I'll be evaluating their worth when TIE Bombers are released. The Rebels and their large ship options seem like worthier targets for these warheads than any Imperial craft. If 4 points knocks out half an X-Wing or blows away most of a YT-1300's shields, I'll consider them worthwhile.

First of all, we are talking about Proton Torpedoes not Concussion Missiles. Concussion Missiles are strictly better than PTs, so don't confuse the argument by talking about them.

Actually, no, they're not.

If you can fire them with a focus token to back them up, then yes, Concussions will turn out more damage because they'll have a means to handle both miss results (eyeball and blank) while the Proton Torpedo can't do anything about the blanks.

Lacking a focus token though, the hit probability is identical. There are the same number of eyeballs as there are blanks on an attack die. Neither counts as a hit on its own, and the chances of getting one are the same. The Proton Torpedo will turn a miss to a crit, the Concussion turns a miss to a hit. So from a statistical standpoint, the overall hit count will be identical, but the Proton Torpedo will have a better chance of delivering a crit.

Kinetic Operator - I was responding to nimbadew's post "I still firmly believe that all missiles should cost half of what they do currently, rounding up. "

So....yeah - people were talking about missiles, not just torps.

But - if we're talking about Torpedoes only and not missiles, then your argument to the "12 points worth of torps could be a new ship" is Not valid as the rebels can't even get close to a new ship with 12 points. They could take 3 shield upgrades, or 3 engine upgrades which either enhance health, or mobility, or they can take 3 torps which enhance firepower...

12 points of torps killing 12 points of ship? No. they could of course, but who would target lock 1 ship with 3 TLs (except a firespray or falcon)? If you put 1-2 damage on 3 ships, then next turn, if you get a single shot on (any or each) with an X-wing - you've got a **** good chance to kill it.

As to actions - if you got a range 3 shot on some academy pilot, and you choose to target lock (assuming you have torps) instead of focus, then your Action is to give them 1 less agility and roll 4 attack die. I frankly don't see how that's a bad action.

You do however have an extremely valid argument with low PS ships - unless you're facing Alpha squadron or Academy pilots it's gunna be hard to get those shots off.

Norsehound - i think you're dead on. Wave 3 seems to bring with it the resurgence of missile/torp ordinance - people will want to bring 1 or 2 (on either side) to put some hurt on B-wings or the Lambdas...we really just need to have this discussion once wave 3 is being played lol.

I came in second place at the regionals I went to with the following:

Prototype Pilot

- Concussion Missile

Rookie Pilot

Dutch Vander

- Ion Cannon Turret

- Proton Torpedo

Garven Dreis

On the first attacking round, I would have a flanking Awing with a focused concussion missile and a forward focused torpedo firing into the other squad. This guaranteed at minimum a dead xwing, but was also a critically wounded firespray or falcon if the other player fielded them. Would I have been better with a third Xwing? Maybe, but I preferred that alpha strike to deal damage and demoralize my opponent.

Kinetic I'll admit my post was a gross oversimplification. Honestly while I like protons I would never use them as a key factor upon which my entire plan rests. I think the optimal use of them is against targets that can be crited and that you don't think you can finish off that turn. In your counterpoint you mentioned using 12 points of torps to down a 12 point tie. Even I wouldn't put that many torpedoes in a standard 100 point squad but if I did I would spread them around a bit, aiming to cripple as much as I could before the main event. That's the key with this upgrade, it has a similar job to ion weapons though it goes about it in a different way. It isn't about the killing. It's about enabling the future killing.

Vonpenguin, you and I agree then. I love PTs, just because I love Y-Wings. However, I have no illusions about them being cost effective.

The largest issue is that only high PS pilots are likely to get the TL at range 2 or 3 to make them worthwhile. First, this dramatically limits the number of ships that can realistically use them.

Second, it works against the PTs mechanic. When Horton fires his PT at a Firespray or YT-1300 on that first pass and does 2 or 3 hits + a Crit, all he does is clobber shields. His crit is no more helpful than a regular hit would have been because he fires so early in the turn. Had he been able to fire later in the turn after the targets shields were down his crit would have been much more effective.

If Horton were to hold his PT for use in a later turn he loses the advantage of "front loading" damage on that first pass, plus he probably won't have someone in front of him at Range 2 or 3 after that first turn anyway. That "Alpha Strike" is the main reason people take Ordnance of any sort in the first place.

Syleh Forge - I realize others had brought up missiles as well. However, the thread is specifically about PTs so I was attempting to refocus the conversation. As for Concussion Missiles vs. Proton Torpedoes, please take a look at some of the excellent spreadsheets around that detail the effectiveness of the various pieces of ordinance. CMs are equally effective as a PT without focus, and much better than PTs when fired focus. CMs and Homing Missiles are nearly equal in effectiveness, but the CMs at 4 points vs. HMs at 5 points CMs are generally considered to be the most cost effective ordinance in the game. This is why I objected to equating them to PTs.

And you are correct, rather than 3 PTs a player could get 3 Shields or 3 Engine Upgrades. Either of those would be a better use of the points, generally speaking, as would using those 12 points to "upgrade" the pilots of your ships to ones with higher PS and special abilities.

The costs I believe would be effective are:

Proton Torpedoes: 2 points

Cluster Missiles: 2 points

Concussion Missiles: 3 points

Assault Missiles: 3 points

Homing Missiles: 4 points

But that, alas, is purely my opinion.

It seems to me that we share the same views on the pros and cons of the ordnance, just differing in how we weigh them. I'll admit you probably have a better grasp of "high level" play than I do. I live in a hobbyist wasteland, the only people available to play with inside of an hours drive are those I can talk into it and even then I have to shell out the money and put in all the learning time. Things that work against my friends would probably rarely if ever work against people that play more than once a month.

At the end of the day this is a starfighter vs starfighter game, torpedoes and missiles are for use against capital ships. If you think they're overpriced, don't use them.

At the end of the day this is a starfighter vs starfighter game, torpedoes and missiles are for use against capital ships. If you think they're overpriced, don't use them.

This has been mentioned a couple of times, but anyone who has read the X-wing books knows that they can also be used effectively against starfighters. From Wookiepedia: "The torpedoes were exceptionally maneuverable, able to make a 90 degree turn within a turning circle of a meter, enabling them to be used against starfighters"

But I do agree that those 4 precious points used to purchase ordnance are often best employed against low agility targets. Of course, on a Y-wing with only 2 attack, it might be worth it to try and tag those pesky 3AGI ships with a powerful 4 dice attack.

I agree with most of what has been said about Torps and Missiles, They are a lot of points tht can only be used once, and might do nothing at that. One of the first things I tried with my Y-wings was the double torp list. It was terrible. But that was okay, becasue Torps are an upgrade and you don't have to take them. Y-wings are great with Ion Turrets and really not that bad with no upgrades at all.

My worry is for the new TIE Bomber. They basically are set up to load out with all sorts of ordinance, Torps, Missiles and Bombs. (don't get me started on bombs) My worry, is what good will this ship be if it doesn't take torps, missiles, or bombs. What else is there to a TIE bomber? I have to admit, it has always held a special place in my heart, and I will of course buy three. I just don't know if I will ever use them.

One possible fix, is for the pilots to have secondary weapon specific special rules. But they would have to be pretty good to justify the cost for a single shot. The problem with that is of course what about the generic pilots who won't have any special rules.

The B-wing on the other hand can equip the heavy laiser cannon. That is a secondary weapon I can get behind.

You should probably take a look at some of the spoiled Imperial stuff for the next wave.

Jonus lets friendlies reroll (probably) 2 dice on secondaries. Jendon allows you to hand out target locks easily, letting your ordnance carriers maximize their potential by focusing rather than target locking, and with ST-321 can do it from anywhere on the board. Yorr will absorb friendly stress, allowing appropriate pilots with PtL to lock/focus on a strike without worrying about the movement limitation for next turn.

I think you'll (still) need to build a squad with some solid synergy to make missiles work, but there are certainly enough tools and toys to ensure they can function.

At the end of the day this is a starfighter vs starfighter game, torpedoes and missiles are for use against capital ships. If you think they're overpriced, don't use them.

This has been mentioned a couple of times, but anyone who has read the X-wing books knows that they can also be used effectively against starfighters. From Wookiepedia: "The torpedoes were exceptionally maneuverable, able to make a 90 degree turn within a turning circle of a meter, enabling them to be used against starfighters"

But I do agree that those 4 precious points used to purchase ordnance are often best employed against low agility targets. Of course, on a Y-wing with only 2 attack, it might be worth it to try and tag those pesky 3AGI ships with a powerful 4 dice attack.

Funny thing is, the Edge of the Empire RPG rules specifically state that concussion missiles are starfighter killers while proton torpedoes are for use against capital ships because of their higher breach rating against armour. Wookiepedia also states that TIE interceptors could carry missiles or torpedoes, but you don't see them in the game. So many contradictions...

I don't EVER remember seeing TIE Interceptors with missiles.

I do remember some Interceptors having shields and even hyperdries, but they were after market, not stock. So its possible that somewhere in the EU someone went all Pimp My Ride on their interceptor and added missiles, but I'm pretty sure that Interceptors never game from the factory with them

At the end of the day this is a starfighter vs starfighter game, torpedoes and missiles are for use against capital ships. If you think they're overpriced, don't use them.

This has been mentioned a couple of times, but anyone who has read the X-wing books knows that they can also be used effectively against starfighters. From Wookiepedia: "The torpedoes were exceptionally maneuverable, able to make a 90 degree turn within a turning circle of a meter, enabling them to be used against starfighters"

But I do agree that those 4 precious points used to purchase ordnance are often best employed against low agility targets. Of course, on a Y-wing with only 2 attack, it might be worth it to try and tag those pesky 3AGI ships with a powerful 4 dice attack.

Funny thing is, the Edge of the Empire RPG rules specifically state that concussion missiles are starfighter killers while proton torpedoes are for use against capital ships because of their higher breach rating against armour. Wookiepedia also states that TIE interceptors could carry missiles or torpedoes, but you don't see them in the game. So many contradictions...

Interesting. I guess I'm really biased by the X-wing novels because they are my favorite books. But based on the X-wing and TIE fighter video games, I'm inclined to agree with you and Edge of the Empire. But Proton Torpedoes can be used in this game against fighters. So that's where we stand (even though it does seem a little odd compared to some sources). And as pointed out above by Buhallin, they aren't any better than Concussion Missiles without a boost/buff of some kind, so it doesn't matter what their supposed to hit, I suppose.

Second, it works against the PTs mechanic. When Horton fires his PT at a Firespray or YT-1300 on that first pass and does 2 or 3 hits + a Crit, all he does is clobber shields. His crit is no more helpful than a regular hit would have been because he fires so early in the turn. Had he been able to fire later in the turn after the targets shields were down his crit would have been much more effective.

If Horton were to hold his PT for use in a later turn he loses the advantage of "front loading" damage on that first pass, plus he probably won't have someone in front of him at Range 2 or 3 after that first turn anyway. That "Alpha Strike" is the main reason people take Ordnance of any sort in the first place.

And this is exactly why I load Horton up with 2 Proton Torpedoes. He fires the first one off as soon as he gets a shot, and the second one he can fire later if he gets the chance. If he doesn't get the chance, it's an excellent protection against Munitions Failure, because his Ion Cannon would go, too. This has saved me at least 3 times.

I don't EVER remember seeing TIE Interceptors with missiles.

Me neither. The guys at FFG clearly aren't taking Wookiepedia as gospel.

I love Interceptors like no-one else. But I must admit shields and missiles on them are absurd in the least.

This idea screams for the ability to build space stations or other planetary defense systems to help protect planets from falling into enemy hands easily. And, yes, Capital ships would be nice too. There needs to be a way to get the ships without jump drives to the far away battles. This would be so much fun, but would require a whole lot of new rules...

Anybody who's familiar with Magic knows that not all game design is oriented towards Tier 1 Spike play. Sometimes things are simply designed for fun or flavor. If all that mattered was that you play a winning list, everyone would be running HSF or double YTs.

My $0.02: PTs aren't a terrible buy if you theory craft a list and end up 4 points short. Might as well spend them on something.

Another try at making torpedoes work, this time using Wave 3 stuff:

Wedge w/ advanced proton torpedoes: 35 points

Horton w/ R2 unit, advanced proton torpedoes, blaster turret: 36 points

Kyle Katarn w/ veteran instincts, recon specialist, and blaster turret: 29 points

TOTAL: 100 points

Pilot skill is high to help get those target locks and shoot first. Katarn handing out focus+ Wedge and Horton abilities= best chances for torpedoes to smash something.

Thoughts?

Another try at making torpedoes work, this time using Wave 3 stuff:

Wedge w/ advanced proton torpedoes: 35 points

Horton w/ R2 unit, advanced proton torpedoes, blaster turret: 36 points

Kyle Katarn w/ veteran instincts, recon specialist, and blaster turret: 29 points

TOTAL: 100 points

Pilot skill is high to help get those target locks and shoot first. Katarn handing out focus+ Wedge and Horton abilities= best chances for torpedoes to smash something.

Thoughts?

It looks like a pretty solid list, except for Horton. Maybe I'm just old school, but I really like to put regular old Proton Torpedoes on him to take advantage of his pilot ability. However, Blaster Turret at Range 2 will be very accurate with Kyle's support, and Advanced Proton Torpedoes don't really need Horton's rerolls, so I guess it's okay. Yeah, I'm warming up to it, but I probably wouldn't run it just out of personal tastes.

I also imagine that this will do better against big ships than against a TIE swarm. But then, I guess we're still trying to figure out what is good against a TIE swarm (I'm talking the 7-8 TIE versions).

<head smack>

I forgot that advanced protons are range 1 only and so Horton's ability doesn't apply. If I put a regular torp on Horton instead, that frees up two points. Swarm tactics on Wedge? Drop Veteran Instincts on Kyle to put Marksmanship on Wedge? Better ideas?

Change Salm to Dutch and Kyle to Jan, and you get TL + Focus combo AND an additional attack die, making 6 in total. You'd have to take out R2 to do it, or switch Dutch's APTs to regular PTs. Or you could swap out the Y-Wing's PTs altogether for another turret.

At any rate, you don't need a whole lot of reasons to play Advanced Proton Torpedoes - their power speaks for themselves. This thread is more concerned with the regular variety, which aren't remotely as potent.

I dunno. Most of the time when I've seen them used properly (at range 3, with focus) they do 3-4 hits, with at least 1-2 crits. Horton is a killer with them. With other Wave 3 special pilot skills they will only get better.