You're way too hung up in irrelevant minutiae of a piece of fluff...

It isn't "fluff" it is listed in the actual description of the FSE specialization template; making part of the rule mechanic.

Anyway, since we aren't convincing each other on our respective POV I'm for calling it a draw.

It's a description, not a mechanic, but ok, fair enough draw.

It isn't "fluff" it is listed in the actual description of the FSE specialization template; making part of the rule mechanic.

Anyway, since we aren't convincing each other on our respective POV I'm for calling it a draw.

No, that part is most definitely a "fluff description" as it has ZERO bearing on the game mechanics. It's the same sort of descriptive "fluff" you'll find for all the other career/specializations up in the character creation section.

Must be used to lifepath character creation like that in Traveler or Cyberpunk.

Certainly, you could have a character born after the purges occurred, hence the "child hidden by friends and family." Which I guess is the type of character that is in the RAW. However, even in the description of FSE you have the possibility to have been a padawan near the end of his training, or even a freshly minted Jedi (ie with little experience) at the time of the 66 Purge. By mentioning them in the description the writers make them a viable option. And a Jedi (Padawan or minor jedi) would not have had access to other professions then the training offered at the Temple.

When I first heard about how FFG was running the Force type characters I, too, thought they would be born after the fall of the Republic, but what has been published in the book doesn't stand up to that premise. Instead the say that you can make either in the body of the work. Then they do a switch back in the mechanics and reverse everything.

In my mind what needs to be done now is; 1) Remove mention that the FSE characters could have been Jedi trained and escaped when the Purges started and say that all FSE were born afterward and that the Force manifested it self later in life (ie like Luke). 2) Change the FSE template so that it can be taken as a full profession from Character Generation.

A fully realized force user is not something we can make at this point since there are no FS starting careers (and shouldn't be in this era). Just using canon characters like Luke and Leia you can see how to grow a character into a real-deal force wielder but not out-of-the-box awesome.Going to EU sources there are many examples but my particular favorites are Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn or a character like Quinlan Vos, who is mostly canon with some funky EU elements.

Using the FSE in conjunction with normal character creation rules you can create any number of archetypal templates like: failed Jedi, scion of a hidden Jedi bloodline, unaware force attuned player, but in any case the player will have to make a sacrifice at creation or during their progression to gain access to the long term benefit of being a force user.

I personally will shy away from letting my players be survivors of the Clone Wars and Order 66 unless they can back it up with some very plausible reasoning.

I personally will shy away from letting my players be survivors of the Clone Wars and Order 66 unless they can back it up with some very plausible reasoning.

Heh, closest I got to this was playing a Clone Trooper (later generation Kamino-grown batch) that had wound up deserting from the Stormtrooper Corps. It only came up briefly in the campaign, but he did follow Order 66 when it was given.

But I agree with you, playing a Jedi refugee (aside from being a bit trite) probably isn't very plausible in this system, at least as things currently stand, unless you're going to introduce some significant house rules, at least with most people's conception of what sort of skill base a Jedi refugee should have (namely, lightsaber proficiency and better-than-average ability to use the Force).

It's a description, not a mechanic, but ok, fair enough draw.

Nice to see two of us can agree to a draw.

Actually, I haven't played Cyberpunk 2020 in a very long time, though I did try to start up a Judge Dredd game (Traveller) not that long ago. Either way my opinion here is not based on a life path system.

The lack of a lightsaber skill is one of the things I really like about the system as it is . Though, I can see a lot of players going to their GMs 7 or 8 sessions into a campaign and advocating that that since their PC has been using their lightsaber in just about every physical altercation they should be able to get better at the skill. But, then that is why it is mentioned in the book that the GM should feel free to create such a skill when needed.

"I personally will shy away from letting my players be survivors of the Clone Wars and Order 66 unless they can back it up with some very plausible reasoning."

Why? It is only 18 years in between the end of the Clone Wars and the beginning of the game. You would seriously decline a player who had an idea for a character who was a politician during the Fall of the Republic, or was a member of military unit during the Wars (a human member I mean.)?

Look, I fully understand and agree with the Spirit of the rules; all I am saying is the FFG will have to be very careful in the writing and editing process in the future to avoid printed information that could cause confusion. I am also very intrigued to see how they plan to allow a Player to get his FSE PC to the point of being a full Jedi knight in the upcoming releases. Because, personally, I see some problems there as well. But, we will have to wai and see.

Look, I fully understand and agree with the Spirit of the rules; all I am saying is the FFG will have to be very careful in the writing and editing process in the future to avoid printed information that could cause confusion. I am also very intrigued to see how they plan to allow a Player to get his FSE PC to the point of being a full Jedi knight in the upcoming releases. Because, personally, I see some problems there as well. But, we will have to wai and see.

Seems to me that you are the only one taking issue with the fluff. It doesn't seem to be confusing anyone else. So I don't know how much more circumspect they really need to be with something that is just meant to jumpstart the players with ideas.

As to future Core books, the will contain specs which can be taken much like the current ones. So a Bounty Hunter/FSE could go on to take a Jedi Initiate spec in AoR to further his character. Perhaps leading up to a Jedi Guardian spec in F&D eventually. Doesn't seem to difficult to imagine.

"As to future Core books, the will contain specs which can be taken much like the current ones. So a Bounty Hunter/FSE could go on to take a Jedi Initiate spec in AoR to further his character. Perhaps leading up to a Jedi Guardian spec in F&D eventually. Doesn't seem to difficult to imagine."

I guess this is where we get into a debate on deficiencies in training to become a Jedi Knight. For me if you have a FS character that has spent most of his life being something else (doctor, smuggler, etc.) him becoming a fully trained Jedi knight would be subject of narrative RPing throughout the campaign; not all of sudden buying a new spec. Perhaps, I am being too detail oriented again.

Also, recheck the thread there are one or two who have made the same point as I have.

"As to future Core books, the will contain specs which can be taken much like the current ones. So a Bounty Hunter/FSE could go on to take a Jedi Initiate spec in AoR to further his character. Perhaps leading up to a Jedi Guardian spec in F&D eventually. Doesn't seem to difficult to imagine."

I guess this is where we get into a debate on deficiencies in training to become a Jedi Knight. For me if you have a FS character that has spent most of his life being something else (doctor, smuggler, etc.) him becoming a fully trained Jedi knight would be subject of narrative RPing throughout the campaign; not all of sudden buying a new spec. Perhaps, I am being too detail oriented again.

Also, recheck the thread there are one or two who have made the same point as I have.

The in-game process of becoming a fully trained Jedi Knight, *absolutely* should be the subject of the narrative and RPing throughout the campaign. Mechanically, however, it will be represented by buying into the appropriate specialization(s), and buying the appropriate skills and talents.

A character doesn't suddenly become a Jedi Knight *because* he put XP into a new specialization from a new book. He puts the XP into that specialization because he's become a Jedi Knight. (RP driving mechanical choices, not mechanical choices dictating RP.)

I personally will shy away from letting my players be survivors of the Clone Wars and Order 66 unless they can back it up with some very plausible reasoning.

Heh, closest I got to this was playing a Clone Trooper (later generation Kamino-grown batch) that had wound up deserting from the Stormtrooper Corps. It only came up briefly in the campaign, but he did follow Order 66 when it was given.

But I agree with you, playing a Jedi refugee (aside from being a bit trite) probably isn't very plausible in this system, at least as things currently stand, unless you're going to introduce some significant house rules, at least with most people's conception of what sort of skill base a Jedi refugee should have (namely, lightsaber proficiency and better-than-average ability to use the Force).

I personally will shy away from letting my players be survivors of the Clone Wars and Order 66 unless they can back it up with some very plausible reasoning.

Heh, closest I got to this was playing a Clone Trooper (later generation Kamino-grown batch) that had wound up deserting from the Stormtrooper Corps. It only came up briefly in the campaign, but he did follow Order 66 when it was given.

But I agree with you, playing a Jedi refugee (aside from being a bit trite) probably isn't very plausible in this system, at least as things currently stand, unless you're going to introduce some significant house rules, at least with most people's conception of what sort of skill base a Jedi refugee should have (namely, lightsaber proficiency and better-than-average ability to use the Force).

I have a player who made a droid (scout) who is 80 years old and is being blackmailed for information that he has in regards to his former master who was a Protector of a certain sith artifact. This is as far as i will let my players take it though.

"As to future Core books, the will contain specs which can be taken much like the current ones. So a Bounty Hunter/FSE could go on to take a Jedi Initiate spec in AoR to further his character. Perhaps leading up to a Jedi Guardian spec in F&D eventually. Doesn't seem to difficult to imagine."

I guess this is where we get into a debate on deficiencies in training to become a Jedi Knight. For me if you have a FS character that has spent most of his life being something else (doctor, smuggler, etc.) him becoming a fully trained Jedi knight would be subject of narrative RPing throughout the campaign; not all of sudden buying a new spec. Perhaps, I am being too detail oriented again.

Also, recheck the thread there are one or two who have made the same point as I have.

The in-game process of becoming a fully trained Jedi Knight, *absolutely* should be the subject of the narrative and RPing throughout the campaign. Mechanically, however, it will be represented by buying into the appropriate specialization(s), and buying the appropriate skills and talents.

A character doesn't suddenly become a Jedi Knight *because* he put XP into a new specialization from a new book. He puts the XP into that specialization because he's become a Jedi Knight. (RP driving mechanical choices, not mechanical choices dictating RP.)

Ok, what would you tell a player who has been running a smuggler-FSE, has been playing as a smuggler, made no mention of his Force heritage (other then using the odd force power now and then) and then suddenly (when it comes out) takes the Jedi Initiate (or whatever they will call it) Spec to become a Jedi Knight?

Also, how do you RP a PC getting the proper training without a teacher. Again, going with the "fluff" of the universe, most people who train themselves usually become a slave to the Dark Side.

"As to future Core books, the will contain specs which can be taken much like the current ones. So a Bounty Hunter/FSE could go on to take a Jedi Initiate spec in AoR to further his character. Perhaps leading up to a Jedi Guardian spec in F&D eventually. Doesn't seem to difficult to imagine."

I guess this is where we get into a debate on deficiencies in training to become a Jedi Knight. For me if you have a FS character that has spent most of his life being something else (doctor, smuggler, etc.) him becoming a fully trained Jedi knight would be subject of narrative RPing throughout the campaign; not all of sudden buying a new spec. Perhaps, I am being too detail oriented again.

Also, recheck the thread there are one or two who have made the same point as I have.

The in-game process of becoming a fully trained Jedi Knight, *absolutely* should be the subject of the narrative and RPing throughout the campaign. Mechanically, however, it will be represented by buying into the appropriate specialization(s), and buying the appropriate skills and talents.

A character doesn't suddenly become a Jedi Knight *because* he put XP into a new specialization from a new book. He puts the XP into that specialization because he's become a Jedi Knight. (RP driving mechanical choices, not mechanical choices dictating RP.)

Ok, what would you tell a player who has been running a smuggler-FSE, has been playing as a smuggler, made no mention of his Force heritage (other then using the odd force power now and then) and then suddenly (when it comes out) takes the Jedi Initiate (or whatever they will call it) Spec to become a Jedi Knight?

Also, how do you RP a PC getting the proper training without a teacher. Again, going with the "fluff" of the universe, most people who train themselves usually become a slave to the Dark Side.

The same thing I'd tell him if he'd been running a purely pacifist doctor, and he suddenly decided to buy into the Assassin spec with no prior indication of even *wanting* to harm people. I'd say, "What happened? Why the sudden change in character concept?", then we'd have a discussion about what's going on, and if it made sense, I'd say, "Ok, sounds good." If not, I'd recommend at the very least playing up the whole 'exploring the Force' or 'wanting to kill things' angle a bit before going that route.

Rule 2 for a GM: Just because it's in a book, that doesn't mean you have to let your players use it.

Rule 3 for a GM: Just because you don't think it makes sense for a character, doesn't mean the *player* doesn't have a perfectly valid reason, if you just take the time to ask.

Even beyond that, it's not like just buying into a new specialization immediately gives you a whole bunch of new abilities. It just gives you *access* to them. It may be that buying into the new spec signals the player's intention to *start* focusing on that aspect of things.

Get ready GMs for a lot of arguing with players. Upholding the integrity of the story and RP'ing can be a daunting/challenging job. Players loathe being told 'no' but sometimes it is necessary.

This is one reason this is quite possibly my LEAST favorite era to game in the Star Wars timeline. I much prefer the Old Republic era. I really hope FFG addresses whether they will officially support by way of game materials playing this game in different eras or if we have to cobble it all together based on what we are given for this one particular epoch in Star Wars history.

Also, how do you RP a PC getting the proper training without a teacher. Again, going with the "fluff" of the universe, most people who train themselves usually become a slave to the Dark Side.

Same way that anyone would learn to any skill without a teacher.

Books, a training hologram, trial and error. Yes, many would succumb to the Dark Side, but while they have cookies they do not have an automatic brainwashing technique. It is just easier, and the player would have to be very careful to train his emotions.

That said, what if he found his own personal Yoda out in the hinterlands? Or formed a self-help group with other FSE he found? I can think of a lot of possible story ideas and chronicle settings in that desire of a PC. It won't be quick and clean, but heck...where is the fun in that?

"Yes, many would succumb to the Dark Side, but while they have cookies they do not have an automatic brainwashing technique. It is just easier, and the player would have to be very careful to train his emotions."

Ok, Wh...what did you just say? Cookies and brainwashing...?

I played a jedi master in the Dawn of Defiance campaign for Star Wars Saga Edition. I played him from 1-20 all the way through the campaign. This past campaign took place during the Rise of the Empire era. Now that this game takes place in the Rebellion era I plan on playing the son or maybe just student of my original character from Saga Edition that learned what he could from my original character and has his holocron and a basic lightsaber.

This is one reason this is quite possibly my LEAST favorite era to game in the Star Wars timeline. I much prefer the Old Republic era.

Me too, but I don't see the problem. Fact is of the trillions of people in the universe, most would never encounter a Jedi or Sith in their entire lives, no matter what era. The game is set on the fringes of society, which always exist. Even in the middle of a galactic war people need things smuggled, stolen, transported, etc.

The in-game process of becoming a fully trained Jedi Knight, *absolutely* should be the subject of the narrative and RPing throughout the campaign. Mechanically, however, it will be represented by buying into the appropriate specialization(s), and buying the appropriate skills and talents.

A character doesn't suddenly become a Jedi Knight *because* he put XP into a new specialization from a new book. He puts the XP into that specialization because he's become a Jedi Knight. (RP driving mechanical choices, not mechanical choices dictating RP.)

One of my main issues with d20 RCR ... Jedi [insert type] level 7 = Jedi Knight (at least as I remember it)...

This system allows for different concepts that does not - in the same way - require a "clean slate" story, this system allows for more of a background in my opinion.

"Yes, many would succumb to the Dark Side, but while they have cookies they do not have an automatic brainwashing technique. It is just easier, and the player would have to be very careful to train his emotions."

Ok, Wh...what did you just say? Cookies and brainwashing...?

It is a common quote amongst sci-fi fans around here.

"Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies"

Sorry, I presumed it was ubiquitous.

I asked this in another thread but this one seems to have way more info. How does one become an fse? Do you purchase a skill from the tree and thats it? Also for a person to be fse can they spend their entire starting experience on fse?

One could spend all their starting XP on the FSE spec and talents, but remember that characteristics (i.e. brawn, agility, etc.) can only be increased directly through XP at character creation. You can use XP on the FSE stuff at anytime.

I asked this in another thread but this one seems to have way more info. How does one become an fse? Do you purchase a skill from the tree and thats it? Also for a person to be fse can they spend their entire starting experience on fse?

Right now, the only way to become a Force-Sensitive is to purchase the Force Sensitive Exile specialization, which grants you a Force Rating of 1 and thus makes you Force-Sensitive.