about guided by Quaithe

By sky_cuson, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

I have two questions about it.

1) Can I put a character with "no attachment" ?

2) If the card attached by it should be revealed for it's rationality ?

A facedown card has no text, so even if "no attachments" is printed on it when it's facedown, it is will not be active text. So the answer is yes you can attach Guided by the Quaithe that you just used to put a character/location into the shadows, that has the "no attachments" keyword.

No, you don't need to reveal the facedown card to prove to the opponent that it's a legal card to have Guided by the Quaithe attached to it. If your game ends and you don't ever bring the card out of the shadows, you then reveal the card to your opponent to prove it was a legal play.

if I move "guided by Quaithe" to another card,what happen?

GbQ becomes unattached, so the previously attached card returns to your hand.

Note that only GbQ can only be attached to a card in shadows by its own text, so it would have to be moved to a character and would become a blank attachment (I'm not 100% sure about this).

And if the attached card is ever moved out of shadows, GbQ is discarded from play.

So I can put any card into shadow by it, and return that to my hand by discard guided by Quaithe before the game over?

Bear with me as I try to follow your question.

You are only allowed to put a location or character into the shadows using GbtQ. Once GbtQ is discarded(and the card is still in the shadows), the card in the shadows returns to your hand. If you put an attachment or event into the shadows, then that would be illegal.

Khudzlin - I can't tell either if it has a play restriction. After re-reading it, I think GbtQ remains attached to the card once it pops out of the shadows. It might be one of the reasons it is a unique event.

Khudzlin said:

GbQ becomes unattached, so the previously attached card returns to your hand.

Note that only GbQ can only be attached to a card in shadows by its own text, so it would have to be moved to a character and would become a blank attachment (I'm not 100% sure about this).

And if the attached card is ever moved out of shadows, GbQ is discarded from play.

Actually it would retain all of its text. There's a lasting effect giving it that text. It also doesn't have an "only cards in Shadows" play restriction from the gained text, so it would move and retain all traits and text, though they'd be relatively meaningless as there is no mechanic in the game for having a card already in play enter play.

Here's the kicker and I don't believe there is anything in the rules contradicting this. Guided by Qaithe doesn't lose its Any Phase text when it becomes an attachment. You can, theoretically, have a field day with it and just chain use it

Additionally, there is nothing to imply that Guided by Qaithe becomes unattached when the attached card enters play from Shadows. I don't see any reason it would be discarded. The text even implies this as it explicitly outlines that the attached card is only returned if it is still in Shadows.

I'll be glad to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. This is going to be a wacky card in actual play if I am.

It seems almost as if it's meant to be chainable, and that's most likely why it has the unique crest (otherwise you could have three of them going and causing all kinds of mayhem). You can use it to put something into shadows, pay to bring it out of shadows, and then use it to put something else into shadows. Could have some very interesting uses.

You cannot trigger an event that is in play as another card type. The reason they have any gained text at all is because of the lasting effect that was created from originally playing it.

From the FAQ's Frequently Asked Questions section:

If an event card is in play as an attachment,
can I trigger its event text?

No. The core rules read, "event cards are
played from your hand for their text effect."
If an event card is in play and functioning as
another card type, its text cannot be triggered
in unless another effect enables you to do so.

Right, my bad, I've seen that before too… That's why it has quotations enclosing its "attachment text". I blame Mdc, he fooled me, lol.

J_Roel said:

Right, my bad, I've seen that before too… That's why it has quotations enclosing its "attachment text". I blame Mdc, he fooled me, lol.

That doesn't inherently can the chainability. If it's still in play, you can pop it back into your hand and repeat it. I could see some shenanigans with that Maester that allows you to bounce attachments possibly.

Also, I have never heard of this concept of "event text". While the intent of the answer is obvious, there is no construct within the rules that says the "event text" is no longer relevant. Why is it considered "event text" and not "attachment text"? As this is not explicitly explained within the rules it will probably need to be noted if anyone ever asks to have it explained. I know there was a question on the boards not long ago about Drogon as an attachment (from the CCG). It clearly is not covered by this question as it is "character text" and not "event text". Does this apply to Banners? Can I bounce around Banner characters? This question is unanswered by that specific FAQ answer even if you assume that extrapolating it for characters is correct.

Playing the event from your hand is a cost of triggering it, in essence, so you cannot trigger the Any Phase ability on the event after it has become an attachment. This is, as far as I know, common knowledge, and I'm a little embarassed that I forgot about it earlier…

Straight from the FAQ (FAQ section):

If an event card is in play as an attachment, can I trigger its event text?
No. The core rules read, "event cards are played from your hand for their text effect." If an event card is in play and functioning as another card type, its text cannot be triggered in unless another effect enables you to do so.

Banners are not subject to this, since they are not event cards. So they can be triggered from play, whether they are characters or attachments.

Btw, the rules would be less confusing if events did not enter play as other card types but created cards with their text, like several CCG's do.

J_Roel said:

Playing the event from your hand is a cost of triggering it, in essence, so you cannot trigger the Any Phase ability on the event after it has become an attachment. This is, as far as I know, common knowledge, and I'm a little embarassed that I forgot about it earlier…

Theory bomb! This has nothing to do with TO rulings and should be ignored for TO purposes.

Good god… The rules for events are totally borked. And I mean totally borked. Like I'm sitting here amused at how these rules just totally miss the mark. I wish you luck trying to make sense of it without resorting to "because that's how we play it". This is partially tongue-in-cheek, but the rules for events are also full of a ton of holes.

Here are the lines of logic that need refuting:

From the rulebook:
"Event cards are played from your hand for their text effect. After an event card effect has been resolved, it is immediately placed into your discard pile. Though many events’ text abilities refer to a specific House, events are always considered neutral. Event cards are distinguished by a bird pattern to the left of their rules text."

From 4.4:
"Event cards are “played” by placing the card on the table, paying the specified cost, and triggering the effect."

If the effect doesn't resolve it doesn't leave play as it clearly says it must resolve. Why does cancelling an effect cause it to discard? Also note that playing the card is actually not a part of its cost. I can get behind resolved as meaning whether or not the event is successful.

From 3.14
"Event cards can be triggered from your hand using an action."

So now they can both be triggered from the board and triggered from hand. This means you don't have to actually "play" the event to trigger it as 4.4 clearly defines playing an event as its own process that does not involve triggering the effect from hand. Also, since it's not played, it just stays in your hand. Oooooo, infinite events. Nice.

From Event Cards Section, Cost Sub-Section
"The cost of an event is the resources you must pay to play the event. A Lannister Pays His Debts has a cost of "kneel one of your
^ characters." Other costs might include kneeling influence, paying gold, or discarding cards. An easy way to identify the cost is the formula "Do X to do Y" in which the first part, do X, is the cost. If you cannot pay the cost of an event, you may not play that event. Not all events have a cost."

Again, playing the card to the table is not listed as a cost. However, 4.4 and 3.14 do not allow for triggering an event from the table. BUT WAIT!!! Guided By Qaithe is no longer an event while it's on the table!!! These rules can be ignored!!

From the Player Action section
"To "take a player action" is to do one of the following:

1) Play a character, location, or attachment card from your hand (during the marshalling phase, and by the active player only). A Game of Thrones LCG Timing Structure and Flowcharts

2) Play an event card from your hand (this is also called "triggering" an event card ability)."

From the Responses section
"Responses are not actions, but are effects that may be triggered by players when a specific opportunity arises within an action window."

And this is why section 3.14 exists because Response events would be useless cardboard without it. BUT WAIT!!! TRIGGERING AN EVENT FROM YOUR HAND IS NOT PLAYING IT!!! YAY FAQ!!! (Playing an event is clearly defined in 4.4)

Paper Shield
"Response: Cancel the effects of an event card just played that does not have a gold or an influence cost."

So basically if you choose to invoke 3.14 you can totally nullify Paper Shield. 3.14 is not the same as playing an event card (as outlined in 4.4).

Moribund State For Events
"When an event card is played during steps 1, 2, or 5 of an action window, it enters a moribund state and is only actually moved to the discard or dead pile in step 6 of the action window in which it is played."

Well this section is nonsense as the rules clearly state that playing an event is a player action (4.4).

"If an event card is in play as an attachment, can I trigger its event text?
No. The core rules read, "event cards are played from your hand for their text effect." If an event card is in play and functioning as another card type, its text cannot be triggered in unless another effect enables you to do so."

Yea, so this isn't relevant. There is no such thing as "event text" (it's literally listed no where in the FAQ except for this question). Also, Guided by Qaithe is an attachment at that point. This is an outright ruling that they decided to hide in the questions, so what does that even make it? If this section is explicitly clarifications of ambiguous rules, it is meaningless as the rules for events aren't all that ambiguous, just bad.

Oh the lulz… This was entertaining to me.