

I named my Rancor Chuck Lee, and his twin brother Bruce Norris. Unbeatable.