I mean seriously, this is quite beyond joke to compare the two Leadership allies. Ok, one can in his mind form an idea that one character is stronger than another, but in the game, this shouldn't be just that. I understand equality will not always be possible, but making it different is what the goal should be.

Faramir and Denethor have all the same stats, save willpower. Denethor's is a point greater, One would then think, perhaps Faramir's ability be a notch stronger than Denethor's. What one gets, however, is a very good ability on one hand, and a totally terrible one on the other, not an ability, a great disability in fact. I still have a hard time to grasp this mischief, was there a misprint? I'm afraid not.

I mean Faramir should almost always find three characters to boost their willpower, you wouldn't put him in a deck where he wouldn't, right? So at the very least he's as good a willpower booster as Denethor's at his very best. Plus, Faramir has to be neither exhausted nor committed to the quest which is beneficial in so many instances (Necromancer's Reach, Blocking Wargs).

Is this really what the designers are trying to tell us? That one of the major characters in the books just sucks when compared to his son? If they believe that, I think there would be a better way to show it, perhaps by introducing a specific treachery or condition in some scenario.

Denethor is not a fighter he is a ruler. And in the time of book he already quite old man.... so he is a good quester but he has he flaws since he is really quickly get disscourage (Damage on heroes). He is really thematic. Same as his lore hero version

there is no9 theme in this game, get that in your head. the theme stops at the art and the names.If you go looking for logical comparisons to the source you will have all sorta of problems. eagles flying in the mines Moria for example. This game is more abstract than thematic, and imo this is the way to go.. sacrificing gameplay for theme is a bad bad idea.

Well, any response is better than none I suppose, but neither of you really address the topic of this thread.

Glaurung, whilst I agree that Denethor is a ruler, it doesn't justify him being a very poor ally - in comparison with Faramir (at the very least). More so, I believe the ally version depicts a younger, and certainly more active Denethor than the hero version.

Boored, thematic or not, I was talking about how useless the card is, in comparison to Faramir (at the very least). I agree a game doesn't need to be thematically perfect, using Eagles in Moria is quite fine with me, for instance, but when I get two ally cards of the same sphere and cost, I do not like to see one of them being so obviously better than the other.

there is no9 theme in this game, get that in your head. the theme stops at the art and the names.If you go looking for logical comparisons to the source you will have all sorta of problems. eagles flying in the mines Moria for example. This game is more abstract than thematic, and imo this is the way to go.. sacrificing gameplay for theme is a bad bad idea.

As you say, that's your opinion. And who are you? Not somebody who's opinion means more than others. So don't pick on those who like the thematic in this game. It might not be as effective but sacrifice gameplay over thematic isn't a bad bad idea. It's just another approach. Not better or worse than any other take on the game. People can playboy the way they like without having to be insulted. Try and get THAT in YOUR head!

@lleimmoen

um.. am I missing something here... Are you talkign about a new Faramir, or the one in core? I do not remember seeing a new Faramir.

I am puzzled as well. Mainly because of the OP's talking about Faramir not needing to be exhausted, when he in fact has to exhaust to provide his willpower boost.

http://www.lotrlcg.com/Card/Focus/1014

also his boost affects others, not himself AND the core Farimier is a total boss.. as in super powerful

I don't think you can use Faramir as a base to create new 4 cost heroes. Faramir is one of the best cards there is, I would even say it is overpowered. The new Denethor is fine as it is. It's created for a mono leadership deck obviously, as you want to play it as early as posible. It also combos nicely with "Sneak Attack". If his WP goes low you still have a more than average defender, furthermore he can quest when you have the "siege" keyword.

I think the developers are doing fine with the new player cards in general, and Denethor is a good example how to create a card that requires optimal gameplay to be useful.

I am puzzled as well. Mainly because of the OP's talking about Faramir not needing to be exhausted, when he in fact has to exhaust to provide his willpower boost.

http://www.lotrlcg.com/Card/Focus/1014

I think Illeimmoen was talking about nasty treachery effects like "Blocked by Wargs" not effecting Faramir. I think he is well aware that Faramir has to be exhausted to trigger his effect.

I am puzzled as well. Mainly because of the OP's talking about Faramir not needing to be exhausted, when he in fact has to exhaust to provide his willpower boost.

http://www.lotrlcg.com/Card/Focus/1014

I will try and un-puzzle you. For Faramir (core set) to boost the willpower of other characters, he needs not to be exhausted during the staging (thus he avoids getting hit by Necromancer's Reach, for instance). He can exhaust after the encounter cards have been revealed.

Also, he needs not to commit to the quest in order to boost willpower, thus he avoids the getting hit by Blocking Wargs, for instance.

I don't think you can use Faramir as a base to create new 4 cost heroes. Faramir is one of the best cards there is, I would even say it is overpowered. The new Denethor is fine as it is. It's created for a mono leadership deck obviously, as you want to play it as early as posible. It also combos nicely with "Sneak Attack". If his WP goes low you still have a more than average defender, furthermore he can quest when you have the "siege" keyword.

I think the developers are doing fine with the new player cards in general, and Denethor is a good example how to create a card that requires optimal gameplay to be useful.

Hmm, I only partly agree. As I said, of course not every card needs to be powerful in every situation. But one would have to think very hard to find a use for the ally Denethor, or in other words, I cannot think of any practical situation when the ally version of Faramir would be inferior to Denethor. I don't mind getting cards that cannot do much, I have nothing against the Love of Tales, for example, although I have never put it into a good use. But why make an ally like Denethor when there's just nothing he can do better than Faramir? If he had the same attributes as the hero version, one could easily consider him for defence, but he doesn't.

lots of things to reply to here....

firstly the topic at hand. i agree that denethor is a very poor card. i can actually see the themeatic 'reasons' for his card text....the worse things look to him, the worse his willpower is.

...however, this card is just too much. i cannot think, not counting any super powerful gondor power card in the future, of any deck i would put him in.

this is actually strange because i love getting not-so-powerful cards that are heavy on the theme side. it allows me to include them in weaker decks for the easy quests...

now onto theme. i do not wish to derail a thread that is not mine...and neither do i want to uphold my own 'cliche' by defend what im know throughout the forum to love... however i must point out the following cards:

Strider - resets threat ...why? - because he comes to the 4 hobbits aid in bree

Lore Denethor - card peeks...why? - becuase he has a palantir

Frodo- cancels damage...why? because he cheats death how many times?

Eowyn- high willpower+increase...why? because she wasnt prepared to watch her people die without her being one of them

Boromir- self sacrifice ability...obvious

Gandalf- comes in and out of the game....he is flying (sometimes literally) around middle earth trying to save everyone during the war of the ring

Good Meal- allows you to play events for less....people travel better after a good meal

Thorin- i actually remember the designer talking about how he wanted thorin powerful but only once he had enough followers...showing his stubborn ways.

i can do that with almost any card in this game, save perhaps a few. denethor, whilst being one i can do this with, is still dissapointing becuase his ability is so terrribly imbalanced against his stats

in general however the designers do a great job of getting the card's feel correct...and coming from someone who has such high standards of lore...then this is a great compliment

now onto denethor- i would have least have expected him either

-1 cost less

-2 stat increases across his stats

then perhaps i would. what is worst is that this is the last time we shall see denethor...certainly until the return of the king saga packs which is years away. Also i am not fond of the lore denethor either....so it looks as if denethor wont feature much in my playing.

rich

I am puzzled as well. Mainly because of the OP's talking about Faramir not needing to be exhausted, when he in fact has to exhaust to provide his willpower boost.

http://www.lotrlcg.com/Card/Focus/1014

I will try and un-puzzle you. For Faramir (core set) to boost the willpower of other characters, he needs not to be exhausted during the staging (thus he avoids getting hit by Necromancer's Reach, for instance). He can exhaust after the encounter cards have been revealed.

Also, he needs not to commit to the quest in order to boost willpower, thus he avoids the getting hit by Blocking Wargs, for instance.

riiight... lol..I thought you were saying the new denathor makes faramir unplayable. Not the otherway around. Ok.. this thread is starting to make sense!

yeah I agree. There is little reason to run this card |INSTEAD of faramir. But why are they in competition. I guess the real question is why not run both? a 4 cost 4 will is not that bad.. most 3 will are 5 cost and leader has hardly any high will cards, let alone one that is 4 cost for 3... in fact there are hardly any unless you are talkign about Dain and other dwarfs even so. 4 cost 3 will 4 with faramir isn't exactly a "bad" card if you looking for will in general, and VERY good for leadership.

Totally agree with boored's last post. As for Lore Denethor, I love him...play him in an encounter control deck and you will almost always know what's coming, then if you don't like it, you just change it....

I like this new Denethor, his weakness is really thematic which is great. What we're seeing here is just the difference between Boromir style and Bilbo style players.

Also if you think about his stats without bias, they're just as good as most heroes, as they point out in the Team Covenant video. Maybe we're expecting too much from our allies...

while a direct comparison obviously shows Denethor as the weaker card; i tend to agree with boored's last post that there is no need to but them in direct comparison. Used together they are a very strong questing tandem in leadership decks...and despite their high cost if there is one sphere where this doesnt matter its leadership

plus once the faramir hero we all know is coming is released it just gives us options having both a hero and ally version of both characters

so sure i'm bummed that his "ability" isnt better but i'm happy to have the new cards to play with and will try to find good situations for him

lleimmoen, I think you should take into consideration the fact that they make the cycles as a whole, not necessarily as separate packs, and considering that we will soon get Visionary Leadership, which as we all hope will give all Gondor characters +1 willpower, then that would make Denethor a lot more playable than he is now. Sorry if this was already said. I didn't read the whole thread.

Just used them both in a gondor themed deck to take on encounter at amon din...worked wonderfully as my leadership/tactics deck was in dire need of will power

AND if you don't want him to be discarded, just get a copy of Sword that was Broken on Aragorn, and there you have it. No matter how hard you try to get four heroes damaged, it's just not gonna happen.

Glad most of you guys like him, in a way. I've never said he was unplayable, I only said he's terrible in comparison to Faramir. And the comparison makes sense because they're both Leadership 4-cost unique allies with 1 attack, 2 defence, 3 hit points. I get it that they may work together but I think I'll always prefer cheap allies to cooperate with Faramir. One can buy a lot for 4 resources, even with Leadership, though of course the cost of 4 is much more affordable within the sphere.

He's still not that good in my opinion, but having another high willpower character in leadership is always good.

I would have preferred him to be more extreme and cost 5. (I'd have liked him to be willpower 5 but lose 2 per damaged hero - with a cost of 5). Alternatively I'd like him to be just as he is with willpower 4. I've always seen him as being one of the most strong willed characters (although he contended with greater forces and failed of course). However willpower 4 would lose the nice effect of having him abandon you, which is probably worth him being how he is.

I don't think he's in competition at at all with ally Faramir - ally Faramir gives you good willpower if you want a lot of weak allies (he's amazing in that context, obviously far better) this new Denethor ally gives you good willpower if you want to focus on heroes (items/buffs/artifacts) and won't have that many weak allies, arguably Faramir is still likely to give you +3 or more. but Denethor does have the advantage of being able to give you that willpower even if allies are killed off. Overall Faramir is more versatile and thus a "better" card, but I think they are different enough that you'd probably want both and may pick Denethor first occasionally.

For example; If you want a situation where he seems better than his son- how about a secrecy deck? With two heroes he can never be discarded from damaged heroes; with less heroes the boost from Faramir isn't as good however Denthor still gives 3 wp.

Forget theme

a 4 cost card should be directly comparable to a 4 cost card.

That's called game design

Denethor ally can be good in Outlands deck - Denethor with Sword Of Morthond can even have 7 willpower, 5 attack, 6 defense, and 7 HP.

But Framir can be better with Sword Of Morthond - maybe can have max 6 willpower but have great ability.