I have 2 questions concerning the hero "Dunhere" with an "Unexpected Courage" attached:

1. Is it possible for Dunhere to attack the same enemy in the staging area twice using the unexpected courage to ready in between? I am unsure because the rule book says each enemy may only be the target of one attack each round whereas the official FAQ (part 1.11) says that whenever a character accomplishes to ready he may attack the same target again…

2. But if FAQ is right, are those follow up attacks to be added together (as in the rule book whenever more characters attack the same enemy) enabling him to overcome the enemy armor easier thus counting the armor only once? Or does each attack subtract the armor individually?

Or more simple: which one is the correct way?

Dunhere attacks in the staging area (= attack 3) the same enemy (armor 2) twice with readying in between…

a) (3 - 2) + (3 - 2) = 2 damage done

b) (3 + 3) - 2 = 4 damage done

Thank you!

You can only declare an attack against each enemy once per round, per player.

The confusion comes because there is a distinction between player and character .

Each player may declare an attack against one enemy once per round (no exceptions).

Each character can attack an enemy as many times as the attack can be legally declared and that character is in a Ready state (in other words, there is no written limit on the number of attacks that a character can participate in, even against the same enemy).

Confused yet? Here are examples:

-One player game. Dunhere has Unexpected Courage (UC) and there is a Dol Guldur Beastmaster (DGM)in the staging area. In this scenario, Dunhere can only attack once, because the player is only allowed to declare one attack against DGM.

-Two player game. Dunhere has UC and there is a DGM in the staging area. Each player may declare one attack against DGM. However, there is no legal way for Dunhere to participate in an attack declared by player 2, so Dunhere can only attack once.

-Two player game. Dunhere has UC and there is a DGM in the staging area. Player 1 has the card Desperate Alliance . Player 1 may declare an attack against DGM, then use UC to ready Dunhere. Player 1 then plays Desperate Alliance to give control of Dunhere to Player 2. Player 2 may now legally declare an attack against DGM and use Dunhere, now under his control, for that attack. Note that this attack is completely separate from Player 1's attack (you still have to count DGM's full shield value -- discrete attacks are not cumulative like that, per your question).

This is also an important concept for characters with the Ranged keyword.

-Two player game. Legolas has UC. There is a DGM engaged with Player 2. Player 1 declares an attack against LGM and exhausts Legolas to attack him via the Ranged keyword. Player 1 uses UC to ready Legolas. Player 2 now declares an attack against DGM and exhausts a hero (Aragorn, for example). Player 1 may exhaust Legolas and participate in this attack via the Ranged keyword. It's legal because both players only declared 1 attack (when Legolas participates in Player 2's attack, Player 1 is not considered to have 'declared' the attack. "Participating" in attacks is something that characters do; "declaring" attacks is something that players do).

Hope that clarifies a bit. But probably just made it more confusing! Feel free to follow with more questions and I'll try to muck it up even more.

that is actually the clearest anyone has ever put that rule….nice one!

rich

I agree completely with Rich… I finally know at least one use for Desperate Alliance!

legolas18 said:

yeah- for some reason i never realised you could use desperate alliance that way…….

rich

Yeah, I see Desperate Alliance as an event that bestows a sort of Ranged or Sentinel on a hero until the end of the phase (and lets you spend their money if you can!).

You can only declare an attack against each enemy once per round, per player.

The confusion comes because there is a distinction between player and character .

Each player may declare an attack against one enemy once per round (no exceptions).

Each character can attack an enemy as many times as the attack can be legally declared and that character is in a Ready state (in other words, there is no written limit on the number of attacks that a character can participate in, even against the same enemy).

Confused yet? Here are examples:

-One player game. Dunhere has Unexpected Courage (UC) and there is a Dol Guldur Beastmaster (DGM)in the staging area. In this scenario, Dunhere can only attack once, because the player is only allowed to declare one attack against DGM.

-Two player game. Dunhere has UC and there is a DGM in the staging area. Each player may declare one attack against DGM. However, there is no legal way for Dunhere to participate in an attack declared by player 2, so Dunhere can only attack once.

-Two player game. Dunhere has UC and there is a DGM in the staging area. Player 1 has the card Desperate Alliance . Player 1 may declare an attack against DGM, then use UC to ready Dunhere. Player 1 then plays Desperate Alliance to give control of Dunhere to Player 2. Player 2 may now legally declare an attack against DGM and use Dunhere, now under his control, for that attack. Note that this attack is completely separate from Player 1's attack (you still have to count DGM's full shield value -- discrete attacks are not cumulative like that, per your question).

This is also an important concept for characters with the Ranged keyword.

-Two player game. Legolas has UC. There is a DGM engaged with Player 2. Player 1 declares an attack against LGM and exhausts Legolas to attack him via the Ranged keyword. Player 1 uses UC to ready Legolas. Player 2 now declares an attack against DGM and exhausts a hero (Aragorn, for example). Player 1 may exhaust Legolas and participate in this attack via the Ranged keyword. It's legal because both players only declared 1 attack (when Legolas participates in Player 2's attack, Player 1 is not considered to have 'declared' the attack. "Participating" in attacks is something that characters do; "declaring" attacks is something that players do).

Hope that clarifies a bit. But probably just made it more confusing! Feel free to follow with more questions and I'll try to muck it up even more.

This is indeed the best explanation I have come across so far. But I still don't understand why this quote from the FAQ ( http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/lotr-lcg/support/lotr-lcg-faq-low-res.pdf ) makes any sense.

You can only declare an attack against each enemy once per round, per player.

The confusion comes because there is a distinction between player and character .

Each player may declare an attack against one enemy once per round (no exceptions).

Each character can attack an enemy as many times as the attack can be legally declared and that character is in a Ready state (in other words, there is no written limit on the number of attacks that a character can participate in, even against the same enemy).

Confused yet? Here are examples:

-One player game. Dunhere has Unexpected Courage (UC) and there is a Dol Guldur Beastmaster (DGM)in the staging area. In this scenario, Dunhere can only attack once, because the player is only allowed to declare one attack against DGM.

-Two player game. Dunhere has UC and there is a DGM in the staging area. Each player may declare one attack against DGM. However, there is no legal way for Dunhere to participate in an attack declared by player 2, so Dunhere can only attack once.

-Two player game. Dunhere has UC and there is a DGM in the staging area. Player 1 has the card Desperate Alliance . Player 1 may declare an attack against DGM, then use UC to ready Dunhere. Player 1 then plays Desperate Alliance to give control of Dunhere to Player 2. Player 2 may now legally declare an attack against DGM and use Dunhere, now under his control, for that attack. Note that this attack is completely separate from Player 1's attack (you still have to count DGM's full shield value -- discrete attacks are not cumulative like that, per your question).

This is also an important concept for characters with the Ranged keyword.

-Two player game. Legolas has UC. There is a DGM engaged with Player 2. Player 1 declares an attack against LGM and exhausts Legolas to attack him via the Ranged keyword. Player 1 uses UC to ready Legolas. Player 2 now declares an attack against DGM and exhausts a hero (Aragorn, for example). Player 1 may exhaust Legolas and participate in this attack via the Ranged keyword. It's legal because both players only declared 1 attack (when Legolas participates in Player 2's attack, Player 1 is not considered to have 'declared' the attack. "Participating" in attacks is something that characters do; "declaring" attacks is something that players do).

Hope that clarifies a bit. But probably just made it more confusing! Feel free to follow with more questions and I'll try to muck it up even more.

Wow so I was aware of all of this except for the fact that the same character CAN attack the same enemy twice in the one turn (thereby a way around the fact each player can only declare one attack against each engaged enemy) so long as each attack is initiated by a different player and that character either swaps controller or has ranged.

Indeed. What do you think about the situation the FAQ describes? (See my above post.)

Version of FAQ that opens after following the link you provided (1.1) is very old and in the latest version (1.6) this example is no longer printed.

Regarding Quick Strike: effect of this card gives you additional attack that can be declared beyond the standard attack declaration, which is the framework effect of the game. But no other character can participate in such attack. But Kris could declare an attack with Legolas later, when it come his turn to declare attacks.

The situation in the faq point out that there is no limit in how many time a character can participate in others declared attack.

Quick Strike is not the standard attack. Every card that makes a character declares an attack does not count in the limit.

Be carefull though, in the last situation described by grandspleen, all could go wrong if :

- player 2 has no one ready to declare an attack. Legolas cannot participate without some character of player 2 initiating an attack.

- when player 1 use Legolas to declare an attack on player 2's engaged ennemies, player 2 cannot participate in the attack, even with ranged character, because the enemy is not engaged with another player from his point of view.

Version of FAQ that opens after following the link you provided (1.1) is very old and in the latest version (1.6) this example is no longer printed.

True; but is that because it was wrong?

Regarding Quick Strike: effect of this card gives you additional attack that can be declared beyond the standard attack declaration, which is the framework effect of the game.

How do we know that this additional attack overrides the limit of one declared attack per player per enemy?

The situation in the faq point out that there is no limit in how many time a character can participate in others declared attack.

BUT, in this situation, the player named Tom declares a second attack against the same enemy twice in one round. Quick Attack allows Aragorn to attack someone again, obviously. (And Kris's Legolas can attack the Hill Troll again because his first attack on it was an assist, not a declared attack on the enemy.) But why can Tom have Aragorn attack the same enemy with his second attack?

Aragorn can attack again the same enemy because that attack from Quick Strike is from card effect .

Also, this example is not wrong, but unclear and not accurate and maybe that's because it was deleted from naxt versions of FAQ.

Aragorn can attack again the same enemy because that attack from Quick Strike is from card effect .

I'm not sure why you would interpret Quick Strike that way, though. Quick Strike says that the character is readied and immediately declared an attacker against any eligible enemy target. It doesn't say that Aragorn can attack the same enemy that his player has already declared an attack against. Ordinarily, declaring an attack on an enemy makes it ineligible for a second attack, and I don't see why Quick Strike would override that. I interpret the card effect to mean that Aragorn is readied and declared an attacker against an eligible enemy target, i.e. one that is engaged but that Aragorn's controlling player has not yet declared an attack against. Why should I be interpreting it differently?

There was official game designer's explanation of Quick Strike card. You can find it in a discussion following that card @CardGameDB:

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-card-spoiler/_/core/quick-strike-core

I saw that thread and just posted in it. But notice that the game designer is talking about the reverse situation: using Quick Strike BEFORE the standard attack. The developer, Nate, said that Quick Strike does not "eliminate" the standard attack when it comes first. But what about the reverse? Does the standard attack "eliminate" that enemy from eligibility for Quick Strike since Quick Strike specifies that the enemy must be eligible?

I think that order would not matter in this case. Moreover we have the Golden Rule:

If the game text of a card contradicts the text of this
rulebook, the text on the card takes precedence.

But to be 100% sure I think that we can ask Caleb on this.

There are also threads @BGG:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/11011329

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/788653/1-attack-enemy-limitation-and-quick-strike

I'm worried that the order does matter, because while the card cannot make an enemy ineligible (per Nate's response), the normal attack can make an enemy ineligible, and the card says the enemy has to be eligible (so I think the Golden Rule helps my case). If you know how to ask a game designer about this, it would really set my mind at ease! I'm still a noob and this is only my third game.

Oops, I messed that post up, sorry. Here it is again:

I'm worried that the order does matter, because while the card cannot make an enemy ineligible (per Nate's response), the normal attack can make an enemy ineligible, and the card says the enemy has to be eligible (so I think the Golden Rule helps my case). If you know how to ask a game designer about this, it would really set my mind at ease! I'm still a noob and this is only my third game.

BUT, in this situation, the player named Tom declares a second attack against the same enemy twice in one round. Quick Attack allows Aragorn to attack someone again , obviously.

Quote:

This is indeed the best explanation I have come across so far. But I still don't understand why this quote from the FAQ ( http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/lotr-lcg/support/lotr-lcg-faq-low-res.pdf ) makes any sense.

Because the Hill Troll has already been

attacked by Tom, he cannot declare another attack

against it this round except through a card effect . So

if Tom exhausts Aragorn to play Quick Strike (CORE

35) which reads, "Action: Exhaust a character you

control to immediately declare it as an attacker ..." both

Aragorn and Legolas could attack the Hill Troll again.

Emphasis mine, it should answer your question. Quick Strike and other card effect does not say that you can attack again with Aragorn, they litterally set them up as an attacker, thus by passing the limitation.

Wich remind me of why this text is now gone. Having Legolas participate in a "quick strike" attack is wrong, see faq 1.6:

Q: Can characters with the ranged keyword participate

in an attack declared through the card Quick Strike

(CORE 35)?

11

A: No. There is no opportunity for other characters to

join a Quick Strike attack. One character is exhausted

to pay for the cost of Quick Strike, and the effect is that

the exhausted character is immediately declared as an

attacker against the target enemy. The card’s resolution

does not allow for a standard declaration step in which

other characters can declare.

EDIT : also, no order matters, this is silly.

Also, no need to ask a dev about that, but you can with the "Rules question" link at the very bottom of this page.

EDIT : yeah, there is an edit function guys.

EDIT : you made some good point on the BGG forum, I have answered it. ( http://boardgamegeek.com/article/18058999#18058999 )

Quick Strike is additionally explained in the latest version of FAQ (1.7):

(1.11) Limitations on Attacks
When a player is the active attacker during the combat phase, the game rules grant him the option to declare 1 attack against each enemy with which he is engaged. If, through card effects such as ranged, a player is able to declare attacks against enemies with which he is not engaged, the game rules still only provide for a single attack against each of these enemies.
However, if a player makes an attack against an enemy by a card effect such as Quick Strike (CS 35) or Hands Upon the Bow (D 131), that is an extra attack and does not count against the limit of 1 attack.

So, all our doubts are gone now