Just ran across this artcile over on Slate. We debated it on these forums before (heck, we may have inspired this article), but it's even been brought up by Star Wars itself prior to us. I figured people may be interested in seeing this article, especially if they're playing or GMing a droid character in their own home campaign. I know my own home campaign broaches the subject quite often, but it's usually dwarfed by my Trandoshan character who has sold biological entities into slavery. Oh ho ho, those crazy Trandoshans.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2013/06/droids_in_star_wars_the_plight_of_the_robotic_underclass.html

Hilarious. I'll go with the author's hopes, that it's Lucas delivering subtle irony.

At the same time, I just can't care much about droids…

Motivation: Droid Equality


aka

Every droid character I ever play's secret motivation.

In my universe all the non-class 4 or 5 droids follow asimov's laws of robotics. This also tends to make Class-4 droids a bit psycotic.

In the d6 star wars game I am currently running this issue has come up. However, as far as all characters are concerned, droids are droids, even if the players have had certain questions about the ethics of it all. A Jedi Master they asked dimissed the issue as "Its complicated". However, I will admit he is a more than slightly mad Jedi who wanted to be left alone, so it might be a simple issue in the minds of most Jedi.

My take is that some droids have sentience. Usually it is the result of not wiping droids regularly. this means that any regularly wipeddroid will not usually achieve sentience. I think the official line might actually be similar. However, I am not sure having beings which, if let to develop on their own, would develop sentience in slavery is really any better than having sentient beings in slavery.

However, I have taken it that as far as the Force is concerned, there is nothing wrong with it. Droids have no impact on the Force, and so buying and selling them etc is not an "evil" act as far as the same is concerned (d6 is fairly punishing as far as committing evil acts is concerned).

If you read Coruscant Nights trilogy by Michael Reeves, they actually discuss droids quite a bit.

Long story short: 99.99999% (or more) are non-sentient because there are hardward and software inhibitors installed in droids. They can be worked around, so some rare droids are sentient. R2D2, along with I-5YQ (the droid from Coruscant Nights) fall into this category (I have my doubts about C3PO, especially in Episode IV. By Return of the Jedi you could probably argue that he achieved sentience).

Just my 2 credits' worth.

And here comes the true complications!

If it isn't evil to sell droids that aren't considered sentient, and they aren't sentient because they are fitted with behavioral inhibitors and periodically memory wiped, is it, then, evil to place those behavioral inhibitors and memory wipe droids, seeing as it prevents the droids from becoming actualized?

Oh the trouble with synthetic life forms.

Endrik Tenebris said:

To most residents of the Star Wars galaxy, it'd be no different than reformatting your personal computer after a particularly nasty virus infection, or putting an alarm on your car to prevent theft. And treating one as a friend and equal would be viewed by most folks as treating your laptop as a friend and equal; in short, most folks would think you were a tad off your rocker.

Droids are seen as manufactured property by most folks in Star Wars. Luke treating Artoo and Threepio with any amount of respect is unusual; consider how Han usually treats Threepio for a good idea of how most folks treat droids in the Star Wars universe. Heck, Obi-Wan, who is generally seen as the paragon of what it means to be a proper Jedi, doesn't see droids as being anything more than mobile machines, and probably thinks Anakin is odd for being as attached to Artoo as he is. Also consider the scene at Dexter's diner in AotC, with Obi-Wan and Dexter share a laugh about "droids thinking for themselves" and the "difference between knowledge and wisdom" crack by Dexter. And this is before the Clone Wars, when public opinion of droids likely plummets due to the Separatists using droids as their army.

Even the Rebel Alliance, seen as being the in-verse good guys, routinely make use of memory wipes for their droids, particularly those carrying or involved with sensitive information. Again, Artoo and to a limited extent Threepio are exceptions to this general rule.

I wouldn't be surprised if memory wipes on a droid were akin to "make sure to regularly run a virus scan on your PC"

But I don't think it's truly an evil act to install behavioral inhibitors or use memory wipes on a droid. It's not exactly good, but rather more of a safety feature to prevent a piece of hardware from going nuts and doing something highly detrimental to the droid's owner. After all, how would you feel if all your household appliances suddenly decided to just wander off, or if your laptop refused to run a program simply because it didn't want to?

Donovan Morningfire said:

That could just mean that in the future of the universe Luke Skywalker owned droids! will be the equivalent of George Washington owned slaves!

This whole thread makes me want to run a sort of Bioshock Infinite-esque campaign, thematically speaking.

Has anyone thought about treating the entire plight of the droids as something akin to a form of slavery? Back in the day slavery was considered normal, sure there were the people against it, but it wasn't ever really thought of as evil, just something that was. Even institutions considered good like churches had some too.

So I think the Jedi would fall into the catagory of being good, but not really caring due to it being a common practice like the rest of the universe. I think it would be an interesting campaign to touch upon unknowing slavery. Plus there are the other themes of: what exactly makes something considered sentient? Is it being flesh and blood? Are things more then what they are programmed to be? That one could be quite interesting ecspecially when applied to the evolution aspect of species. That opens the door to are the droids a species? There are a lot of powerful ideas and philosophies that could play out due to their uniqueness of position in the Star Wars universe.

As for treating them with Asimov's laws, I am kind of against that. We saw that being broken by R2D2 shocking things, which according to those laws would be impossible for him to do. Again you need to look at them as something that goes beyond their programing, kind of like us as a species. We evolve, and droids seem to evolve beyond their programming. If they don't then they are just normal robots and nothing more.

Donovan Morningfire said:

This is kind of an ongoing threat to droid PCs. If at any time they are captured or held in enemy hands it would be perfectly normal to wipe the droid, maybe at most after a debrief / torture session. As a GM should probably think of some kind of safeguards to would explain why a driod wasn't wiped. Or maybe even do it as a side 'encounter'. Don't tell the PCs exactly what is going on, but layout a simple tower defense type game that represents the droid's programming protecting itself. PCs playing different 'programs' or 'routines' that need to work together to keep the droid's sentience intact.

On the hand as a droid player character may I sign up for Dropbox and Megaupload please?

I believe many of the Droids are both sentinent and sapient. Even the B1 Battle Droids show situational awareness, make decisions, exhibit both fear and courage, and do not want to be killed (excuse me, deactivated). The treatment of the Droids by much of the population is a great example of the "banality of evil" that allows the various Republics to keep falling time and time again in Star Wars. It would be inconvenient for organic beings to treat the Droids as if they were living. Since living beings are already chattel, the state of a Droid is probably silly to beings like Han who place so much value on their own freedom.

The question of slavery is one of the most intriguing aspects of the Prequel Trilogy. We can't look to the behavior of the Jedi for the answer to whether or not Droids are enslaved. Watching the originals we might take Obi-Wan at his word that the Jedi are symbols for good in the galaxy. How do those of us with the view that slavery is evil justify that in the face of Jedi actions in those movies?

Unfortunately, the Jedi are fine with slavery, as seen in Episode I. Some of them might not like it, but outside of Republic space they don't seem to care about it. Worse, they are perfectly fine with exploiting the institution of slavery when it benefits them, in this instance buying Anakin through the gambling wager. Amazingly, they never go back for his mother. Who knows how the galaxy might have turned out if someone had taken the credits to go back to Tattooine and purchase, and then free, Shmi?

Worse, in Episodes II and III we see the Jedi have a slave army made of millions of beings. Can anyone argue about the sapience or sentinence of the clone troopers? The Jedi exploit the clones as if they were droids. The exception to this behavior is Anakin, who sees the clones as allies rather than materiel, when he wants to go back for Oddball at the start of RotS. I think the Jedi reconcile the use of the slave clones as the clones simply fulfilling their roles, much like the Jedi are fulfilling their own. This detachment is part of the Republic-era Jedi philosophy and a key reason they fail to stop the Sith. To a Jedi, I don't think it matters whether or not a Droid is sentinent or sapient.

One of the developments in recent EU stories has been the state of slavery in Star Wars. Karen Traviss uses slavery as one of the major sins of the Jedi in Republic Commando novels.Slavery in the Outer Rim has come up in the Fate of the Jedi series. Unfortunately, it was one of many story threads dropped as part of the round-robin authorship of the series. Slavery is also an important part of the excellent comic series The Dark Times.

Jedi Master Gunner,

I was going to post a full retort, but since this thread is already treading dangerously close to becoming a politically-charged pissing match, I won't.

I'm just going to say that I think you're way off-base and grasping at straws in trying to paint the Jedi as dark-hearted bigots, something that the bulk of the EU has repeatedly shown they are not.

Karen Traviss has her own issues, as should be clear given her glorification of a culture that has a long history of violence and warfare, and were seen (often rightfully so) by most folks as being amoral mercenaries.

And that's where I'm going to leave it. You can disagree or agree as you see fit, but I've said my last on this particular topic.

I've read all of Karen Travis's Republic Commando books. She glorifies the Mandalorians, but she doesn't make them perfect either. They steal millions of credits. They kill and murder when it befits them. But she doesn't make them perfect. As such, she makes sure that you realize that the Jedi aren't perfect either. Her novels don't glorify the Mandalorians any more than any other media that depicts them in their true nature (which many that picture them as heartless mercs don't). Rather, they inglorify the rest of the galaxy, and show that the shiny faces of the hailed heroes of the galaxy aren't necessarily perfect, even if they don't realize it.

I love the Jedi. I'm going to start by putting that out on the line. But they have quite a few major flaws in their philosophy. For one, their acceptance of the use of Clone Troopers. They had no choice in their destiny. They had to fight, and if they fled, they were executed as deserters. The Jedi turned a blind eye to this fact and used them anyways. Now, many Jedi cared about the clones. They acted kindly towards them, and most clones may not have ever had a second thought about it. But some did. Were they allowed to leave? No. Not legally, at least.

The Jedi knew this. They knew that clones had no choice. That they were living things bred for warfare. And yet they still used them, though they had no idea where they came from or why they existed. They still used them, even though they were, effectively, well-treated slaves. They owned no property. They were paid no wages. They were given no shore leave. They had no rights. They weren't even technically considered Republic citizens. Yet the Jedi did not stand up and fight for them. Would they have at the end of the war, if the Purge didn't happen? Maybe. We'll never know, though.

Are higher-programming droids capable of speech and sentient thought (not like Mouse droids or droids that are, esentially, mobile computers or other systems), like some of the ones we have discussed here like R2, 3PO, HK, and the rest, that much different from the clones? Just because they are made of gears, circuits, and verbobrains? Clones are created. Droids are created. Should clones be given rights? Should droids? Or should neither?

Honestly, considering how popular and commonplace droids are, I'm really surprised that this subject isn't a larger point of contention in a lot of Star Wars fiction. It is sometimes touched, but not nearly as much as many things.

To Donovan Morningfire:

Okay. I respect your opinion. I don't think the Jedi are dark-hearted bigots, I wouldn't be using this handle if I did, but they can have moral failings.

Back to the topic:

The Dalai Lama was once asked, in reference to Data from Star Trek the Next Generation, when it would be appropriate to treat artifical beings with respect and as if they were living. The response was to do so when they asked for it. Many Droids in Star Wars have reached that point.

"Does this unit have a soul?"

Endrik Tenebris said:

We must have read vastly different books then, because her writing sure seemed to paint the Mandalorians as being perfectly justified in their actions and that everyone who interacts with said Mandos think those guys are the greatest thing in the history of the galaxy, while the Jedi were barely competent egotistical boobs. The closest she got to showing Jedi as being even remotely decent beings was the Imperial Commando book.

Endrik Tenebris said:

"No disassemble, Stephanie!"

Really slamming Mandos again?You do know that Mando's have to follow a code called the Resol'nare to be a Mando right?Oh wait I forgot I am just supposed to be something for you to slice up,you know most Mandos would drop a Jedi for the amoral mers comment I can think of three clans off the top of my head Ordo,Spaar and Skirata.Okay back on topic in my campaigns I will have droids as is seen in-universe now my players playing droids will be sentient like R2 is or even HK is.But treating all droids as sentient is a tad too close to real-life politics and not Star Wars.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I will definitely say that they are Mando-oriented. Mandos and Jedi typically don't get along. Thus, doesn't it make sense that most media, which tend to sympythize with the Jedi, would paint the Mandalorians in an inglorious light? I see absolutely nothing wrong with a few books painting them in the reverse light. Pulling away the white curtain of the jedi that proves that they are no better than anyone else, and that they aren't perfect flawless creatures.

The Mandalorians are perfectly justified in their actions because if they didn't act that way, they would be swallowed up by a galaxy too harsh for them to live in. The Mandalorians rise up to the challenge and meet the harshness of the galaxy with teeth bared.

And there were a few really cool instances of cool Jedi stuff in those books. But they didn't center around Jedi as the main characters. Hence the name of the book. I hardly saw the Jedi as "barely competent." And they weren't all necessarily egotistical. But they were ignorant to how their actions and presence was percieved because of their blind usage of a slave army (which the clone army was, in all sense, a slave army. It is pretty much indisputable.)

TL;DR version: The Republic Commando novels are from a Mandalorian-centric point of view, unlike most media, which is from a Jedi-centric point of view. Does that make it bad or incorrect? No. It makes it unique and interesting, since it shows the galaxy through a T-slot helmet; not through the veil of the force. And does making the Jedi Order not 100% perfect innocent little puppy savers a bad thing? I certainly don't think so. And the RC novels certainly aren't the first or the last Star Wars media to shed the accidental camoflage of the Jedi.

If Boba Fett is a Mandolorian (I believe the earlier EU stuff had the Madolorians being long extinct and he had just nicked some of their cool awesome armour from somewhere, having no direct connections himself), then the Mandalorians cannot be a great people who follow a code of honour (or he is a really bad example of one). 1) This guy is a bounty hunter (who even the bad guys, the Imperials, look down on being pretty much immoral scum) 2) he works willingly for the single most powerful and evil crime lord around and 3) This is the guy Darth Vader told not to be too heavy handed. This is a guy one of the most evil people in the galaxy told to "Just chill it slightly, dude. I know I am one for the wholesale genocide of entire planets, but even I admit you are a bit of a heavy handed loose cannon."

Not sure how we're getting into a discussion about Mandalorians when the thread is about droids, but I'll chip in my thoughts. They can easily be summed up with "Mandos are overrated." Honestly, they've really done nothing truly of note (as a group. Lone mandalorians and their clone offspring have done galaxy-shaking things).

In the EU, the Mandalorians historically serve as the Sith's pawns. Looking back over the history of the conflict since the Great Hyperspace War, it seems that the Sith will usually send in the mandalorians to let them get beaten before the actual Sith come in and try to actually do damage to the Jedi.

The Mandalorian War was just a prelude to a planned invasion by the Sith. When Revan defeated them and found the Emperor, the Emperor nudged him and Malak over the line, and they returned as Sith, at the head of an advance fleet.

The Empire then helped reunite the Mandalorian clans in a way that Canderous Ordo could not. They put a puppet Mandalore in power, and the Mandos flocked to his banner. Then, the Sith used them as cannon fodder for their war.

Then in the Clone Wars, Palpatine, knowing his history, finds a single Mandalorian and clones him in order to create an army.

It's almost like a running joke: "Hey, Darth Murder. It's time to attack the Jedi again." "Already, Darth Pillager? What's our plan this time?" "Well, I figured we'd call in the Mandos and send them in to soften up the Republic before we swoop in and finish the job ourselves. No muss, no fuss." "Haven't we tried that before, and it didn't work out too well in our favor?" "Yeah, but this time is different."

But, let's talk about their actual combat effectiveness. When the Jedi refuse to engage them (as they did in the Mandalorian War), the Mandos seem to be unstoppable. They take territory quickly, they add to their numbers, and they expand outward. When the Jedi do get involved (even just a small number, as with the Revanchist Movement that ended the Mandalorian War), the mandalorians just fall apart, get driven back, and splinter off into some of the most immoral, mercenary … mercenaries in the galaxy. They're bullies. And, like bullies, when someone finally stands up to them and hits back, they cry out in pain and run off.

Jango and Boba are sources of particular merriment for me, considering their insane familial streak of bad luck. Jango serves as bodyguard/assassin/clone template for who? Count Dooku, a Sith lord. (This is confirmed in Attack of the Clones, when Fett said he was hired by "some guy named Tyranus.") He seems to be this great warrior, almost a match for Obi-Wan at one point. And then the arena battle happens. The reek headbutts his jetpack, causing it to malfunction. Rather than run away, he kept fighting. And, when Mace attacked, he tried to use his jetpack to fly, but it wouldn't light, and Jango lost his head.

Boba seems to have this great reputation. But, again, he's also foiled by his jetpack. When Luke ignites his saber on the skiff, Boba leaps into battle and rockets off to the skiff. Han, who is blind, is warned by Chewbacca os the presence of Boba Fett, and he flails about blindly with his polearm. The weapon hits Boba's jetpack, causing it to fire, and he rockets into the side of Jabba's barge, then slides down into the sarlacc's mouth.

Neither Jango nor Boba ever did anything remotely worth their reputations in the movies. And both proved themselves to be more mercenary than warrior. And, supposedly, these are the two we look to as the paragons of Mandalorian society.

Then, Traviss comes along, and she plays up the Mandalorians. But, instead of just showing the Mandalorians in a new light, maybe distancing them from the bumbling of the Fett boys, she embraces them, turning Boba into the new Mandalore and making the Jedi look like clowns wiedling flashlights in smoke-filled rooms. Jaina decides she needs to take down Jacen. Instead of going to Luke, who has loads of experience in combat and even nearly defeated Jacen a few books before, she decides she needs to go to a person who has "experience in killing Jedi." So, of course, she goes to Boba, who has no experience in killing Jedi (as opposed to, say, Aurra Sing, who actually does have experience in offing Jedi). And then, while she's there, Jaina, who is normally very sure of herself and quite an able warrior, is reduced to almost fawning over Boba Fett's glorious magnificence. After all, the "bathrobe brigade" is really only useful for getting things off of high shelves in Mandalorian society, because they're so inferior to the warriors.

Now, the Mandalorian is a great idea on paper. The ideal of the honorable warrior society has a long, proud tradition in our world. The Mandalorians do not in any way measure up to that. Despite all their speech about wearing the armor, speaking the language, and so on, they fail at actually staying honorable. The only really honorable Mandalorians I've seen are a few of the mandos under Boba, Rohlan Dyre, and, of course, Canderous Ordo. He may have gone mercenary, but he never forgot his honor. The Fetts are hardly worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as him.

I agree with Donovan, Droids = property. Primarily because of Obi wan's line, Well if droids could think there would be none of us here. Stating that droids cannot, in fact think. They can mimic what looks like intelligence but they cannot stray from their programming. But we are talking about a galaxy where presumably if you don't wipe a droids memory it develops "character traits". In our world if you don't clean up your hd you get a slow computer, I wish my computer got smarter with the more crap I loaded on it.

As for the clones, they were NOT part of the Jedi they were part of the Republic a very distinct difference. The Jedi were simply placed as their commanders. So the Jedi's feelings about the morality of using a clone army was not up to the Jedi Council to decide, it was the decision of the Senate, which in reality was Sidious.

As for slavery, I seem to recall a few Clone Wars episodes with Zygerrians that were renowned slavers that the Jedi defeated once before and they were defeated again during the CW. However, attempting to free every slave everywhere in the galaxy, I would assume, be beyond the power of the Jedi. The Jedi are too few to free all the slaves. I'm also going to venture a guess that interferring with the Hutt slave trade would be a hot political issue since there was a tenuous relationship between the Hutts and the Republic. However, I would also think the unsanctioned actions of a lone Jedi freeing a few slaves here and there wouldn't raise any issues. There was also the conversation that Padme said slavery in the Republic is illegal to which Shmi promptly replied the Republic doesn't exist out here. So it has just as much to do with jurisdiction as it does with anything else, but the overall law is it is illegal. Which is why Qui Gon took what he could with Anakin. And let's not forget the Jedi were known for stripping younglings from their families for training at the temple, so…

Personally I liked Fett better when he was a mercenary wearing the armor of a lost warrior society. I enjoyed reading KW Jeter's Bounty Hunter trilogy as there was still a mystique around Boba Fett and his history. Don't really care for all the current mandalorian stuff. Anyways…

As to droids and slavery, it should be as important as it needs to be for plot or the game in general. In the Star Wars universe there is room for both droids as, what is for all intents and purposes, just equipment, and droids as sentient beings that can help or oppose the players. Even in our world, there were slaves that rose above their station for one reason or another. It seems to me that most droids are treated as the equipment that they are unless a droid (as someone's earlier post stated) asked to recognized as a sentient being. I would think that stating such a thing would be enough to show that they are going beyond their programming in the Star Wars universe as we see both types.