Protege said:

Thanks, I enjoyed that, but you for some reason didn't get my point, which was that your anecdote is pointless and proves nothing in ways of predicting in any way what sales would be, what level of popularity the game will have beyond your immediate gaming area/community. Which basically means you cannot make any proper and sound assumptions that will be in any way valid beyond your local area, plus a small part of an online community that actually parttakes in this pointless discussion. In that case your anecdote could as easily be constructed and a lie, because its worthless and would do the same trick - its absolutely nothing to build any sound and rational arguments on, simple as that. It's as worthless as my anecdotes about how popular the game is over here, how our spending and purchasing power exceeds yours and all that, it doesn't matter … it says little to nothing, and is a poor basis for an arguments about the success or quality of a game including Jedi or not…

My tinfoil hat I only wear when going out in public, for a drink, don't want them commie-NSA to see me!!

selderane said:

I don't have to try, I'm a natural. You also missed the point, which I admit was not spelled out in capital letters and based on assumptions… it doesn't matter if his anecdote is true, or a lie, its pointless and nothing to base an argument on in my opinion, because its limited to a small(ish) geographical area, a limited sample of people that are hardly representative for the greater gaming community (aka gamer nation if you will).

Keep your tips about social ineptitude to yourself, I'm doing fine.

selderane said:

And yet you seem quite okay with ErikB, Protege, and FuriousGret saying the exact same sort of thing to those that disagree with them. Nicely done.

If anything, the thing that looks to be turning people off of this game isn't the lack of Jedi, it's that they don't care for the dice system. I've got several gamers in my area that have zero interest in playing EotE or any of FFG's other Star Wars RPG offerings not because of the lack of Jedi (all but one of them has every expressed interest in playing a Force-user of any stripe), but because they don't like the game mechanics plus the fact that they've got the choice of either Saga Edition or WEG's D6 system to play instead. Gamgee's post above is but on example of this, and there are folks that have little interset in even giving FFG's new system a try in the first place as they're not keen on having to use special dice. Lack of Jedi isn't really going to be a factor for those folks, as they're happy with D6, Saga Edition, or even some homebrewed system hack for an RPG system they do like.

Mouthymerc is probably right that FFG didn't just decide on their product line's game plan without doing some substantial market research to see what they could do different to allow their product line to flourish instead of languish with mediocre sales the way that WotC's run did. And if their research suggested that folks are getting tired of "Jedi this" and "Sith that," then they're going to put Jedi, Sith, and other major Force-users on the backburner. Not saying their research is perfect (there's no such thing as "perfect" market research), but it's probably a hell of a lot better and more through than anyone here could manage.

Donovan Morningfire said:

1) Point.

2) +1 Market research is at best imprecise, but still a lot better than wishful thinking.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I responded to what I saw. So how about giving someone you don't know the benefit of the doubt before you start insinuating?

Ask next time. It's what adults do.

selderane said:

Having to waive the "adult" card is hardly a badge of post-adolescent behaviour; also you use it as if "adult" is a positively loaded term.

Also, since you want to start a trend of giving advice in arrogant ways: next time don't react to one post in such a whiny and big-for-your-boots manner, do your research, its what rational people do…

This right here? This sniping back and forth? This is why no one wants these threads. They ALWAYS turn into this for some reason. It's the same formula - someone starts a thread with a comment about how they don't like the absence of Jedi in the system, there's some back-and-forth, and we end up with absolutely nothing productive at the end of the day.

Can we all just agree to drop it at this point? To stop trying to score cheap points on people by questioning their veracity or accusing them of various personality flaws?

Andrew Tatro said:

if the track record of half dozen threads on this topic since Beta rulebook was released, apparently not.

As I said earlier, best solution for FFG is to post a sticky thread giving a brief rundown explaining that Jedi are not an element of Edge of the Empire, that Jedi will be coming in 2015, and that further threads on this topic will be closed and repeat offenders warned/banned for CoC violations.

Fine. I'll try.

So, how can we reduce this down to anything worth discussing? If at all possible and meaningful?

1) Some people are miffed at not getting Jedi straight off the bat: which I guess is fine. I think we'd all, at least most, agree it would be ace to have them now.

• This being said, does this actually spell doom for the system? I doubt it, worse decisions have been made with other games and systems, and they are still alive, kicking and have a fan- and player-base that provides income, and perhaps even some profit.
• Is it necessary to express pointless whiny-mmo-forum trantrums about this and the "dire" consequences it will have for FFG when oneself, and one's group will not buy into it? No, but this doesn't mean that one is barred from expressing regret about what one find lacking; although disregarding the rationale behind the release plan as "stoopid" or "bad" or whatever, doesn't really endear readers and fellow fans.
• There are already rules in the game that support early depictions and portrayals of Jedi (barring force grip/telekinetic kill), there are even stats for Lightsabers. What is actually missing? And where is the creative instinct that rpgs activate in people?
• Not having Jedi now might be bad (for some), but considering the beta-test, the revisions made over those 10 (? or 11?) weeks does show that high-power force abilities and stuff akin to what you see in kotor, tfu and swtor will need care and thorough design and testing. Something I'd rather have happen in-house before release, so that I don't have to download errata, and in short order buy a revision of the game (as with OCR, RCR and then SE).
• This is, the way I see it, a long term release plan, for continued support, thematic modules and adventures, and rules. It is perhaps not a genius plan, but I think it will prove better than the d20 strategy. This is, as far as I understand and can compare, similar to White Wolf's strategy for their various WoD games. Thematic, more or less compatible, and focused on story, narration, immersion, rather than numbers, rules and totality in one book. It will provide income for them, fun and games for us - and presumably less revisions and editions of the game due to poor design and hasted decisions to make one big, complete, rulebook.

2) The power of definition isn't with us or you guys, its with me. I'm only kidding. The power of definition is strictly speaking with FFG and LF (and now also Disney). Star Wars is more than Jedi. True Jedi is distinctly Star Wars, and iconic, but its not the only aspect or iconic side with Star Wars.

• There is the Millennium Falcon, Death Star, Nebulon-B and the X-wing (amongst others).
• Boba Fett
• The Sarlacc
• Hutts
• Dianoga
• Some people love to read Denning and his messing with Star Wars and anything related to the Force, others prefer Stackpole and Allston and their Rogue squadron books.
• Some even enjoyed the NJO-series a lot, I mean why don't we have stats for the Vong?!?!?!?!!

A better solution than trying to continue this thread would probably be what Dono is suggesting.

Or, they could quit pissing about and do Jedi earlier than gencon 2015…

Personally i think the Jedi amgle been used so much in the game that we lost sight of what hte star wars universe truly was about. In the time when jedi was all around they were a small minority. What of all the other people, I think Edge of the Empire done a great job of bring the reality of the universe to life and done it very well…I think this look at what the universe can be and how we can expand on the many games in the past. i played them all from the d6 days, i like this system the best actually. Just my personal opinion

Thanks everyone for your contributions to the discussion, even those who disagree. I appreciate those who kept the conversation civil, a rare thing in forums, and for those who chose not too, so it goes. I really have nothing more to add but feel free to continue.

Jegergryte said:

This is very much true. FFG seems to have enjoyed quite a bit of success with the WH40K RPG line, which follows a very similar pattern (same fundamental rules system, but different books for whichever flavor of WH40K game you want to play). White Wolf also had success with their original World of Darkness line which followed a similar pattern (though part of their success was how different their material was from D&D, which had oversaturated the market).

WotC tried the "all in one" approach with each of their d20 core books, with mixed results depending on who you aske. Yes, you got everything in one book,but you only got the bare essentials. I've been a Star Wars gamer long enough to remember all the kavitching and whining about how each of the d20 corebooks wasn't able to allow a player to replicate Cool Thing X, most frequently with Force-users in general. This became a big issue when Attack of the Clones hit screens, as the RCR didn't have a way to really represent Yoda's ability to counter Force Lightning with just his bare hands. Saga Edition saw the same when an overly vocal minority complained that Esoteric Force Effect Y (such as true invisiblity, walking through walls, putting unwilling targets in comatose states, screwing with their equilibrium, or similar wierd EU powers) wasn't listed in the core rulebook. You probably had people doing the same with the much-vaunted WEG D6 version, but the internet didn't really exist back then so there wasn't a means for people to express their discontent that they had to buy additional books to get the rules for other starships or Force powers.

As I've stated, I wouldn't have minded a bit more material for Force-users, namely a couple other specializations such as a Jedi Trainee/Initiate and a Force Adept that's not entirely self-taught the way a F/S Exile is, but I don't think FFG made a huge blunder by not including them, and I'm willing to use my own creativity to cover the perceived gap until FFG does decide to cover such things, be it in 2015 when "Force & Destiny" is released, or maybe a year sooner with some material in "Age of Rebellion" (if that is indeed the ESB of FFG's trilogy of core rulebooks, since it was Empire that Luke really started delving into the Jedi side of things). Maybe those added specializations will crop up in "Age of Rebellion" to expand the player options with regards to the Force.

Going by the powers we have now, the basic structure is in place, so there's really not anything left to playtest, as the only factor not officially covered is Force Ratings above a 2, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that every extra Force die that gets rolled when trying to generate Force Points grants a better chance of rolling LS points and thus better odds of activating not only the Basic power but also various Upgrades. Three Force Points using Move nets you the Basic Effect, any Strength Upgrades, and any Range Upgrades you've purchased, and while it's possible with 2 Force dice, it's far more likely at 3 Force Dice and almost a given a 4 or more Force Dice, making it one heck of a reliable means of dishing out damage, particularly if there's anything that's Silhoutte 3 or larger that's laying around.

Hey guys:

ErikB said:

Yes of course. If they follow the brilliant and elaborate release plan and strategy for the RPG you present here we'll get a balanced system that rocks and FFG will make lots of money. Apply for a job at FFG as strategic marketing consultant - your visions are wasted on these forums.

ErikB said:

Seeing as how we're getting Edge of the Empire within a couple weeks, well before GenCon 2013 (August), FFG is already planning on releasing Force & Destiny before GenCon/August 2015. Were it not for a few unspecified delays, then we'd have gotten Edge of the Empire in early May of 2013. So odds are good we'll get Age of Rebellion and Force & Destiny in May… of their respective years.

And in case you've missed it, if you really must have Jedi right now, there's already an official framework in place that fits with the default era that EotE is set in (early Rebellion Era), and there are quite a few fan-created options to fill that niche in between now and 2015, some of which are quite good. You won't be able to recreate Mace Windu or Obi-Wan Kenobi, but they'll do as a stop-gap. So it's not like there are zero options to play "Jedi," which seems to be the basis of your constant fit-pitching on this particular topic.

What we're ultimately debating here is the design strategy that FFG have laid down. They’ve never asked for our feedback on it and we can all appreciate it’s not trivial to come up with a rulebook. IMHO as a community our energy is best spent focusing on how we can supplement the framework given in the core rulebook than any hope that FFG is going to change it’s entire product strategy when the community is, at best, split over the idea.

I’m curious around the split of people who would like to get Jedi rules sooner vs. those that okay with the current strategy and if they are mostly GMs or PCs in either of those groups.

I’m also curious how many people who want to use/play Jedi in their game have tried the fan made supplements? I appreciate that people prefer official versions to rules (I’m that way myself) but if a fraction of the energy and passion towards Jedi PCs was focused there I feel we’d have a really strong set of community generated rules.

My own EoTE experience is as a GM and the constant complaint I've heard about Jedi in previous SW games is that they outshined non-force using characters. In my own opinion the best campaigns are played by groups that cooperate and each individual PC is given a chance to shine.

The concern that others have raised is really that Jedi, if not balanced mechanically, will basically overlap with everyone else's niche and steal the limelight. That's totally fine for films and TV (it's why we love them so much) and even some RPG Groups can handle that, but I would say it is a fair assumption that for most groups the non-Jedi players would get bored if their characters didn't feel special or useful.

My experience has been running two groups of 6 players with no Jedi/Force sensitive characters in either party. Each player really gets a chance to shine, the combat specialists rain down death, the non-combat specialists show up and save they day to fix the hyperdrive or open a sealed door as the enemy bears down on them. These stories are recounted and told between sessions and it reinforces the party dynamic that everyone is contributing.

I’d like to preserve that feeling for as long as possible. It may be a false assumption that time between now and 2015 will be spent developing and polishing the Jedi rules but I think it’s fair gamble to make. I can also understand to some (many?) people that the point of playing Star Wars game is to play as a Jedi and why they would be disappointed. Though again I refer back to my first paragraph and the getting Jedi sooner ship has already sailed.

Good thoughts from Nashable.

I am currently loving the narrative dice system, the feel of the game, and (although I like any other gamer out there would love to have a copy of Force & Destiny in my hands right now) I am cool with their current release schedule. FFG has a fantastic track record of supporting their games and, yes, listening to their fanbase. You can't please everyone all the time, so it's no surprise that there is disappointment. But as a GM for EotE and an occasional player, it's surpassed all my expectations for a Star Wars RPG. I'll get to Jedi in a moment, but in my experience it's only been players with big personalities whose PCs have outshone the others, Jedi or not. I digress…

I have created my own Jedi supplement (probably one of those to which Dono was referring earlier, the one that DarthGM didn't make)…which I think is accessible from my signature. If not, here's a link to the PDF. It's still a work in progress, so take it as you will. One of the things I like so far about this system is its hackability Once you have the basics down, it's easy to generate your own content. Harder to game-balance it of course. BUT anyways, I have played a bit with some characters created from my own "Jedi Career" in alternate eras (Old Republic, Dark Times, and NJO) and am running a play by post set in the Legacy Era with a couple "Jedi" characters. So far, things have been a lot of fun. I agree with Nashable that if some energy was spent actually CREATING stuff for this game instead of COMPLAINING…it'd be pretty cool. Y'know, fan-made modules, fan-generated threats and NPCs, and maybe some good ol' fashioned online collaboration. Also, complaining rots your brains. Stanford study. Google it.

So far, my face-to-face gaming group loves everything about EotE (they have an inclination towards the Scoundrel campaigns anyway) and I am finding it to be an EXCELLENT system for Play By Post and video chat gaming.

And if there's something I don't like about the game (something small like no Jedi) I change it. No big deal. But the framework provided is just so useable. Love it.

Rikoshi's Super-Short Argument on Why PC Archetype Parity is Important to Enjoyability at the Gaming Table™:

Has anyone ever played "Rifts"?

Rikoshi said:

Oh you just had to go there eh? Heh heh.

mouthymerc said:

Hey, if it gets the point across, I will go to those dark corners of the gaming world if I have to.

Rikoshi said:

Hopefully not that many, but hopefully many more people than have honestly tried to play F.A.T.A.L. (aka the gold-standard in nonsensical crap-tastic game design aka the one RPG that I am glad to have nevery played)

But yeah, Rifts is a classic example of how unbalanced class design can lead to a lot of issues. Glitterboys and Juicers out of just the corebook are worrisome enough, and the splatbooks just get worse, with the Cosmo-Knight being the pinnacle of over-powered cheesiness. It says something when a company has to release sourcebooks that massively beef-up several of the more poweful classes from the original rulebook just so they can keep pace with the newer classes released in later sourcebooks. Then again, I'm not convinced Siembieda is all that great at game design either. Or at least not at realizing that things need to change and evolve, particularly when the base system itself requires at least half a dozen house rules to even be capable of being run. The last real innovation to his Palladium system was after a decade and half, he actually included rules for perception. Granted, just a small paragraph, but it's a step in the right direction. Which is a shame, because the base setting was a really neat idea, at least in the initial book.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

I get the feeling Erik's going to be disappointed even once we have Jedi. Two years of waiting only to find out they're not the godmode characters he wants, leaping tall buildings in a single bound and throwing star destroyers around with the wave of their hands. Once all three books are out I think all the character types will be interchangable in each theme. I don't think we will see a repeat of the 40K line where playing with different character types from different books can be difficult because of varying issues.

I dunno. It seems pretty much an exact replay of their 40k strategy so far.

So they will probably manage to hit a sweet spot where the Jedi haters are complaining that the Jedi are overpowered, and the people who actualy want to play Jedi have trouble getting their Jedi fantasies to play out right.

As ever, compromise just means no one gets exactly what they want.

--

For that matter, what do people think JJ Abrams is going to do with his Jedi? This is the guy who made Star Trek in to an action spectacular after all. And surely we would want the Star Wars RPG to be able to do the new Star Wars movies.

Well no, not an exact replay. They're not having to deal with a system handed to them that they didn't develop as they have here. Experience with Warahammer Fantasy and the development of the Star Wars game means they have a better handle on balancing mechanics. I think there will be a kuch more balanced game as a result. Or at least that is the intention.