ErikB said:

The fact that they're balancing the game now before adding jedi, taking two additional years to write the rules, acknowledging that previous systems that have tried to do everything only succeeded at doing all of them poorly, and creating a separate but compatible game system for the the real meat of the force users.

Also, they've demonstrated that they understand what it means to be a Jedi during the dark times.

Finally, and most importantly, they're ignoring whiney tools who are crying because they don't have Jedi in the game at launch.

So can you show us even ONE THING that indicates they aren't able to handle releasing a good game with their current plan, other than "NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW"?

-WJL

ErikB said:

The irony of this statement is that it implies that you don't have that confidence…so I can't imagine why having it NOWNOWNOW would be better…

ErikB said:

WTF does this even mean?

I get the impression that the machinegun rules were intended mostly for machineguns being a rare thing instead of something everyone has, which may be true in EotE but won't in the Rebel Alliance game, and the lightsaber rules were intended for use when they are a rare thing instead of something every character has, which might be true in EotE, but won't in the Jedi game.

ErikB said:

Right. And the different games will have different rules to appropriately reflect these changes.

Do you SERIOUSLY STILL not get that how lightsabers function EotE will NOT necessarily be how lightsabers function in F&D, and how autofire works in EotE will not necessarily be how AF works in AoR?

Are you so dense that you can't comprehend that this strategy is in fact the ONLY reason we have ANY SWRPG game from FFG in 2013 instead having to wait until 2015 for ALL OF THEM!?

And I'm NOT saying "oh we should just be happy they're giving us anything", because EotE is a REALLY F*CKING GOOD GAME! Its not perfect (I still think the dice are kinda borked), but so far its the most promising SW RPG yet.

-WJL

>>>Do you SERIOUSLY STILL not get that how lightsabers function EotE will NOT necessarily be how lightsabers function in F&D, and how autofire works in EotE will not necessarily be how AF works in AoR?<<<

People seem to care that the games be compatable with each other.

ErikB said:

Yeah, I'm one of them. Because they will work differently (and hopefully better) in the later games does not mean they will be incompatible!

If this is seriously the best you can do to defend your PoV, I think we're done here.

-WJL

BTW you continue to COMPLETELY fail to address my previous question to you:

LethalDose said:

'They cocked it up last time they tried it' doesn't count a concern?

For instance, the 40k games all work sufficently differently that it difficult to have characters from the various games adventuring togeather, but not differently enough that the later ones can fix the fundemenal issues inherited from WFRP.

ErikB said:

So you think a more appropriate solution would be to shove all those games into a single system, play test ALL the composite systems at the same time, release ALL of it at once, rushed out the door in 500+ page book (the core book is 448 as it stands already!)?

THIS IS THE SOLUTION YOU ARE DEMANDING FOR FFG'S SW RPG! And somehow you think it's a good idea!

So NO, it doesn't count because you've done NOTHING to support that your absurd "gimme everything now" solution is an improvement compared to what they actually ARE doing.

And WHAT fundamental issues inheirited from WFRP? That game's 3rd Ed runs fine for my table. And youve simply never stated this before. There is no evidence that this HAS been your concern from what you've stated in your posts. All you do is whine about is that there aren't Jedi NOW, and the only reason you've provided to support that is to say "I/people want Jedi".

-WJL

LethalDose said:

I don't think anyone really believes that. Or, rather, I don't think anyone of a sound mind actually believes that. The real question is "Do those who want to play full-blown Jedi that will not buy the game until those are included form a number large enough to affect sales such that that FFG should reconsider their current schedule?"

I don't know, honestly, and no one else knows, either. The only way to find out will be when the game is actually released. People who post on forums are not at all a scientific sample size to prove any point; they're biased toward the product, as those who lose interest are not as apt to continue posting.

All I know is my group. We'll be passing on the game. We prefer to play in the Old Republic era, where Force users are fairly numerous. We also love Saga Edition, so we're not really hurting for a brand new system. I keep an eye out on the news, though, seeing how things progress. But, honestly, by the time there are fully realized rules and game mechanics for all types of Force users, the game itself will probably be much too expensive to buy in, going by the prices of their Warhammer stuff.

And that's okay. SE is sufficiently fleshed out to allow a ton of game types, and it works for us. That doesn't mean I won't keep checking out the game. I might even mine the adventures for ideas for our group's preferred system.

Lickintoad said:

Sad to hear that you may be passing on the game, as it a truly excellent system.

Whilst I can understand your reasoning, have you discussed with your group the possibility of a non-Jedi focused game? (I am assuming this is the reasoning they prefer to stay in the Old Republic). Despite the great numbers of trained Force Users in the Old Republic era, there is still plenty of possibility for such a story to exist in the time period. There's also always the challenge and fun of playing something new.

If it really is necessary for you/your players to include fully trained Force Users in your games, have you looked at fan force supplements? There are a number around, and may cover what you're looking for.

At the very least, have you considered just running the Beginner's Box to see how your group likes it? You could do it as a one-off on a night to break up whatever games you're currently running/playing. The system is simple enough to learn in much less than a couple hours, if you're reluctant about a new system. If the experience is truly unenjoyable, then it's only a small cost in the end, and you'll have a set of dice handy if you decide to check out the game later when the Force-focused book is released. Or you could paint over them and put in numbers and use them as regular d6s, d8s, d12s I guess.

Otherwise, then just keep checking back from time to time, and hopefully it catches your eye in the future.

Lickintoad said:

I have found that there is just as much conjecture regarding the defense of FFG as there is childish behavior. The number of times I have read whiner in the last week shows kind of lack of introspection on their own characterization.

As for interest in the game. I have a story to tell about that. At Free RPG day yesterday, I was at a game store that had more than 100 people there at the time. The table was full and the storyteller of EotE had never ran or played it. Since I had, he asked for my assistance which I was glad to do. I should add in that he did a great job running it and we had a lot of fun. The table was laughing and we played for a few hours. However, before the game started and the players had yet to grabbed their characters, the table was full and it was surrounded by observers in which everyone was talking about the game in some capacity.

Soon one of the players said, “I don’t like that this game does not have full blown Jedi in it”. This was followed by three people who were standing by the table to say “I’m not going to buy it until there are Jedi in my hands” or “Yeah I think it’s lame” “This sucks…etc”. I found myself (I don’t know why) defending the game and explaining the time table of the 2015 and the release of Force & Destiny. I felt that it would be wrong of me not to defend it since I was helping run the game any everyone wanted to have a good time. The end result was that not a single person out of everyone sitting at the table and standing next to the table liked how EotE was doing their release. When the game was over, everyone who had never played it before said they really liked it but would not be buying it. Why? Because of the lack of Jedi support in it. This was after I explained that there would be rules for running a force sensitive character. Many of them (sitting or standing) said that they were aware of how FFG was doing it but did not like it at all.

It did not stop there…

A little later, after the game was over, I started talking to one of the guys who works at the shop who then said, “My group won’t play it because of the absurd release schedule and we have been getting a lot of people in here saying that as well…not sure how it’s going to do”. He also said that the lack of Jedi in the initial release was a huge turn off for him and his group. He did predicted that it would sell well enough because of its IP (Star Wars) but overall, he had not been getting a good vibe from customers.

Is this scientific? No, of course not. I compile that with my group that has zero interest in playing another scoundrel game as well as a friends group who has zero interest in playing a scoundrel game and you are left with very little people I have met in person who supports it. Don’t get me wrong. People who played it at the Free RPG day “did” enjoy the game. They simply had no interest in Cowboys in space. Heck, I didn’t even have to say that before someone else beat me to the phrase “cowboys in space”.

To be honest, I think, based on my observations of rereading many of the threads on the beta board, RPG.net, here and none forum related gamer interactions that the majority of people are not as jazzed about this outer rim game as some might think. Like I said, this is just an opinion.

At the end of the day it will come down to what it has always come down to, how the book sells.

Three books modeled on the Original Trilogy, a return to basics. I doubt the new movies have anything to do with FFG's original plan. That's not to say that we won't see supplements, but I doubt we'll see anything along the lines of The Old Republic or Legacy settings before Force & Destiny releases.

The initial three powers released in the beta gave them a good idea of how the powers played out. I doubt we'll be innundated with a great amount of powers as many can be rolled into few. The tree nature of powers means that many powers can be amalgamated. We'll probably see the same powers in Age of Rebellion as we have now, maybe the inclusion of one or two more (injury and/or healing seem obvious).

We may see a beginner Jedi spec in Age of Rebellion as it was The Empire Strikes Back where Luke really started down that path. The EotE has just one Force spec and I expect Age of Rebellion will be the same, unless they include something like an Imperial Inquisitor or Emperor's Hand spec. Full on Jedi specs will be saved for Force & Destiny.

The basic mechanics are all there for running the game and I doubt very much that they will change much over the course of the three core books. More rules may be added, such as group combat rules, or more comprehensive space dogfighting rules or capital ship combat, but I doubt the basic tenets will change. Lightsaber combat later on will be enhanced with use of Force talents and powers. They may come up with a lightsaber dueling mechanic, but I really don't see a need as it usually the character's abilities in using the Force that sets them apart (back to those Force talents and powers).

With each new core book, starting characters will probably begin with higher amounts of XP. All this means is that if you want to run a smuggler in a Force & Destiny game, you begin with the same amount of XP to make yourself comparable to those characters. I see parity with characters of the same amount of XP.

I get that some people think Jedi are the be all and end all of Star Wars, even if I don't agree. I definitely think there has been a lot of focus on them for the last 10-15 years though, so it is not surprising they are popular. They are the Wolverines of the Star Wars universe, raised on high on their pedestal. But I can really appreciate this back to roots game and am glad they are doing as they are.

Just some thoughts.

@Protege: At best the argument you're trying to make now is based upon anecdotal evidence, which could just as easily be constructed to support your position, hence its worthless… and could easily be a lie… its also poorly constructed - which means it could be true, but it sounds fake.

Still, people's love of Jedi is understood by all I think, but if people prefer kotor/tor Jedi to how they're portrayed first and foremost in the originalt trilogy, and secondly the prequels, thirdly in the clone wars series… then I think perhaps people have an odd view of Jedi. They are cool in those games sure, but they're more boring in those games and portrayals too, there is no depth, they're at best two-dimensional … it's less about philosophy and more about slashing and killing with a glowstick.

>>>Cowboys in space<<<

That really is an entirely valid way of doing Star Wars. And westerns are cool! Haven't you guys been playing Call of Juarez: Gunslinger? Didn't you watch Deadwood? Doesn't Bon Jovi's Blaze of Glory form an integral part of your personal soundtrack?

Or I am watching Sons of Anarchy at the moment, and that could drop straight in to Star Wars following the exploits of a Swoop Gang - hell, that show has to form a large part of the inspiration for the obligation mechanics!

It should be clear that I love Jedi as much as the next fan, but there are many things you can do with Star Wars.

.

..

.

..

Still don't think it is a good idea to put off Jedi for two years though.

:0)

Jegergryte said:

You’re adorable. Sorry to tell you but this did happen. I am not going hold my Iphone up with the recorder on in order to prove my point to you. I don’t really care that you think it’s a lie. You can wear your tinfoil hat and believe this scenario didn’t happen because you sleep better at night. Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyxmD_UAK4

mouthymerc said:

I think you are right. It will come down to sales. Even at the rate that it takes to write a book, I am sure there will be a Jedi book of some type out within the next eight months because of the high demand. Will it be Force & Destiny. No way, but I am guessing it will have a lot more information in it than the core book and probably enough to run a Jedi proper for most groups.

Look, I grew up on the Original Trilogy. I have been a Star Wars fan for more than 25 years. The Original Trilogy is simply amazing cinematically and as a narrative. However, we have moved on with the story. Generations have changed and the prequels regardless if people liked them or not, did happen. There were a fair number of Jedi. I don’t remember where I read it but I think even George Lucas said there were a lot more Jedi that survived Order 66 and Darth Vader’s purge than Yoda and Obi Wan.

I feel FFG want its cake and to eat it too. It wants to make a homage to the OT (I feel overly so) while trying to incorporate the new trilogy into the old movies. They are ignoring the needs of many players for the old republic and EU because they only are thinking of their childhood and not the masses which in truth (and is a little scary) grew up on the new films and clone wars. That is their buying audience.

As I have said before. Fantasy Flight Games is being very exclusive rather than inclusive. I think my experience on Saturday is indicative of this exclusiveness. Will it hurt the sales? I think yes but we will never know about it. Unless you know someone who works intimately with FFG, we will never hear that the sales were subpar for EotE. If the sales are low, It will not be because it is a unique system. It will be because it ignores Jedi (with a capital J) and pigeonholes the whole universe into Episode IV.

When I heard the reports for Gen Con with the first news of the Beta book and the absence of Jedi, I was also frustrated. I started playing Star Wars RPGs back in WEG's second edition when Heir to the Empire was still in hardcover, played both of the d20 versions, and ran two campaigns of Saga Edition. I have never been able to start play as a Jedi. To me, the Force is integral to Star Wars.

But, in September we bought copies of the Beta and started playing. I started with a Twi'lek that was an infant during the occupation of Ryloth during the Clone Wars. He was found by the Jedi but not taken as a Youngling because of the ongoing conflict. When Order 66 occured, the Jedi told his parents to get lost in the Outer Rim and forget about the Jedi. He became a Bounty Hunter/Survivalist and added Force Sensitive Exile. My character's Obsession Obligation is The Force. Using Lore, Xenology, and Education he is trying to piece together information about Force traditions without being found by the Empire. I am not sure what he will find. Since we are not part of the Rebellion, it isn't likely we will meet Luke. Being on the Outer Rim, we might find uncharted moons or go out into the Unknown Regions and find a new Force Tradition.

It is challenging because in the very first encounter the GM said that a Bounty Hunter knew my character was Force Sensitive. At that point I had just bought the Specialization and didn't even have any Talents or Powers. So we chatted about how that could be possible and kind of set some ground rules. We have earned about 150 XP and most of it has been put into the FSE Talent tree and the three Force Powers. But, I've kept it hidden from the rest of the party, and have only used the Sense power and one instance of Influence's Mind Trick in front of anyone else because he is hiding his abilities.

There are Jedi in the book. The Emperor is quoted a few times. Mara Jade in in a couple of images, one with a clearly ignited saber. There is a Emperor's Hand type character and a Forsaken Jedi in the NPC section. Seeing the finished book last Saturday, there are a lot more images of Jedi, not just Force Users of different or generic disciplines.

With the Force Sensitive Exile specialization, and the three Force power trees, you can make Force Users that do almost everything from the movies. The Deflect power could be represented by the Sense Ongoing ability that raises the character's Defense, and the two Talents that give a +1 Ranged or Melee Defense. Force Leaping and TK are done with the Move Power. The Jedi Mind Trick isn't called that, but it is clearly one of the Influence upgrades. The things from the movies that are absent from the Beta include Redirecting Blaster Bolts, Force Lightning, Force Healing, and Farseeing. I think these are all pretty simple to house rule, and the PDF from Donovan Morningfire is a good resource until they show up from FFG.

Also of note, while there are not specific Jedi careers, there are also not Mandalorian Supercommando, Black Sun Viggo, or Bothan Spynet careers. I have a feeling that Jedi will be built using a mix of FSE, and other, non-Force using Specializations. Jedi Guardians could be Hired Guns. Jedi Consulars might be Politicos. Jedi Shadows might be Assassins. The only change needed mechanically would be for the GM to allow weapon skill Talents to apply with Lightsabers as well as Ranged Light or Melee attacks. Even without the Talents, Lightsabers are rude weapons.

If you want to be Jedi during the Dark Times or early Rebellion, look to the excellent Dark Horse Star Wars comics The Dark Times, the Legacy comics (not to be confused with the novels, or the Coruscant Nights novels. Also, while it isn't during the Dark Times, the Knights of the Old Republic comics feature a Jedi on the run who hooks up with a band of fringers and has adventures on the Outer Rim. In all of these there is a conflict between acting as a Jedi should and acting appropriately to the situation. That is great fodder for ropleplaying.

I am having a great time with the system. I'd encourage people to check out the book when it comes out, but buy the Beginner Game for the abreviated rules and dice to get started. Have a talk about whether you want to use Jedi in your games or other traditions. The big hurdle is going to be getting your GM to allow a character from the Jedi faction and getting a Lightsaber. The faction part is mostly Roleplaying.

^^Agreed about the Dark Times comics! they are fantastic!

Protege said:

Doubt it. Beyond maybe a starting Jedi spec in Age of Rebellion I doubt we'll see full on Jedi anything until Force & Destiny.

Protege said:

The world of the movies and the world of the game (and the EU) are two different things. I am not one espouse that only Obi Wan and Yoda are around, or that even Luke is. The world of my Star Wars does not cleave to that of the movies unless I want it to. Nothing wrong with it if you want it to, but i prefer leaving things more open ended. While many people may enjoy Jedi, not everyone feels they are what makes Star Wars what it is. They are just one of many aspects. And yes they have been focused on a lot in the last 10-15 years.

Protege said:

One of the things I remember reading that when FFG looked at doing this si that they took a look at what had been done before and how effective it was. They also talked to fans of Star Wars and RPGs. So they did not just pull this out of their ass for nostalgia's sake. They found that many people wanted a return to basics. many were tired of being bombarded by jedi that and sith this. And their game has nothing to do with the new trilogy. Most people who become fans are initially exposed to the original trilogy first, even today. Sure there are fans of other aspects, but the OT still seems to be core for many and resonates strongly.

Protege said:

All because they didn't do Jedi right off. I sincerely doubt it. There are more fans of Star Wars in general than there are of Jedi specifically. And of all those fans of Jedi, not all are so hung up on them that they will avoid the game because there are no Jedi. In fact, I daresay that once the game gets out there officially, the fun factor will draw many people who are at this time saying they will not buy. In the end I think the game will do well.

Jegergryte said:

Dude, seriously? Were you trying to come off like a d-bag? Because you nailed it.

Here's a tip on getting on in life successfully: Assume one is telling the truth, and being honest in thier testimoy, until given cause to think otherwise.

As for the complaining about no Jedi, I'm sure fanboys were equally annoyed when Dark Heresy was published and they couldn't play as a Space Marine. I'm sure they swore off the line until they got what they wanted then too.

And they eventually did. So if not being able to play a Jedi keeps you from Edge of the Empire, that's fine. See you in 2015. I'll be here having adventures in a galaxy far, far, away regardless.

With the three groups I play in, and two online ones it isn't getting good early reception either for many of the reasons listed. You have to note that our group is an anomaly and has never had a Jedi except in one campaign (My main group, we have run 4-5 SAGA campaigns.) The slow release schedule, lack of options, high price to buy in, and the fact that SAGA is simpler and more flexible means that no one in any of my groups is liking it. There have been some half hearted attempts to play devils advocate, but even they admit this system has some major shortcomings. It doesn't look like it will be a "bad" system, but not a good one. And certainly nowhere near the standards of Saga which is somewhat of a holy grail of gaming to my main group.

Even in my other groups which only has one overlapping player the consensus is similar. No one likes it, and people are still prefering to run Saga over EoTE beginners/beta. So roughly 35 unique gamers don't like it from my town. Which has a small but dedicated core of table top gamers/board game players. This isn't just hate on FFG either as Warhammer 40k RPG line is met with stellar popularity with tons of games being run. I am running an Only War and Deathwatch, and planning a Black Crusade campaign. Playing in a Rogue Trader. And know of two other games going on in the 40k line in town. So no it isn't a hate for FFG, many just feel they haven't brought their A game to this product line and don't understand what makes a good Star Wars RPG.

Edit

I have to note that I know about 30 players who don't like the system. That is a very signifigant and large portion of the pen and paper audience in my local town. Probably a good… 30-40% of it I would say, of the "dedicated" ones who will buy supplements and tons of them if they like a line. Let's just put it this way, I buy enough books from this hobby store that when I suddenly say "This doesn't look too good" everyone's heads perk up in wonder. It also means a lot of lost money since if they stock things I don't buy then its usually takes forever to sell. I'm one of their biggest customers so when I say something like that even unintentionally I always curse myself for not being as neutral as I can. Since it can have a big effect on what they are willing to stock.

Wow. You are SO awesome! Would you autograph my arm, please?

I haven't played a lot of it, but to me the WH40K stuff is a lot denser and arcane than EotE. Character generation for Rogue Trader is a game in itself.

Star Wars Saga Edition is one of my favorite games, and I've run a couple campaigns using it. One was a Legacy Era (comics) game when only the core and Starships of the Galaxy was out. I think I could run a mean game for any era using only the core book. Part of that is because my groups have built a knowledge of the d20 system. Once a group gets used to the Edge of the Empire dice, I feel this system has that same potential for use in any era since the system is solid. Right now it is still mysterious to a lot of people, though.