In chapter 7 p.234 there is a Pilot Only Action called "Gain the Advantage" I have a couple of questions on.

#1 - On p.234 it says "To execute this starship action, the pilot makes a Piloting check the difficulty of which is determined by the relative speeds of the ships or vehicles involved in the attack. These difficulties are outlined in Table 7-3: Speed Advantage Difficulty."

So this seems to indicate that the only factor in the difficulty of the "Gain the Advantage" action is the relative speeds of the two ships. Piloting skill has nothing to do with it. The "Evasive Maneuvers" maneuver also seems to have no effect as this only upgrades the dice pool for attacks made against the ship.

However back on p.116 under the Piloting (Space) skill it says "During space conflict, pilots may often jockey for possition to determine which shields face the enemy and which weapons may be brought to bear. When opponents attempt to negate these efforts, the winner is identified throuh an opposed Pilot (Space) check."

The Piloting (Space) skill description (noted above) seems to be talking about the "Gain the Advantage" action but the description of the mechanics here don't seem to match the actual "Gain the Advantage" rules on p.234. Thoughts. Am I reading too much into this.

I must say I'd rather the "Gain the Advantage" action be an opposed check so that the skill of the pilot is taken into account. Modify the difficulty by the speed of the ships sure but having the pilot's skill taken into account seems obvious.

#2 - On p.234 (last paragraph of "Gain the Advantage" it says "Once the advantage has been gained, on the following turn the opponent may attempt to cancel out the advantage by using Gain the Advantage as well. This works as described earlier, but his check is one step more difficult for each time he or his opponent has successfully Gained the Advantage against the other."

A) Am I reading the rules correctly. If the target of the "Gain the Advantage" is in a ship with a max speed of 3 or less they cannot attempt to cancel out the advantage??? Two of the three starting ships have a max speed of 3. Does this mean that if the PCs are jumped by TIE fighters who "Gain the Advantage" there is no way for them to shake "Gain the Advantage" because they aren't fast enough to meet the Speed 4+ requirement for the action? Regardless of the pilots skill its just impossible to break the advantage if you ship it too slow. Also once this happens does not the "Angle Deflector Shields" action become moot.

B) Lets assume there are two fighters dogfighting and that they are going the same speed. The first fighter tries to "Gain the Advantage" with an Average difficulty check. Then the second fighter tries to break the advantage and tires a "Gain the Advantage" action with an Average difficulty that goes up on step to Hard because the first fighter already has successfuly used "Gain the Advantage" once. Let's say the second fighter is successful. Now its the first fighter's turn and he attempts "Gain the Advantage" again. Is his difficulty Daunting (Adverage that goes up two steps becuase both fighters have successfully used "Gain the Advantage" once or is it Hard because his opponent has only use "Gain the Advantage" once.) Regardless at some point is it not possible for the two fighter to pass the ball back and forth enough for the possibility that"Gain the Advantage" becomes impossible?

Sorry for the ramble... trying to understand how starship combat is dynamic as the book seems to describe when it reality it seems very limited and static where the pilot's skill seems to have little or no effect on the results.

Thanks,

Wraith428

Except that Pilot skill does have an impact, as its a Piloting Check that continuously gets harder, so the better Pilot is going to be able to eventually Gain the Advantage to a degree that the weaker pilot can't take it back.

If it was an opposed check, you'd pretty much get a single roll that would say "Well, Bob has the advantage, and there's really no hope for you to get it back."

The way it actually works, you get that back and forth. One pilot Gains the Advantage, and the next is then struggling to break it. Eventually, the better pilot should always win, but it isn't immediate--its a drawn out chase scene, that is longer or shorter depending on how good the weaker pilot is.

Okay but lets say I have a 4 Agility character with 5 ranks in Pilot (Space) [exagerated on purpose] in a stock YT-1300 freighter at its max speed of 3.

TIE fighter comes in with an 2 Agility NPC with 1 rank in Pilot (Space) going speed 4. That TIE fighter needs to only make an Easy check to "Gain the Advantage" and keep it for the whole battle because my speed 3 max YT-1300 negates my 4 Agility and 5 ranks in Pilot. Because I can't get to speed 4 I cannot attempt the "Gain the Advantage" maneuver and now all the XP I spent on Piloting means nothing as the 1 rank NPC betters me?

Unless you start the game with a Firespray there is no back and forth because you don't have the speed to use the "Gain the Advantage" action and thus break the opponent's advantage. At least as I understand it.

Now don't get me wrong... I see the potential of the "Gain the Advantage" action to represent dog fighting and the back and forth of a space battle but the speed requirement negates that. I might be able to accept the non-opposed check as you say eventually the best pilot should win (and in my example above its obvious the 4 Agility 5 rank character would eventually win) but right now speed is the king of this action and really hampers that feeling of back and forth.

Wraith428

A stock YT-1300 isn't fast or maneuverable enough to be able to dogfight with, say, a fighter. The MIllennium Falcon has upgraded engines and maneuvering thrusters, though, and actually can dogfight with starfighters.

If a smuggler wants to evade starfighters and patrol craft, he should be looking at upgrading his ship with a High-Powered Ion Turbine. That will take the YT-1300 up to the minimum 4 speed for the action and allow it to maneuver with the big boys. A truly skilled pilot will be needed to overcome the sluggish handling, though, especially when up against trained starfighter pilots.

As far as which pilot would win, the more skilled pilot would likely end up winning, given all things equal. All things are not equal, however, and the YT-1300 has a huge bonus in the form of the full 360-degree three-dimensional coverage of two turrets, adjustable shields, and a crew to use them all.

A stock YT-1300 isn't fast or maneuverable enough to be able to dogfight with, say, a fighter. The MIllennium Falcon has upgraded engines and maneuvering thrusters, though, and actually can dogfight with starfighters.

If a smuggler wants to evade starfighters and patrol craft, he should be looking at upgrading his ship with a High-Powered Ion Turbine. That will take the YT-1300 up to the minimum 4 speed for the action and allow it to maneuver with the big boys. A truly skilled pilot will be needed to overcome the sluggish handling, though, especially when up against trained starfighter pilots.

As far as which pilot would win, the more skilled pilot would likely end up winning, given all things equal. All things are not equal, however, and the YT-1300 has a huge bonus in the form of the full 360-degree three-dimensional coverage of two turrets, adjustable shields, and a crew to use them all.

I mean, just take a look at the dogfight between the Millennium Falcon and the TIE Fighters in A New Hope. Even with a superior pilot, and upgraded engines, etc, the TIE Fighters are all over the Falcon, to the extent they mostly stop trying to evade them, and put their faith in the shields of the Falcon, and the skill of Han and Luke in the two turrets.

At no point do they really try to dogfight with the TIEs, there wasn't much point.

I mean, just take a look at the dogfight between the Millennium Falcon and the TIE Fighters in A New Hope. Even with a superior pilot, and upgraded engines, etc, the TIE Fighters are all over the Falcon, to the extent they mostly stop trying to evade them, and put their faith in the shields of the Falcon, and the skill of Han and Luke in the two turrets.

At no point do they really try to dogfight with the TIEs, there wasn't much point.

Pretty much. Chewie's a passable pilot, but he's no Han. His best course of action was to keep the ship steady and let Han and Luke blast the TIEs out of the sky.

It was when Han and Lando were in the pilot's seat that the Falcon really got put through its paces. And, the Falcon was a nimble little minx.

I mean, just take a look at the dogfight between the Millennium Falcon and the TIE Fighters in A New Hope. Even with a superior pilot, and upgraded engines, etc, the TIE Fighters are all over the Falcon, to the extent they mostly stop trying to evade them, and put their faith in the shields of the Falcon, and the skill of Han and Luke in the two turrets.

At no point do they really try to dogfight with the TIEs, there wasn't much point.

Pretty much. Chewie's a passable pilot, but he's no Han. His best course of action was to keep the ship steady and let Han and Luke blast the TIEs out of the sky.

It was when Han and Lando were in the pilot's seat that the Falcon really got put through its paces. And, the Falcon was a nimble little minx.

Exactly. In that way, I think, the rules do a **** good job of showing what happens in the original trilogy. Unless you're in a **** good ship, and you're a good pilot, you don't try to dogfight with fighters, you try to weather the storm and blast them before they get through the shields.

As has been said here, "Gain the Advantage" is a dog-fighting maneuver intended primarily for high-speed fighters. You won't see it used very often by larger ships like a YT-1300.

Also, remember, that the pilot of the YT-1300 can try to outrun the Ties by starting a chase sequence to get away from the Ties. They could probably still try Gain the Advantage action, but they need to be in range for it to have any meaning. It depends if you consider the chase-related pilot check to be an Action for the round, or something separate. The chase sidebar seems vague on this, most likely on purpose.

I have a question about how you would handle the following situation:

YT-1300 with upgraded Ion-Turbine, so speed 4. Both turrets manned. Now the pilot spends his action on "Gaining the Advantage", does the effect of this apply to his gunners on the following round only, or after he made his check? In the same round as he performs the action?

Also, remember, that the pilot of the YT-1300 can try to outrun the Ties by starting a chase sequence to get away from the Ties. They could probably still try Gain the Advantage action, but they need to be in range for it to have any meaning. It depends if you consider the chase-related pilot check to be an Action for the round, or something separate. The chase sidebar seems vague on this, most likely on purpose.

I have a question about how you would handle the following situation:

YT-1300 with upgraded Ion-Turbine, so speed 4. Both turrets manned. Now the pilot spends his action on "Gaining the Advantage", does the effect of this apply to his gunners on the following round only, or after he made his check? In the same round as he performs the action?

It doesn't apply to the gunners at all. Check the wording of GtA: it specifies that "…the pilot ignores all penalties imposed…n addition, the pilot also chooses which defense zone he hits." Emphasis mine.

The benefits only apply to the pilot of the craft, not to any gunners.

-EF

Ah, I see. I confuse with the Stay on Target manoeuvre.

Still, this means that its pointless for a modified YT-1300 to do this, unless the you also add pilot-controlled weaponry. Rightyhooo!

Ah, I see. I confuse with the Stay on Target manoeuvre.

Still, this means that its pointless for a modified YT-1300 to do this, unless the you also add pilot-controlled weaponry. Rightyhooo!

It's still useful to cancel out the GtA of your enemy, so not a complete waste of an action!

-EF