Torps are a 1shot weapon that roll 4 dice. On a basic x-wing, that is 1additional die. However, they eat up your target lock. So, by the math, that's 2 hits on average. But a target lock with your basic 3 dice is 2 and 1/4 hits. Other than not getting the extra defense roll at range 3, where is the advantage for the extra points you are spending? Even if you spend another turn and get focus, that only raises the number of hits to the 2 and a half. Thats not much better than the regular attack.

What am I missing?

Don't forget that, with a Proton Torp, if you roll a focus you can turn it into a critical hit.

You aren't missing anything, unfortunately. Despite the focus-lite ability of PTs, they are strictly bad for their points cost. If they cost 2 points they would be worthwhile, but 4 is way too many points for a single shot marginally effective weapon that can only be used by expending a target lock.

Generally they arent 'great'. But they also have to function thematically. Proton Torpedoes arent meant to kill starfighters. They are meant to take down capital ships. (and death stars!) They are great against large ships like the Falcon and Slave 1 which generally have low agility. Thats why concussion missiles are generally better against fighters, since they turn a blank into a hit. A regular X-wing shooting a Proton Torpedo at a TIE Fighter…bit of a waste like you said. BUT….other pilots can make that attack worthwhile. For example, Y-wing pilot Horton Salm (re-roll any blank results at range 2-3) or Wedge Antilles with Marksmanship or Deadeye.

The one MAJOR thing you're missing is that it's a secondary weapon. That can have a dramatic influence on the defense roll, because range bonuses don't apply in the context of a secondary weapon attack. Especially if you're attacking, say, a firespray at range 3. You'll get a 4v2 attack no matter what (unless the FS-31 is behind an asteroid, in which case it's unfortunately becomes 4v3) and it's huge compared to a 4v3 attack. Ideally, you'll want a focus token as the attacker and pray for the lack of one for the defender.

This same reason makes the Heavy Laser Canon so dangerous against X-Wings. The firespray basically only gets 4v2 situations against them except while backfiring, even at range 1 (it becomes a main weapon attack then with less restrictions on critical results).

They aren't useless, they are just overpriced at 4 points, that's all. The HLC only costs 7 points, doesn't require a TL (which is a very big deal, those are hard to get for low PS pilots while still remaining at Range 2-3), is available most times with a focus, and can be reused.

Like I said, 2 points. Allowing Y-Wings to run fully loaded for 4 points makes them useful. If that were the price, you might see some builds with fully loaded Y-Wings rather than Ion Cannon Y-Wings, trading 360 degrees and control for the potential for a couple big hits. But at 4 points each, the price to load up with PTs is just too high.

Well, you don't seem to remember that torps make a focus into a crit, so the numbers are actually 3 out of 4 hits per shot. In addition to this, it give a 3/8ths chance to get a crit - which vs. tie fighters can really do some damage. It of course negates range bonus so that helps as well. Yes it spends a target lock, but if you take it slow in the beginning and are able to get a range 3 shot off with torps, you're likely to do at least 1 damage (statistically likely to be a crit) and you still get 3 agil (x-wing) against their returning fire. It's well worth the 4 points in my opinion. You have to be careful, and smart, but they can really mess up an enemy ship. Of course - it's best against big ships, but i believe that it's worth the points on occasion.

KineticOperator said:

what he said.

100% agree.

Up until recently the biggest problem with ordinance (Specifically Protons) is that the Empire (the most likely target for the Torpedo-carrying Rebellion starfighters) has high evasive across nearly all of their starfighters. You're rolling 4 attack dice with one definate critical hit, but your opponent is rolling 3 evasive, possibly cancelling most of your results (if you're even landing a hit in the first place!).

This was remedied some with missiles, the A-Wing having a few more options at their disposal (including Cluster missiles) and the Empire having a generic platform to launch missiles with (TIE Advanced x1). Missiles can still be iffy about hitting but every other option aside from Concussion missiles gives you a better chance at hurting the enemy or doing more damage when it connects (Homing missiles doesn't waste the TL, Cluster missiles attack twice, Assaults do damage to a wider range).

This new wave gives some goodies to either side though. TIE Bombers are particularly valueble to the Empire player because now they can use double-torp builds against slower starships that can't dodge more than half of the damage points. Better, since some important syngery-giving Rebel pilots are on slow and easily hit starships (The Falcon, Y-Wing). The Bomber and Lambda are a bit of a boon to the rebellion too ironically, since with Imperial players now taking them in their lists, torpedo slots allow dogfighting X-Wings to have the option of shooting at more valueble targets (Bomber/Firespray/Lambda).

Also the B-Wing gives the Rebellion an awesome strike fighter that can dogfight, shoot torpedoes at capital ships, and shrug off some damage before leaving the field. The Cannon option might be more attractive to the rebel player on the B-Wing, but in the case of wanting guranteed critics Proton Torpedoes are still available to shoot at the same range.

Heavy Rockets Advanced Proton Torpedoes are something else though, since now Y-Wings can double-load them and try kamikazie attacks at point blank range rolling 5 attack dice- presuming you can get a target lock in the turn before (and somehow discourage the Empire from rushing you to close the distance before you can fire) and focus on the turn during. Dutch is pretty good for this kind of squadron by passing around Target Locks.

So I dunno. Wave 3 seems to have some interesting possibilities for guided weapons. And with the Empire getting a cheap generic missile platform, it looks like ordinance might see a bigger role in the future.

The_Brown_Bomber said:

Dito! The standard Torp is too expensive, if at all it makes sense on Wedge or Salm at range 3. And don't give me that fluff blabla, it's a game and if there is an item like this one that makes hardly any sense people just won't play it. For 4 points that you have spare, anything makes more sense than a proton torp. On Y-Wings where they buffed the 2 attack to a 4 at least for a turn, they will become even more unpopular with the arrival of the blaster turret, which costs 4 too and is plain better in 95% of situations (rough estimation XD€

I think when used skillfully, the proton torpedo can be a valuable weapon. In a competitive list, you might skip the torpedoes because you need to make an all-comers squadron. But consider a few things. placing one torpedo on an x-wing could give you an early chance at damaging your opponents named pilot. Against imperials, it can be a big help to put a crit into howlrunner, fel or night beast early. or perhaps you put some torps on Y-wings and hang back, survive an extra round or two then kill-shot someone with them. I play mostly friendly matches with friends, and we always try to maintain Rebels vs Imperials. If I played competitively, I could see passing up torpedoes since you just won't know what other lists you'll be facing.

Torps and missiles are a nice to have, but are defintely not necessary. I use them to fill points when I don't have anything else better to sped the points on. I would take an Academy Pilot over 3 concussion missiles any day.

ok yes torps are expensive, and I think that they were purposefully made to be expensive. for the exact reasons you all have stated.. they are more for use against capitol ships and in some cases useful against a heavy hitting pilot. I do believe they will prove to be more valuble in future waves on y-wings and tie bombers. the llambda class shuttle looks tenacious and I am already thinking of an a-wing y-wing assault group to take it out. lol and yes with torps on the y-wings. and as for the missiles: a-wings were designed for them and I whole heartedly believe that ordinance will play a vital role in x-wing as the game progresses. lets face it if we were to just shoot lasers at each other all the time it would get quite boring and with heavy guns such as ion cannons and turret lasers and heavy laser cannons that can shoot 360 missiles and torpedos give you the option of hitting from range three and still get an extra defense die they can knock shields out for other friendlies to pounce on and batter. and they can get that pesky low pilot skill battering ram out of the way early, before he can tie up your heavy hitter and break apart your formation. these are the reason I am looking into running a-wings more because they upgrade to missiles and are actually agile enough to get a shot off then run behind the enemy and hit him from behind at closer range. and in a multiplayer game my a-wings can actually soften up the heavy hitter for a wave of b-wings, x-wings, or even y wings to mop up like spilled milk on a linoleum floor. and add torpedo's to a couple of y-wing going after the shuttle after the a-wings decimate it's shields and you will be invited to the rebel base for the victory party! so if I am allowed to speculate for a second in recap I am of the belief that the game designers wanted to add the fire power of the torpedo but also wanted to discourage their use in a dog fight. cause lets face it the imps are supposed to have an edge in the game and it is the rebels who have to find a way to defeat the powers that rule. and I believe the creators wanted a game that followed that principle. and in the right place at the right time torpedo's can be a devastating weapon to any side but it comes with a cost. and we as fleet commanders and squadron leaders have to weigh that cost against our objectives in any battle.

This is a dice game, and random chance plays a big factor. I think that Proton Torpedoes are a bit swingy for most competitive lists, but when they pay off they pay off big! If you have a Solo-esque disregard for odds, they can be loads of fun!

Never tell me the odds!

At least that's what I keep telling myself when I keep rolling blanks.

I've only been playing a week but torps certainly seem hit or miss to me and the cost seems disproportionately high when compared to their effect. I have had several torp shots do little to no damage, but in one game I swung Slave I around in a desparate K-turn, fired off a torp at max range and scored a 3 hit 1 Crit (Direct Hit!) for 5 damage and destroyed my opponent's Falcon to win!

It was exciting and fun! Still, I agree that those 4 points are usually better spent elsewhere; 4 points seems too expensive to me.

I agree with the general consensus that torpedoes are not reliable; sometimes they do massive damage and sometimes they wiff. That being said, I am trying to build the most viable torpedo list I can. I realize it is not a top-tier squad, and Horton is an obvious target. But if the dice go your way, you could dish out a lot of damage in one turn!

Wedge w/ R2 unit, torpedoes, swarm tactics

Biggs w/ R2, torpedoes

Horton Salm w/ R2, torpedoes x2

Total: 100 points

Wedge and Horton have abilities that improve torp performance, R2 units make the ships more maneuverable. torpedoes on everyone, and swarm tactics to help biggs or horton shoot before everyone else. Thoughts?

You have to have to plan to stack the odds in your favor or else they're crap. You can't expect to just plop them on a bunch of Rookie X-Wings and blast away. Same with pretty much any Rebel ship besides Wedge and Horton (as rmb43 just said) and possibly Luke.

Wedge w/PTL and a Torp is pretty sick. He'll move after most models so he can TL the target he wants, then PTL to get a Focus. Spend the TL to shoot, then you've got the focus token in case you roll more than 1 focus, or else you save it for defense. Luke can pull the same trick, but doesn't have Wedge's -1 def die ability. Horton is good w/it b/c his ability allows you to re-roll a blank and his Y-Wing is sturdy enough to almost always get the torp off.

On the Imperial side, Krassis actually makes excellent use of them. Slave I is durable enough that you can save it for the perfect shot and his ability lets you re-roll one die. Last night I TL'd a ship that was outside of my firing arc on one turn, lined him up on the next and took a focus, then fired his torp. I rolled a Crit, Hit, Focus, and Blank. Used the torp's ability to change the focus to a Crit, then used Krassis to re-roll the blank, got a focus, and used my focus token to make that a hit.

I still firmly believe that all missiles should cost half of what they do currently, rounding up.

If they only cost 2, then every person would put them on every single ship possible. 2 points to do range 3 shots with 4 dice and no extra defense dice?? That would be ridiculous. You'd see 4 y-wing lists with 2 torpedoes each...i'd like to see any fleet win that one. Or concussion missiles which (if you have a focus) nearly guarantees 4 hits, for only 2 points? 2 points for a very good chance to do 1-3 damage to a ship (which for imperials takes out a ship)....Would not be cool. I've played many games (all casual) and torps, while they fail about half the time, the other half of the time they demolish ships, essentially putting them out of the fight. Are they competitive? No, but only due to the randomness of dice rolls. Can they be good? Absolutely

So just for the record. A torpedo costs four points, rolls four dice, costs a target lock to use (unless you have deadeye), and automatically turns a focus into a crit. Against an imperial enemy you will most likely be looking at three agility dice. If neither side stacks the odds then you are looking at 3 3-in-8 chances of reducing 4 50% chances with a 50% chance that one of those “misses” will hit anyway. Those seem like decent odds as a base. Now most enemies, if they know they’re going to be targeted will probably take steps to avoid it, leaving them with either a guaranteed evade, which still leaves the attacker slightly ahead, or a 5-in-8 chance of dodging on each of three dice. It seems to that the odds of at least connecting are generally in the torpedoes favor.

Now just because they hit doesn’t mean they are worth the trouble. So let’s compare then against a few ships and see how the numbers work out. Against a 12-point academy pilot a single hit will take out one third of its 3 hull, meaning that you have effectively dealt 4 squad points worth of damage to it, exactly what you paid. Since every standard tie and interceptor will only account for a larger percent and has the same chance of being hit the numbers will only improve in the torpedoes favor. A 21 point Tempest pilot has five health and the same defensive odds, meaning a tiny fraction of a better point ratio, though on a near miss they will reduce any crit results you earned. A 33 point bounty hunter has ten health, four of which are shields, which makes it a less attractive target in round one but its lower agility makes it a better target overall. A single hit will only deal 3.3 “squad points” worth of damage but is more likely to hit at all.

That said they are fairly priced for what they do and they are good at it. Optimally you’ll be aiming them at high hull, low agility, ships that have lost their shields but they can also be decent at tagging smaller fighters at range so that you have an edge in the “real” fight. I’ll admit they are fairly swingy and if you wiff you’ll be cursing yourself for it, but if you hit at all then you probably made up for the spent points at the very least. After all, if you only landed one hit at range 2-3 then there are decent odds that the extra die and/or lack of defense boost was what allowed it at all.

Interestingly I think wave three will see a boost in proton use, not only because of the three high health, low agility ships being added but also because of the advance torpedoes. I can very easily see b-wings and y-wings packing one of each so that a target locked foe can’t avoid it completely by simply keeping the proper range.

So let me make sure I'm following the conversation here... Proton Torpedoes suck unless you do something to help support them, like put them on the right pilot or synergize your squadron to make it easier to get target locks.

Just to make REALLY sure I'm following this... people are basically complaining that there's interactive complexity in squadron building?

I don't think anyone is complaining, we are discussing, there is an important difference. Most of the posts are couched in language similar to 'I think' and 'it seems to me' rather than absolutist terms. I know I am not sure proton torps. are good or bad, my experience is very limited and I want all the input I can get. Much of what I have read here is very helpful and I intend to experiment more with torps and with Y-wings.

I for one am not sure, but as I already said they do seem a tad too expensive.

p.s. we just received our brand new Tie Advanced and X-wing expansion, my son slapped the dog-snot out of my SpaceTank (Y-wing) with a concussion missle, hit me for 4 damage!

I still think that ironically Proton Torpedoes are best used against Rebel ships. The only valid target in the Empire is the Firespray, all other ships have 3 dodge.

I already have a few TIE Bomber lists that max out on Proton Torpedoes. Let's see Solo escape this one.

If they only cost 2, then every person would put them on every single ship possible. 2 points to do range 3 shots with 4 dice and no extra defense dice?? That would be ridiculous. You'd see 4 y-wing lists with 2 torpedoes each...i'd like to see any fleet win that one. Or concussion missiles which (if you have a focus) nearly guarantees 4 hits, for only 2 points? 2 points for a very good chance to do 1-3 damage to a ship (which for imperials takes out a ship)....Would not be cool. I've played many games (all casual) and torps, while they fail about half the time, the other half of the time they demolish ships, essentially putting them out of the fight. Are they competitive? No, but only due to the randomness of dice rolls. Can they be good? Absolutely

First of all, we are talking about Proton Torpedoes not Concussion Missiles. Concussion Missiles are strictly better than PTs, so don't confuse the argument by talking about them.

VonPenguin - I don't want to quote directly because of the length of your post. However, I believe your comparison misses several critical issues.

First, for a 4 point torpedo to "pay for itself" the way you describe, it has to be fired. This requires a TL, and range 2-3. This is not as easy as it appears, especially when the PT is loaded on a low PS ship like a Gold Squadron Y-Wing. Torpedoes often disappear with the ship they were on without being fired, especially when you load 2 of them on a single Y-Wing.

Second, while a torpedo may do its "points worth" of damage, it does NOT provide its "points worth" of increase to your squadron's health. For example, 12 points of Torpedoes can kill 12 points of ships in one turn, but that same ship will also shoot back and deal damage. You have spent 12 points of torpedoes to eliminate one 12 point ship. Your opponent spent 12 points on a ship to eliminate 12 points of torpedoes and deal 1 or 2 damage to your squadron (assuming it only took one shot). 12 points of PT only increases your firepower, 12 points of ship increases both firepower and health.

Third, 12 points of torpedoes requires your squadron to expend 3 actions to fire them. A 12 point ship costs 0 actions to use, and instead adds an additional action. Action efficiency is a huge part of this game. A 4 action "swing" would be the equivalent of having 4 of your ships run into something and lose their action on one turn, which is generally a very quick way to a very bad turn.

PT's are not useless, they are just overpriced. We can all point to examples where they did something worthwhile, but then again I have seen Dark Curse take out Han Solo before also. That doesn't make Dark Curse worth 46 points.