@BobusX:

Reading your post was depressing.

As I don't have in any way that kind of experience with Descent, I can't understand your exact feelings, but I gather that they are very strong. Try playing it as a hero. Maybe you'll have a different perspective, even as an OL.

As my fellow players are very good as heroes and still I can manage to win as OL, I don't have the same feelings about the game. Still, being this such a good game experience, why don't you try (if you really like playing as OL) to discuss with them house rules that let you enjoy more the game. You could try one, some or all of these:

1) Your monsters can steal equipment. If you knock out an hero and there isn't another hero adjacent to the knocked out hero, a monster can spend one action and steal an equipment. If the monster is able to leave the boardgame with the equipment, the equipment is lost for the heroes. If the heroes kill the monster, they can recover the equipment spending an action.

2) You can choose a lieutenant in the begining of the campaign. You can choose a class to add to the lieutenant. Every scenario that allows you to put an open group, you can choose to field the lieutenant instead. Every scenario that you use the lieutenant and win the scenario, you can give him a XP. You can spend a card to heal 1 point of damage to the lieutenant. Every equipment that was stole by the monsters can be used by the lieutenant. If the lieutenant looses all damage he's knocked out. You can use a turn to heal him 1 red die. The lieutenant has 3 points of fatigue.

3) The lieutenants boost the monsters near them. The monsters 4 squares near the lieutenant will have +1 damage and an addicional brown die.

4) The OL Avatar. At any moment during the scenario you choose one monster to become your trusted commander or the avatar of you . That monster gains the following traits. +5 wounds, +2 damage, +1 yellow die, can make 2 attacks and has two special powers: Despair: Spend 2 surge and give the hero two stun cards and Teleport: spend 1 surge to move the avatar five squares away from his initial position after the attack.

I hope this helps.

One final thought: I play my games with my friends and family the way we want them. If we like them and they are slightly broken, we fix them. That is choosing the FUN FACTOR. All else is unimportant regarding gaming. IMHO.

I use the basic 2 deck and the punisher cards, but nothing scales with the Heroes items.

Which punisher cards are you using? In my experience "No Rest for the Wicked" is just VASTLY superior to "Trading Pains".

@BobusX

If you do get a chance to be a hero, take Steelhorns. Then you won't even need to kill the blocking monsters. Just laugh your way through any room all the way to the objective.

Bobus X:

I am very sorry you feel the way you do. It sounds like you have a bad run of it. It happens. It was a complaint my heroes had on my in our first go of it. Misunderstanding of rules was the leading cause (both sides where cheating really badly), but beyond that is crappy rolls. Just last week my heroes rolled 10 misses in one encounter. Not quest, encounter! I won that game by a land slide. This was a quest that the heroes could have won easily.

but this is about the OL. Dice happen. And once the heroes take off, it's hard to catch up. Don't I know it. I agree with everyone else. Try the heroes. try house rules. Read the rule book again and make notes. I had to do that three times before I felt I was comfortable with all the rules and knew we could no longer "cheat" on either side.

Go for the fun factor. No game should be played if it isn't fun.

Well, they got me. I finally had enough and asked to be replaced as overlord by one of the players. I tried all of the advice here, used the new cards and monsters, and really went all out with every trick I could pile up. I even managed to win the first part of the Frozen Spire, for my first encounter win against this group ever.

In part 2 I got wrecked. Any encounter that is not time sensitive is a joke. They killed all my monsters, positioned for my monsters to spawn, and waited. They knew they would slaughter my goblins before they could get past, and with no time pressure, and no competing objective (since I cannot open the prison door on my own), There was nothing I could do. I managed to drop two of them in one turn by double frenzy and double blood rage, but I couldn't get my goblins there in time to actually open the door. One big move later, all my goblins were dead and all the heroes were on their feet again. They leisurely grabbed all the treasure and beat down the prisoner and walked out, without it ever being close.

Next we did the dawn blade. I put one Shadow Dragon at each end of the hallway, hoping the combo of tanking monsters they couldn't walk past, and some space between would buy me some time. They killed both Shadow Dragons first turn, then I respawned one and reblocked, and they killed that and my first ettin turn 2. There damage output is so ridiculous, and all of them roll at least 2 gray for defense, so I cannot hurt them. My only hope is to use traps on the Dwarf guy, but he just rests and removes them. They blitzed through, wiped out my monsters, and leisurely picked up all the treasure while I threw everything I had at them. Barely made them break a sweat.

And that was all I could take.

The new overlord starts next week, and I will be out of this game for the rest of this campaign, possibly joining as a player next time, and possibly just ebaying the whole game off, as I can barely even look at it without feelings of rage at how not fun it was to be the overlord. I hate quitting at anything, but it was either quit, or take the game out back and burn it. Never in my life has a game experience been so miserable and degrading as to make me angry. I have GM/DM'd tons of games, been crushed in plenty of board games, and even gotten tossed around in similar games, but none of them had the obvious competitive disadvantage of the OL in this one. My players are good, very, very good, and that means I don't have a chance. Short of extreme swings in dice rolls, I doubt an OL exists that could beat them at this point in time.

Thats sad, and sometimes my feeling.

And I am not sure if I can play as a hero (again), since I now would feel sorry for the OL. But you just cant "play soft".

My group is very tactical experienced (OL (also others) and heros) and the heros take their time to plan everything and are prepared for everything. Even if there is a time constraint it just is not enough.

I am also close to Ebaying it off, but I want to talk about it here and perhaps there will be, someday, a hint of FFG what they intend to do for this game.

@FFG: Your game can be easily broken by good thinking heroes! And worse, as OL you only get a card as reward, thats just not encouraging.

@FFG: Your game can be easily broken by good thinking heroes! And worse, as OL you only get a card as reward, thats just not encouraging.

Frankly, I also see gamers who consider that the OL is overpowered.

They seem to be as serious as those who say that the heroes are overpowered.

In my games, I have seen the OL win and the OL loose quests.

And that is the experience of quite a lot of players.

The problem is not on FFG's side.

I would dare suggest that global judgements about Descent's alleged "unbalance" seem to me more and more wrong.

As someone stated somewhere, the question of "balance" could even be a bad one, as there are a host of factors which are involved in a game's outcome.

I don't worship Descent as a perfectly "balanced" game.

But saying that unbalance only leans on one side really seems wrong or very strange, after all the diverse opinions I have read (and after my own experience).

I also have doubts about an OL (or heroes) playing soundly and never winning a quest.

There must be fundamental errors made in the way the game is played.

On the French forum, there is a player who is constantly whining about the OL loosing (not speaking of his continuous negativity about FFG's designs).

He posted some videos of his games, and experimented players pointed out quite a lot of rules misinterpretations and errors.

The guy goes on complaining about the game, even though his incompetence has been shown.

Perhaps a step by step review of a given encounter/quest by someone who never wins as OL would be instructive and give elements of analysis to other experminented players?

A video would be the way to go.

I also felt as OL the Fun factor was low, especially when players are taking too long debating on the best move to go.

In the campaign games I played, both OL and player, Act 2 monsters counter-balance the player abilities/item/team up soon as they arrive.

In every encounter where one side stomped the other with almost no real challenge, it was only after reflection on the quest summary or rules that we realized there was something misread or overlooked. For example we were having stun take the entire turn to remove the condition instead of just one action, or in the quest the heroes were picking up items that the quest guide did not say the heroes could. It really is important to be a rule stickler if you want any kind of balance to last throughout the campaign, these misunderstands of rules and quests can cause one side to benefit so much that by Act 2 there is no hint of balance.

I also felt as OL the Fun factor was low, especially when players are taking too long debating on the best move to go.

In the campaign games I played, both OL and player, Act 2 monsters counter-balance the player abilities/item/team up soon as they arrive.

It takes a very rare person to play the OL. Most people, I am seeing, will not like the role. It's a good thing it's only one person. Personally, I don't like the hero roll. I don't like all the stuff, and I like to play underhanded (as seen in other games like Magic and Chess). I am also very good at the left field come backs. My heroes never count a win till they pass their objective. Overconfidence is their worst enemy.

My point is, fun factor for the OL isn't fun for everyone. If no one does, then it's hard. A rotation might need to be in play. I am wishing those that are having a hard time the best. Please try basic and epic plays for a while to fine tune the game to your liking and to find someone that is good at the roll. Someone that can lose and win gracefully. In the end, it can be fun for the person that likes the roll.

From playing both base game and LotW there is indeed unbalance. Not from base game but mainly from side quests. The problem is giving heroes more quests and more coins, more coins means more power for the heroes. If you want balance I wouldn't play with side quests. With side quests your also adding secret rooms to base game which adds even more search tokens!

From what I can tell you can even add more then 1 side quest during a campaign. Ouch! For OL.

But easy fix is dont use side quests with good hero players. Maybe this is something good for new hero players to give them a handy cap. There is also fun factor I like playing with LotW. However I would never add more then two side quests(one is bad enough balance wise).

Well, they got me. I finally had enough and asked to be replaced as overlord by one of the players. I tried all of the advice here, used the new cards and monsters, and really went all out with every trick I could pile up. I even managed to win the first part of the Frozen Spire, for my first encounter win against this group ever.

In part 2 I got wrecked. Any encounter that is not time sensitive is a joke. They killed all my monsters, positioned for my monsters to spawn, and waited. They knew they would slaughter my goblins before they could get past, and with no time pressure, and no competing objective (since I cannot open the prison door on my own), There was nothing I could do. I managed to drop two of them in one turn by double frenzy and double blood rage, but I couldn't get my goblins there in time to actually open the door. One big move later, all my goblins were dead and all the heroes were on their feet again. They leisurely grabbed all the treasure and beat down the prisoner and walked out, without it ever being close.

Next we did the dawn blade. I put one Shadow Dragon at each end of the hallway, hoping the combo of tanking monsters they couldn't walk past, and some space between would buy me some time. They killed both Shadow Dragons first turn, then I respawned one and reblocked, and they killed that and my first ettin turn 2. There damage output is so ridiculous, and all of them roll at least 2 gray for defense, so I cannot hurt them. My only hope is to use traps on the Dwarf guy, but he just rests and removes them. They blitzed through, wiped out my monsters, and leisurely picked up all the treasure while I threw everything I had at them. Barely made them break a sweat.

And that was all I could take.

The new overlord starts next week, and I will be out of this game for the rest of this campaign, possibly joining as a player next time, and possibly just ebaying the whole game off, as I can barely even look at it without feelings of rage at how not fun it was to be the overlord. I hate quitting at anything, but it was either quit, or take the game out back and burn it. Never in my life has a game experience been so miserable and degrading as to make me angry. I have GM/DM'd tons of games, been crushed in plenty of board games, and even gotten tossed around in similar games, but none of them had the obvious competitive disadvantage of the OL in this one. My players are good, very, very good, and that means I don't have a chance. Short of extreme swings in dice rolls, I doubt an OL exists that could beat them at this point in time.

Don't throw in the towl as OL just yet. The new OL lieutenant plastic figures are coming out soon. They will most likely buff the OL quite a bit.

-Cursain

Don't throw in the towl as OL just yet. The new OL lieutenant plastic figures are coming out soon. They will most likely buff the OL quite a bit.

-Cursain

The plot deck might be at the experience of the OL deck EXP and monster figures already on the field. All in all, it will take some getting use to/playing around with. I am still super excited about them.

The Plot decks answers the cry I hear allot on here about the OL having toys to play with and/or having a LT you can buff over time in the game. The agents won't be as powerful as the LT, but it's better to have them then squishy beasties.

Image with me, a field of kobolds. Oh, the cost to summon Zackerith to the field is one master and one minion? Pth. Sure. No problem. There are 7 more where that came from.

The plot deck might be at the experience of the OL deck EXP and monster figures already on the field. All in all, it will take some getting use to/playing around with. I am still super excited about them.

The Plot decks answers the cry I hear allot on here about the OL having toys to play with and/or having a LT you can buff over time in the game. The agents won't be as powerful as the LT, but it's better to have them then squishy beasties.

Image with me, a field of kobolds. Oh, the cost to summon Zackerith to the field is one master and one minion? Pth. Sure. No problem. There are 7 more where that came from.

That is exactly what I thought. If summoning the baddies is going to cost one master + one minion, I'll do that all day long. Couple with the number of models a group of kobolds brings to the table (starting nine figures) they are also good with Dark Ritual. I'm excited they are building the lieutenant's this way. It brings MUCH more versatility to the game.

It's time for the OL to get some toys that stick around and can be relied on. Tuning the deck is one thing, but having a reliable model is 2-3x greater in value.

I think plot idea is balanced enough. You spend tokens to do things and you give them to heroes to spend and they do things to you(fair enough). It's like everything else about descent timing,either heroes or OL. The option to insert a Lit. Could be useful. It's like chess kind of a pawn for a pawn thing(but that pawn trade my help your opponent more). Kinda cool really.

I like it! More options is always welcome. Can't wait.

Are the plot cards going to be SO broken that they need to give the heroes another action PER threat token? Honestly, I will have to play around with it in a few epics to see if it's worth it. My random cards, that I can sometimes contorl, have more punch then giving the heroes things. But who knows, I might be ahead of myself.

I might have a plot deck JUST for the abality to summon. >} I really like the LT Zackerith and I really wanted to do more with him. I am glad I have the chanse. He will be one of the first LT I get.

May I suggest that the initial topic's answer remains open: are the heroes really overpowered in the base game?

I don't think that anybody has a definitive answer to that question and I don't see the expansion additions as "corrections" of an otherwise flawed system - until a decisive proof is given about a global unbalance (in favour of one or the other side).

More I read about balance, more I tend to think that it is a wrong question.

Compared to other games, it really seems to be an obsession among the Descent players.

I am still wondering about the reasons of the phenomenon.

More I read about balance, more I tend to think that it is a wrong question.

Compared to other games, it really seems to be an obsession among the Descent players.

I am still wondering about the reasons of the phenomenon.

Because some players seem to keep experiencing very lopsided gameplay, and it appears to be due to game mechanics rather than player skill levels. What heroes do your heroes play with, Robin? Maybe I'll encourage my group to try them.

A balanced team. Don't play 2 characters from the same archetypes, even with differents careers :

1) Disciple healer is a must have if you struggle against OL.

2) So is Elf knight is a great tanker AND mover (dwarf is too slow, and berserker focus only on damage).

Then you're free to go...

3) Flame mage to do blast damage and play it easy, just throwing everything in the melee, or necromancer if you're a bit of a munchkiner, loving to custom your killing puppet and having some more strategic action choices.

4) Archer is quite efficient and easy to play, he's really useful if you don't have another damage dealer (the flame Mage). Thief is a great great mover and looter, nice to complete your team with tricks and really useful to collect money = buy stuff = counter balance your team tactical flaws against Overlord.

We have used varied heroes.

I don't believe that my personal experience has a lot of value, to evaluate the game's balance.

Anecdotical evidence is just that: anecdotical.

My point is that there are people complaining about the game's unbalance in both directions.

The idea that the OL is OP is far from proved, and people who consider it as a fact are about as wrong as those who consider that the heroes are OP.

There are too many factors involved, and that is why I think that absolute statements are not serious.

The quasi obsessional trial against the system is more and more suspect in my eyes.

Not that Descent is perfect - far from it, it has its limits, flaws and abstractions that some people don't like - but most of the complaints don't stem from thorough enough analyses.

So, I do consider that the question of balance is possibly much more complex and uninteresting that one would think at first thought.

I have to agree with Robin. There has to be something going on that cause people to have bad experience time and time again.

I know a big factor is not reading the rules well, or not knowing well enough after reading. In our first campaign we let my necromancer's guy hit twice per activation. Which means he would hit once, blow up, reanimate, hit twice. That also meant we let the familiar's activation be interrupted by the hero's activation. That is not right! And it ended up making the later part of the campaign one sided.

I, in all fairness, was using bones of woe and staff of shadows without them equipped to a LT. Also broken.

There are more erratas that neft the OL then I have seen the other way around. Maybe there are more heroes out there to fuss about it (since, frankly, there will always be more hero players then OL players), I don't know.

There is also the object of play style. Is your play style so far removed from what is needed for the OL to cause that? That's no dis on you.

If it's not that, there HAS to be something else. If it's game play, lets take a look. I haven't seen it yet. None of my heroes have the right to tell me I'm OP because of the win/lose balance is far more in their favor. In turn, I don't say they are OP because I am flexible enough to work around it. At least I have found ways for most of them. (Hexer is an issue. I sand bag "Uncontrollable Power" just for her, as an example).

Saying any game is balanced is funny. Video games are constantly patched,and board game rules are constantly adjusted including this one. Assuming people don't read rules right or are not playing as OL or hero is ridiculous to say the least. If I remember correctly some of you didn't know a Lit. Could equip one relic. But went on saying its balanced it needs proof. Look sometimes the proof is in the pudding. I see people on BGG doing same thing! Maybe some people are just blind.

I think the game plays best without side quests. (Any campaign). How can you argue that? More coins searching is good for who OL or heros? Am I so proud to say" im so good as an OL I can stop the heros from getting even more coin"? If you can then either your playing OL wrong or he is OP. But who doesn't like to play with side quests? I do.

I see a lot of comments about" crying about stuff". I wouldn't call it crying respectfully speaking call it constructive criticism. Constructive criticism it how companies like FFG, Games Workshop ect. Find either problems with a game or just to improve it (example plot system). The effort to improve a game is not done by assumption. They don't improve something unless they too have seen as well (through replay test or whatever). Even popular instresst in some good idea could have a factor.

As far as OL being OP I can't say it's easy to come up with a good OL deck. But who cares if it is? So you can KO a hero with the right cards in hand so what really(that certainly doesn't mean its OP). Just means you can KO something! That's where I'll agree with Robin heros and OL you can't really say either one is or isn't for sure OP. Its what you allow in your game that can make either seem OP like perfect hero choices,allowing side quests, and EVERYBODY from what I can see gets rules wrong from time to time.

But I wouldnt just say well 50% are saying OL is OP and other 50% is saying opposite. So it's balance? Lol that's not conclusive. Doesn't mean you got to agree either. Not all OL players post and not all hero players post so unless you get 100% of all players speaking up I wouldn't go by that. I like to keep all options on the table just incase.

I don't think there is Descent haters here more like descent improvers/lovers.

I just don't think that one can "improve" a game, when one does not have established the facts seriously.

It has nothing to do with being a "hater" of the game or not.

It is about building upon wrong (or unsufficient) data.

Nothing up to now has convinced me that a global judgement can be made about Descent's balance.

So no "improvement" has serious bases.

But a given house rule can be fun - or can appease some players' subjective impressions about the game.

It´s okay to debate though, because it's what forum are made for

It´s okay to debate though, because it's what forum are made for

Lol true!

I just don't think that one can "improve" a game, when one does not have established the facts seriously.

It has nothing to do with being a "hater" of the game or not.

It is about building upon wrong (or unsufficient) data.

Nothing up to now has convinced me that a global judgement can be made about Descent's balance.

So no "improvement" has serious bases.

But a given house rule can be fun - or can appease some players' subjective impressions about the game.

What about just good old playing the game? I find my heroes are simply richer while playing side quests. See I don't really need data because 5 people exsperianced this(more then i can remember).Take this example one more time do I need data to tell me if there's more coins if I add side quest(s)? But you can argue does OL have an advantage without side quest(s). Hmmm? I just thought about that I don't know. Well I don't know but they are much richer w/ side quest(s)....

They wouldn't go by "one" person anyway more like several.