Am I missing something or is this spell way too powerful? It's just seems like an unfair advantage for the investigators over the ancient one. I think that, in order to be balanced, you only remove a doom token for each success you rolled on the spell check. For example, if you discard a gate trophy and two monster trophies but only roll one success, only one doom token would be removed. If you rolled three or more, than three would be removed. Opinions? thoughts? objections? agreements?

But look at the trade-off to make it happen: the casting modifier is equal to the number of trophies spent, and the sanity cost is too. Try too hard, and you won't even pass the test. if you can still pass the test, you'll end up insane when the Ancient One awakens, meaning that investigator would be devoured. Otherwise, if you keep it small, you'll survive the casting and such, but won't have that huge an advantage over the AO.

kroen said:

I agree on this notion of # of successes and have brought it up before.

Thorgrim: Remember there is a Kingsport skill that allows you to exhaust it to automatically add one success to a spell check? If you have that skill, it will not matter how difficult you make the casting modifier, as it will be automatically passed. Plus, there is that rather common Unique Item from the Kingsport expansion, Crystal of the Elder Things, that allows you to absorb the entire casting cost of a spell. Get these two cards together, and you can essentially remove doom tokens equal to the trophies you discard, while still remaining alive to enter battle. Get them early enough, and this can be your entire strategy—collect enough trophies, and you can automatically win.

This spell NEEDS to be errataed, for kroen's and my recommendation—more than any other item—for this reason.

Tibs said:

Funny how only things KH make the spell "broken" .

I will say I've used the spell exactly once. That was in a game vs Glaaki where I had 2 investigators with Broken Hand. Even though Terror level wasn't high, I knew it would be a really nasty final combat. Also, don't think I had more than 2 seals in place. So had Gloria cast CAO with I think 3 trophies. That proved just enough, as Terror was at 9 when the final success was scored.

Your right this spell is broken if allot of "IF's" are covered. So then its not broken...

If you get this 1/40 chance skill, if you get this 1/10 chance unique item, if you have the trophie to spend, etc

I'm not saying it doesn't have its uses, I just happen to think that it could have been more well thought out in regards to casting difficulty for a spell that ends the game.

And I will agree with you that Kingsport has had many, many rule and situation oversights. But you should still get it someday, sir!!!

Dam said:

::Rolls eyes and gnashes teeth while having a seizure::

MrsGamura said:

And IF Lily Chen is used as originally designed, or
IF she can heal more than one point per round with her sliders, and
IF her focus doesn't permanently drop below 2, and
IF she doesn't get stuck with fewer than 4 dice for a combat check, and
IF Yig awakens while she is not cursed, and
IF you don't use epic battle, then it is impossible to lose final combat.

Just because there are a lot of IFs lined up does not make something absolved from being broken. Sure you need to get the right components together with Call Ancient One, but if you do, and you get enough trophies together (which should not be hard), you can cast the spell and win the game, with no risk of failure or other penalty. That is not thematically plausible or mechanically sound. And all the spell had to be to avoid this was to require X successes instead of a measly -X modifier.

In fact, you don't really need the Ancient Language skill so much, because just spending clues will give you chances to get the one success you need, no matter how bad the modifier is.

Call Ancient One, Crystal of the Elder Things, a bunch of trophies, and the AL skill OR a modest number of clues for a guaranteed win by final combat? THAT is indeed broken.

If FFG has any sense they will errata it in IH. Here's the wording it should have:

Discard X monster and/or gate trophies, then cast and discard this spell to immediately awaken the Ancient One. Then, remove X doom token from its doom track, but not more than the number of successes you rolled on the spell check.

Easy, clean, and simple. They can even remove the -X modifier and turn it into a +0.

kroen said:

I concur 100%. And while they're at it, they can clarify that Lily Chen can gain no more than one point per turn of sanity or stamina—but not both—by use of her sliders.

• And the two KH allies that allow you to spend focus to heal sanity/stamina—they need to say "discard if the AO awakens." They were careful to add these to the DH allies that prevent damage, so that you can't have an impossible-to-lose final combat situation like I described above.

• If you use Tulzscha and Abhoth together, no cultists are removed from the cup, as per Tulszha's worshipper ability.

• And while they're at it, Daisy shouldn't be able to use her spell-sanity-cost-reduction ability more than once per turn. I don't care about the tome ability though.

Wow. I never thought of it before... the Dark Pharaoh expansion is infamous for having confusing and missing wording, but Kingsport actually has the largest number of broken cards and abilities!

Tibs said:

Yay, another one who sees the truth.

But watch out for Avi !

Dam said:

I am aware of your hilarious fued. But don't get me wrong—in the grand scheme of things that Kingsport has to offer, these issues are relatively minor. I am not sorry that I acquired Kingsport—and I do not regard Wendy or Daisy with no more enthusiasm as I would with any other investigator.

If anything, the best solution to this Call Ancient One problem, short of getting an official update, is just to remove it from the spell deck, permanently. I considered doing this before I got the BG expansion, but fell back upon my completist ways. Those ways may be changing.
..

kroen said:

No. Broken. Clue tokens. Agh.

Tibs said:

::Shrug:: I'm thinking about errattaing CallAO so that its Sanity Cost is Unpreventable and perhaps also that the spell fizzles if you go insane while casting it (which would mean that it would be capped at 5-6 doom token damage). Perhaps also clue tokens should not be allowed for casting this.

By the way, what happens if you fail to cast the spell? Do you still have to discard the trophies and is it discarded on a failure? Bleh... It's a pretty annoying thing, but it's only one spell in the entire spell deck, so I just try to pretend it doesn't exist— like Dam ;'D

I'm a bit tempted to just take it out of the deck too... But... But... ;.(

Tibs said:

See, I don't have Kingsport yet, and probably won't for a while the way the Australian dollar is. To buy Kingsport now would cost me more than I payed for the base game, so I will let it go until its worth my time. This unfortunately counts for Innsmouth when it is released as well.

Avi_dreader said:

less broken than it is right now...

kroen said:

Right, exactly. You'd be spending clue tokens for each success you wanted to get, rather than just one success total. It wouldn't be broken in this case, because you'd have to have a LOT of clue tokens to do a lot of damage, instead of just 3 or so.

Precisely. As it right now, you can, in theory, stack 10-13 monster and/or gate trophies, a few clue tokens, cast the spell, go insane and win the game. Try doing that when you need 10-13 successes...

When I saw this card and wondered how the X worked, the obvious question to come to mind was, "If you go insane while casting it, does your spell go off anyway?" I'm not sure if there is an official ruling on this. There aren't that many spells out there where it matters, so I don't think I've ever seen the situation. In this case, however, I am definitely of the opinion that you can't go insane and finish casting Call Ancient One. That's getting too much help. As a result, the most you could possibly remove would be 8 (7 Sanity, Duke, Third Eye?), and usually much less (barring the aforementioned item from Kingsport, which is a problem here).

Spell Casting and going Insane is the same as with an Elder Sign and going Unconscious/Insane. The Spell still works providing whatever effect, assuming you pass the check, then Insane takes effect.
If you are in Combat, the Combat Ends when you go Insane.

I believe there is an official ruling on that in the FAQ that supports the above.

flamethrower49 said:

Wrong.

You need @ 10-14 trophies to cast Call AO and the spell its self!

The Lily Chen "If" argument doesn't really work because she's stand alone ie doesn't need any other cards to be broken...

plus this spell would even be more worthless should make it read, "Kill you score to fight the AO and spend all you clue tokens."

MrsGamura said:

What do you mean? I just showed that Lily would have to be under specific circumstances to be considered "broken" in the same way you note a bunch of circumstances to consider CtAO "broken." The fact is, if there is a condition where there is a sure way to kill the AO in combat (in CtAO's case, without having combat), no matter how remote, then there is a problem.

Also: who really cares about score, outside of the League? You might as well note that Shub, Yog, and Tsathoggua are "score suckers" if you're worried about trophies with regards to final battle.

kroen said:

If they're going to errata a card, they should fix it, not just mildly. ::Sigh:: I wonder whose idea it was to print that card...

kroen said:

And Mandy's reroll :3