Since we still have to wait for the rules (I don't have the Beta), and I'm a bit on pins and needles thinking about this and the future books, I thought I'd start a thread on what I hope the Force rules will allow when they finally arrive in full. Critcize and contribute as you like.

Before continuing: this is not a "Waa, there's no Jedi" thread. Even though I want Jedi and Sith (and hopefully other Force users, like the Nightsisters), I can wait. I'm even happy to wait if they get it right.

I never played WEG enough to really delve into the Force rules, but what I saw was overly complicated IMHO. Never mind it could never encompass the PT and TCW applications of it.

I detested the "Force Training" and suite of powers concept in Saga, it was just arbitrary and I ditched it completely for my own structure. And the powers themselves were so arbitrarily confined, and there were so many of them as the sourcebooks were released, that 20 levels of character development would never encompass what a master could or should know (never mind non-Force skills, like politics or diplomacy), or do in any particular encounter.

So, just a few hopeful constraints:

1. Flexbility of application. Force powers would be written in broad strokes to allow people to be creative in their application, eg: rather than myriad variations of "force push" that must be purchased separately (like force thrust, force slam, whirlwind, etc), the powers should instead define basic range and potential damage parameters, and leave the details to the players.
2. Unlimited application. Characters shouldn't be limited by something like "X Force Points per encounter". Instead they should roll any time they want to use the Force, even if it's to do the same thing they did last turn. Ideally being cornered like a rat would make it tempting to use dark side points.
3. Narrative meditation. Yoda meditates. Dooku meditates. A mechanic that makes meditation a desirable activity helps keep the flavour of what it means to truly tapping the Force.
4. Mundane skill interaction. Using the Force to enhance, say, piloting rolls, is something even untrained Force users can do (though it probably needs to be limited to reactive skills or situations, like Cool, increasing Piloting defense, quick draw, etc)
5. Tweakable balance. Some people want Force characters to be "on par" with other characters at the same XP. Personally I think they should be a cut above, and ideally the system will allow the GM to decide what's best for their game.

Thoughts?

whafrog said:

Without seeing the structure that will be in place from the core-book on, it's difficult to address 1-4. On 5 however, I would want to see Jedi as "on-par" with other characters at the same XP. From my viewpoint, if a Jedi (or any other PC) is to be a "cut-above", it should come from choices made in character creation and leveling, sacrificing other aspects of a charecter to make him/her/it stand out in one or two ways.

I think you'll be pretty happy, as the Beta rules touch on most of your points. I'll not get into too much detail but:

1. Flexibility of application - The powers are divided into Sense, Influncing minds, and telekinesis. The applications of these powers are not very strong to start, but are pretty broad. An experienced character who sinks a lot of training into his powers and talents will be able to pull off some impressive feats, especially if his GM is permissive.

2. Unlimited Application - Oh, you've got it, as long as you keep rolling white pips on your Force dice. If you get desperate, you can use the black pips, but that calls on the Dark Side, which will both exhaust you and turn Destiny against you. Don't toss aside your blaster yet, young Padawan.

3. Narrative Meditation - Uh, no, not mentioned. I suppose meditation could be a narrative aspect of recovering Strain, or part of really powerful Sense abilities that haven't been introduced.

4. Mundane Skill Interaction - Yup. Enhances social rolls, combat rolls, and a ton of perception rolls. Most of it is within the Talent Tree, so it's right in line with the "class" abilities everyone has.

5. Tweakable Balance - Goes hand-in-hand with that Flexibility of Application. The rules basically tell you the magnitude of the effects you can pull off, you'll have to pester your GM for the details.

Hope that helps.

Well, on the WEG side of things, the problem there was it was published well before the Prequels came out, when the Force really wasn't well fleshed-out by Lucas at that point, leaving the EU to fill in the gaps. Some authors, like Timothy Zahn, got it and did well. A lot of others didn't, and those are the ones that turn Luke into a nigh-unstoppable God Mode Sue.

As for you 5 points, if the rules in the EotE core rulebook match the Beta (which from the most recent preview article it seems it will), you should generally be pleased, especially as you're willing to wait for FFG to "get it right" in regards to Force-users.

1) The three official Force Powers that we have (Sense, Influence, and Move) pretty much cover what we see in the OT. The only exceptions are Vader's Force choke, his stopping Han's blaster fire with his gloved hand (could be construed as Han just failing to hit due to Vader's ranks in the Adversary talent plus the Sense Control Upgrade that lets you increse the difficulty of an attack against you, with the GM giving a flavorful description instead of just telling Han's player "sorry, you missed."), and the Emperor's Force lightning. For the Force choke and Force lightning, you can either leave those as "bad guy only special abilities," or you can adopt the Injure power that I created for my "Ways of the Force" fan supplment to cover that sort of thing.

2) At least where the Beta is concerned, you can attempt to use a Force power as often as you like. Granted, given the lower degree of power that Force Exiles have in EotE, you may have a tough time getting more than just the basic effect, as this game uses "Force Points" rolled on a Force die to determine just how powerful an effect you can pull off. But if you fail this turn, there's nothing stopping you from trying again next turn. Of course, constantly spamming your Force powers does fly in the face of how we see the Jedi generally act in regards to usage of the Force in the movies, but the EU is a bit more liberal with Force-users breaking out their powers, particularly in settings that take place outside the Rebellion Era.

3) That to me seems more like a role-playing thing, and something that doesn't really need a mechanic. It could just be that Yoda and Dooku are attempting to recover Strain, but I imagine that using medidation to acheive more potent Force effects is something to be considered around the time that FFG begins actively working on the Force & Destiny core rulebook.

4) There's a talent in the game called "Intense Focus," and while it's mechanically not listed as being Force-related, it does show up on the Force Exile talent tree, and I incorporated it into both my Force Mystic and Jedi Initiatie talent trees, with the idea being that the character is using the Force to improve a particularly skill attempt. Then again, a lot of what you describe is mechanically covered under existing talents, and it wouldn't be out of line to reflavor those sorts of talents as being the Force-user "drawing on the Force" instead of a more mundane rationale.

5) One thing that quite a few folks have noticed is that similar to WEG, being a dedicated Force-user is expensive in terms of XP costs. But similar to WEG, a character that's spent 50 XP on a Force Power is going to be capable of quite a bit more with that power than someone that's spent 50 XP on boosting up one of their skills. So a Force-user is only going to be as poweful as they are willing to spend their XP to acheive.

Thanks all, that sounds very promising. I'm not too concerned about the choking, blaster absorption, and lightning…I expect (hope) the first to be a nuance of Move, and the second two to be related to energy control of some kind.

@Donovan, you mentioned "spamming the Force", I'd agree if that was possible that would lose the flavour. I'm not into the God Mode Sue thing either. Even in TCW, where using the Force is almost commonplace, it's actually not used that often. If you break down the combat in an episode, there is a lot of back and forth to little effect, with the Force only coming into play at an opportune moment. In non-combat situations it's the passive "Sense" abilities that carry the day (or provide the lession). So what I'm expecting (hoping) from the rules is something like using the Force in combat would cost an action of some kind, and if you don't generate enough Force points (or light-side Force points) you basically lose that action; or you have to skip it and do something mundane.

Once I get the rules I look forward to reviewing your Ways of the Force, Donovan.

whafrog said:

Well, activating a Force Power in EotE is pretty much going to be your character's action, so if you fail to generate enough resources to properly activate that power, then your Force-user's action is wasted, just as it would be for a character using a blaster pistol that failed to generate any successes on their attack roll.

What I was referring to with the "spamming" comment was that there's nothing mechanically that prevents a Force-user from trying the same effect on their next turn, be it using the Move power to hurl an object at someone or Influence to alter the target's thoughts. That at least was one thing that Saga Edition certainly got right was that it captured that feel of the movies and TCW in that the Force was something to generally be used sparringly and not for every little thing. As it currently stands, EotE doesn't really have that.

I'll probably be releasing a slightly updated version of my "Ways of the Force" supplment within a week of the core rulebook hitting shelves, though most of it will be updating page references for official talents to point to the right place in the corebook rather than the Beta.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Meant to address this…what I meant about balance is that it's difficult to start with a mixed group, with a player who is a Jedi. The Jedi culture means a) you are learning 24/7, so you might know as much about computing as a hacker, while at the same time being as damaging as a soldier, while at the same time having a pretty good grasp of history, tactics, economics, etc; and b) their are tight reins on movement, so it pretty much precludes Padawans running around with a mixed bag of scoundrels without their Master. Even a Jedi youngling barely in their teens could give low XP characters a run for their money, and Padawans are only given solo missions once they're effectively near knighthood. A single Jedi Knight would/should be enough to make an experienced band of pirates back down.

So a set of players starting with a Force user either has to go the "you're too old for training"-"no I'm not!" route; or they start play as 13 year-olds and there's always a Jedi Knight/Master hovering within earshot; or … or the game has options to dispense with all pretense of balance, and tries to find a way to still keep it fun for everyone.

5) If you want Force-users to be a cut above the rest, give them more experience than everyone else. I really don't understand how that is so difficult for some people to do. The whole idea of using experience to gauge how capable characters are becomes pointless if having the same amount of experience means different levels of capability for different character types. I don't want yet another system that rewards munchkins by making Jedi an onbviously more powerful choice for them. The players that want to play other character types shouldn't feel punished for that choice once the rules for Jedi and more expansive force rules come out.

Of course, players can always make bad choices regarding how they improve their characters, but that is a different issue.

whafrog said:

On page 144 of the Beta book, under the "Recovering from Strain" header one can read

MrBaldwin said:

I guess it really is that simple, doh!

If you wanted, you could also do something like Mage, where they would get a certain bank of additional XP that was only usable to improve Force powers or specializations. I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but it's an interesting option.

I think it's much too early to speculate on some of this. Full-on Jedi won't be available until the third and final core book is released. My guess is that they will roughly follow the IV, V, VI model for this. Edge of the Empire happens before to right after A New Hope. The Rebellion will likely run from before Empire Strikes Back to just after. The Jedi will probably happen after Return of the Jedi so that they can justify having true Force-users without taking out too much obligation just for being one.

HAve you ever played Shadowrun? I would be happy if the Force rules somewhat resembled the magic system for that game.

• Caster-selectable spell power
• Inherent ability to alter effect shapes
• More power = more chance of self-inflicting damage
• etc.

If they could just modilfy that system with a bit more flexibility within the powers (though most Force powers are fairly well codified by now), and tie it in some way with the Force die, then it might serve as a good basis for a Force power system.

I've found my new project for Shadowrun: a physical/mystic adept who's a huge fan of Star Wars and wants to be a Jedi. We can go with a katana weapon focus instead of a lightsaber.

Lickintoad said:

I'm thinking the Shadowrun model wouldn't be the best means for FFG to use for Force usage, though some of what you cite already exists to a degree.

- Force-users aren't required to activate every single Upgrade they've purchased for a power, or even to use all of their respective Upgrades during a power's activation. Just becuase your F/S Exile has purchased both Magnitude Upgrades doesn't mean they are required to spend a generated Force Point to try and activate them.

- In a way, the "more power = greater self-inflicted damage" also exists, in the form of suffering Strain (and flipping a Destiny Point) to convert any Dark Side results into Light Side points.

- effect shapes don't really exist since FFG's Star Wars system is more narrative than tacticrunch; just the fact that the system uses loosely defined range bands instead of strict range increments is proof enough of that.

MrBaldwin said:

That might be the default.

In the 40k games, beginning characters from the first game (low level employees of the Inquisition) are supposed to be less (physically) powerful than those from the second (Kinda really badass pirates), who are less powerful than the characters from the third game (Space Marines, who are sorta warrior demigod dudes).

The idea was supposed to be that if you wanted to mix characters from the earlier games with the later games you would give the earlier characters extra XP to bump them up to the campaign level.

It didn't entirely work, because the balance between games was always off, and the strategy mean't that if you wanted to play Marines at all you had to start in the region where the system started to break down at high level, but that was the idea.

So it could be that starting Jedi will have more XP than EotE characters, and if you absolutely insist on trying to bring a non-jedi to a lightsaber fight they will get a bump.

Personally, as a player and GM, I would not want to see FFG award extra XP to Force Users. To me that would allow the F/S to advance their Force abilities along with their "mundane" abilities at the same rate as non-F/S PC's, thus creating an imbalance in the "Force", so to speak. I can see that breeding dissention amongst my players as well as making it more likely that all players will want to play force users to take advantage of that advantage.

To me, a life dedicated to the Force, is a life that is forgoing other things. IRL, putting all your focus in one subject is a sure way to learn it faster than by multi-learning many subjects. I see that correlation with the game as well.

If that does in fact turn up in the game, I for one will surely have to take a long hard look at its allowance before letting onto my table.

E

ejacobs said:

That would be the heart of the disagreement. To me, in addition to being able to use the Force, the Jedi were accomplished at a great many other things, and those other things were considered a requirement by the Jedi culture. Otherwise they'd be a bunch of magical bumpkins. Note: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that's how I feel about it, and I'd want to capture that sense in any campaign I run. If players want to start with beginning characters, and one of them wants to be a Jedi, then the Jedi will have to be close to knighthood (to have that kind of freedom), and therefore potent. It'll be up to me to keep the Jedi busy enough so that the others don't feel like he/she is taking over. If everybody wants to be a Jedi, then starting everyone as a 12 yo youngling with 0 extra XP would be fine.

The last SW game I played was Saga, and the inherent flaw in the levelling system is that eventually L5, 10, or 20 characters leave their lessers behind. Mechnically, an L1 stormtrooper can't even touch a L10 or L20-anything except for rolling criticals. So the reason I hadn't thought of extra XP is simply because the equivalent in Saga would be a bunch of L1s with an L5 or L6 Jedi, and handling that would be mechanical nightmare.

I don't have the Beta, but my sense is that in this game it is much different, and the power curve is much flatter, eg: base stormtroopers will always be somewhat dangerous.

July can't come soon enough!

Well, I see Jedi in the stories/show/movies as PC characters. They go on many many more missions and therefore earn a ton of xp. Starting out as younglings I would see them be very green to the ways of the galaxy, aside from some things they may have picked up prior to joining the Jedi Order. After that, it is entirely feasible that a Padawan might be sent out by their Master to gather some information, deliver a message, collect an artifact, etc…

In the prequals as well as in the cartoon series, Jedi Masters are constantly seen instructing their Padawans. Not so much in combat related stuff, but in more knowledge based/ theorycraft and such.

My main concern is game creep like seen in WH40KRP where a starting Inquisitor's agent can't play in a balanced party with an Assassin or Sororitas without being extremely high level, much less an Astartes.

E

ejacobs said:

Well said.

Let's also not forget that, if Force Users got to be inherently better than everyone else by getting bonus force user XP, EVERYONE would want to be a force user, and if you restricted it, the non-force users would cry havoc about the imbalance that would assuredly come from it.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the "time spent on the Force is time not spent on not the force" sentiment. Jedi can be excellent pilots, warriors, diplomats, slicers, or just about anything else. But in almost every case, their natural abilities in those areas are augmented by the force (which is already possible with diplomatic checks with one of the powers in the book.)

Think of it this way. Take Plo Koon, a Jedi Master known for his expert piloting skills. Now take Han Solo, the one and only. Both of them are amazing pilots. If the two of them were in a starfighter dogfight for some reason, there's a good chance that either side could win, though Plo Koon's precognitive force abilities would probably help him get the edge.

Now, strip Plo Koon of his force powers. Suddenly the balance is heavily in Han's favor. I'm sure Plo Koon would still give him a run for his money, but Plo Koon's naturally adept and proficient skills in flying were furthur augmented by his force sensitivity. But ultimately, Plo Koon is a jedi, not a starship captain. For Han, ships are like a second skin for him.

In this case, I'd say that Han's Pilot (space) skill would be 5. Plo Koon's might be 3, which is honestly very good. But, with X unnamed force ability, he is commiting two of his many, many force die (being a jedi master) to give him a +2 bonus to his piloting skill of 3. Between that and his sense powers and other abilities, he can have an edge on Han. Without it, Han has the advantage, since he has more experience piloting without relying on his other natural abilities (aka he has more XP to spend on his pilot skill without having to sink it into force powers ).

I hope that makes a little sense!

Endrik Tenebris said:

That sounds like a very good way to handle it to me. Otherwise the imbalance just gets ridiculous. Player's should never be surpassed in their specialties by a Jedi's natural abilities without the Force coming into it. Some degree of niche protection would be good.

>>>Let's also not forget that, if Force Users got to be inherently better than everyone else by getting bonus force user XP, EVERYONE would want to be a force user<<<

Like I have said before, if the Jedi haters expect the Jedi lovers to STFU and play non Jedi when the group is doing Edge of the Empire, then the Jedi haters can **** well STFU and play Jedi when the group is doing Force and Destiny.

That is the advantage of the thematic games. You are not just playing Star Wars. You are playing Edge of the Empire, which focuses on characters like Han Solo, doing the kind of things Han Solo did before he met Luke. Ideally, rather than having players trying to pull the game in different directions to suit their own characters, they can work togeather to create one mood.

But when the time comes to play Jedi, get with the program and do Jedi stuff:-

See, I understand that the Edge of the Empire system is designed to be played as a bunch of fringers in the Galactic Empire era, but my dudes are going to be playing in the Old Republic Era, and one of the people is a former Sith initiate. I don't see why we have to say "NO JEDI NO SITH NO FUN" right now, especially with such a great baseline force system in place right now. It would be so very easy to run a campaign of all jedi padawans with the system we have in place right now. It would require a tiny bit of homebrewing, especially if you wanted more force powers, but it is doable. While the system isn't force-heavy at the time, it isn't force-forbidding.

And I never said that jedi haters or jedi lovers should STFU. I personally love force sensitives, but they do get too much love sometimes. That aside, my comment was purely from a game mechanics standpoint. I, as a player, would be profoundly upset if my friend the force user just got bonus XP for being a force user, nothing more.

It would be like getting paid minimum wage while your friend that does the same job just as well and that started at the same time as you makes 10 bucks an hour.

And as for the "Don't play a jedi here, but play a jedi there," I believe you are being far too binary. What people play shouldn't be restricted to the system. I for one plan on combining each of these three books together as they come out. I do wholeheartedly believe that people should be restricted based on what the group decides is going to be the era and the situation that everyone starts in, but that's really it.

For example, playing a Jedi Knight with a bunch of smugglers and spice dealers might get a little weird because the Jedi is going to be constantly trying to fight against illegal stuff, while everyone else IS the illegal stuff. It is much like dealing with Paladins in 3.5/Pathfinder. There is a time and a place for everything.

But on that same note, if I was running an All-Jedi campaign where everyone was padawans, and someone wanted to play a non force-sensitive guard posted at the Jedi Temple, I would totally allow that. Would he feel left out? No. If anything, by being the only non force-sensitive, he would have a unique time to shine, since his skills would be more honed than other people. It would be very ATLA Sokka, and that idea really appeals to me.

Quite simply, I can offer one suggestion: Think outside the box. The theme of EotE is "Yes!" You are playing a thematic game *ONLY WHEN YOU WANT TO*. If my players wanted to play a squadron of stormtroopers using the EotE system, you'd better believe I would let them. Sure, the second book that is coming out would lend to that much stronger. But if my players wanted to do it NOW, then I would let them.

The most important thing is to HAVE FUN!

@ErikB: please go away. I posted in the OP that this is *NOT* a thread to whine about whether Jedi are in EotE. Go sing that one note elsewhere.

@Endrik Tenebris: thanks for the example, it makes sense. Really I'm the one who should STFU, since I don't have the Beta and am talking out my nethers when I talk about boosting XP for Jedi. I just didn't like the way Saga handled any of it, and I'm really jazzed about this game so far, and its potential. So I'm having a hard time keeping a lid on my enthusiasm

My take is that people aren't against Jedi, Lightsabers or the Force. Nobody needs to STFU, we're all fans of Star Wars here. I think it comes down to group interactions and expectations of your players. I've GM'd a few different systems in my time and the constant complaint I've heard about Jedi in SW games is that they outshined non-force using characters. In my own opinion the best campaigns are played by groups that cooperate and each individual PC is given a chance to shine.

The concern that others have raised is really that Jedi, if not balanced mechanically, will basically overlap with everyone else's niche and steal the limelight. That's totally fine for films and TV (it's why we love them so much) and even some RPG Groups can handle that, but I would say it is a fair assumption that for most groups the non-Jedi players would get bored if their characters didn't feel special or useful.

My experience has been running two groups of 6 players with no Jedi/Force sensitive characters in either party. Each player really gets a chance to shine, the combat specialists rain down death, the non-combat specialists show up and save they day to fix the hyperdrive or open a sealed door as the enemy bears down on them. These stories are recounted and told between sessions and it reinforces the party dynamic that everyone is contributing.

To the OP I'd say that it's your group and game and you know both of them the best, but if I was in your shoes I'd always keep a careful eye on who is contributing to the group and making sure the Jedi doesn't start taking up all the screen time. Also consider some ideas on how you can match them (even in the Old Republic era) to a lower power level. Perhaps it's a failed Jedi or an untrained (too old) force sensitive. One example from the EU that comes to mind is Lorian Nod, who was a failed Jedi, Pirate and then Elected Official: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lorian_Nod