Fine.

I say the question is -

Would you like to see Jedi sooner than 2015?

ErikB said:

DVeight said:

Voice said:

Agreed. I'm not sure I'll bother with the two next books for player characters. Jedi and soldiers in the war aren't very interresting for me compared to what this first book offers. Perhaps the players will meet a jedi… but playing one would break my vision of the game.

ErikB said:

You keep making the same mistake over and over. I haven't seen anyone here who doesn't want to have Jedi and sure, they would probably want them sooner if they were done right. The difference, though, is that they realize FFG is working towards them at the pace they want to. They haver a plan for their three core books, most of us know that plan, and most of us are content to see them implement their plan as they want to. We all look forward to seeing the future books and what they will encompass, especially considering how much we like EotE. Only a few people feel the need to DEMAND that they have their Jedi NOW or FFG is doing it wrong or is not in touch with their fanbase or other such nonsense. FFG has been upfront and transparent about how they are going to do THEIR version of Star Wars and they realize they can't please everyone. Not everyone enjoyed WEG's or WotC's versions, either. Just the way things are and it sucks when you are in the minority.

ErikB said:

This is a loaded question. Of course everybody 'wants' everything right now. I also want Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, and rules for Endor-scale fleet battles… but we're not getting those in EotE, either.

A fairer question would be:

"Are you content to wait for full-blown Jedi rules in 2015, or would you prefer to have them now, no matter what state those rules may be in?"

[EDIT: you were AluminumWolf? Ahh, it's all coming together now… ]

The question is entirely redundant as there are rules for Jedi and Force Sensitives in the rules as is.

Would you like to see Proper Jedi before gencon 2015?

--

FWIW, I think that the only way to really test a roleplaying system is to stick it out in the wild for a year or two and see how people respond to it. So them sitting on it for two or three years isn't going to do anything to make it better, or balanced or whatever, because it is only in the heat of actual play that a systems issue become apparent.

--

Samurai Jack would make a nice model for Jedi in this period. A party of Jedi from an earlier age are frozen in carbonite while battling an ancient evil. They awake thousands of years later to find the Jedi order destroyed and the galaxy ruled by the sith, possibly controlled by the ancient evil they were battling while frozen. So they walk the earth righting wrong and freeing the people from the tyranical rule of the Emperor. And if you were wondering why they don't blow up the Death Star or kill Vader, well clearly their own battle was with the shadowy evil that give Palpatine much of his power, and are off battling it while people from the modern age deal with their own problems. And indeed it is the banishment of said evil that weakens the sith and clouds their view of the future for the heroes we know to succeed.

ErikB said:

They aren't sitting on it. It hasn't been written yet.

They are testing the system. It will be easier for them to improve and hone the system WITHOUT Jedi in it, allowing a solid core system, that can then be further expanded and improved.

All you keep asking is if people want a $#!t game with Jedi now or a good game with Jedi later.

You obviously want the $#!t game with Jedi now and are mystified that people disagree.

-WJL

ErikB said:

We have been given a system that treats Jedis and Force Sensitives in a manner that is Proper given the theme and setting of the rulebook.

I'm already seeing Proper Jedi.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

I appreciate most of what you have contributed to this conversation. However you, and others, keep making the above statement without providing any real evidence of its veracity. How do you know that you are a "vast majority"? Do you have access to stats that back this assertion up? Please provide your inside information to the rest of us, as if it would even matter in regards to the validity of the topic anyway. At least I can point to the the numbers of views and enthusiasm with topics in the forum that discuss Jedi and the Force. It's by no means definitive but then I'm not making the Ad populum argument or trying to bully people to STFU with it.

I also find it ironic that you, Donovan Morningfire, of all people in this thread would chide others on being disappointed with the current rules support in regard to the Force and Force users. You did after all find them lacking enough so as to spend a good deal of time and effort to make a pretty decent supplement with Ways of the Force. If you had been as satisfied as you demand the rest of us to be why would you have felt the need to bother?

I'll restate my position for clarity: My group are fans of what FFG did with WHFRPG and are very excited about the new rules that they have developed for EotE because they are based in part on those rules. We were very much looking forward to using them until we found the lack of more comprehensive support of Force users. We don't care that they "chose" to do it this way, or believe the fallacious argument that the rules will somehow be better if we wait longer (there is no compelling argument as to why the rules could not be written and play-tested all at once, in fact quite the opposite, they did it with WHFRGP after all) nor do we think that that is the reason for their waiting. I believe they are waiting because they are going to do a tie in with SW7, which should be out around the same time. They could have scheduled in an Old Republic supplement between now and then or had fully fleshed out Force user rules now, but they choose not to. In any case none of these arguments matter because without the support for what we think are important elements of the overall Star Wars genre we are going to wait to buy in. It's not that we won't ever buy in or that we won't be very happy with what does eventually come out, only that if they want us to buy in sooner then they'll need to release these rules sooner. Thats all there is to it.

You don't have to agree, and I've never asked any of you to agree, nor do I need your permission to voice my opinions. I do appreciate feedback and I can even relate to your points of view, but I have very little patience for misrepresentation and trolling.

Sorry somehow the double quotes came in… I wish there was an editing function.

FuriousGreg said:

Actually, yes, we do have access to stats to back up that particular assertion. In fact, so do you. Let me lay it out for you.

We have a sampling of the people who are interested in the system *at all* right here on the forums.

Of those people, only a vanishingly small minority care enough about this topic to post in these threads at all.

Of those people, only a handful are on the side who argue, "NOW NOW NOW!".

FuriousGreg said:

This argument cuts both ways. What evidence does "we want Jedi now" camp have that THEY are actually the majority? And yes, individuals have claimed it repeatedly, even in this thread. I can go thru and cite them if you want.

FuriousGreg said:

I'm not going to try to fight a battle for DM, he can do that himself.

HOWEVER, I think if you want to start slinging $#!t in his direction about his position on FFG's decision to include to the force the way they because he wrote "The Ways of the Force" document, I would give you some advice:

You may want to actually READ it before sticking your finger in that light socket.

Specifically page one, "What this document is not" section, sentence #4. But then the whole first page in general.

FuriousGreg said:

There is. To the left of the time stamp in each post, the word 'edit' appears in bold in your posts' header for a period after you originally post it.

Although it frequently won't matter becaue the forum software is crap to begin with and it 10% of the time you try to quote stuff it just comes out a mess.

-WJL

Voice said:

In the spirit of fair argument here, such a sample size is not nearly large enough to form an informed opinion about the desires of the related community. Making such a judgment (for either side) based solely off the numbers of individuals who choose to post in this particular thread on this particular forum. Claiming the balance of opinion of EotE's target audience based on the vocality of the responses of those who post in an online foum is inherently biased as those who are inclined to post in an online forum are, by definition more vocal, or at least more willing to openly voice their opinions regarding the subject matter. Furthermore, based on the fact that this is the official forum of the game, it is rather likely that the majority of members of the actively posting community are interested, and in support of, the game and hence have a propensity to be more represented in threads such as these. I might also briefly point out the weighted manner in which you phrased your 'stats'.

For either side of this discussion, claiming that it's "what the majority wants" is inherently false, and neither is it remotely relevant.

FuriousGreg said:

As others have said, you can very easily do that research yourself, just using these very forums as well as the Beta sub-forum. You'll find that most of the posters past and present were content to not have Jedi Knights in the EotE book. And of those like me that would have liked more material than what we got, a few of us decided to do something about and create our own rules to cover those perceived gaps. Which if you actually read my posts, is something that I have suggested doing multiple times.

Regarding my work on "Ways of the Force," it's pretty obvious you really haven't been reading my posts or even read that document. I said on the first page of said supplment that I agree with FFG's decision to not publish rules for full-fledged Jedi Knights and their ilk until 2015. And that document itself doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what's out there in the EU regarding the Force, much less tackle proper Jedi Knights. One of the things I keep mentioning to people like you that are upset that FFG didn't provide full-blown rules on powerful Force-users is that if you don't want to wait, then create your own. There are folks over on the D20 Radio Forums that are working on Jedi Careers and even Lightsaber Form talent trees. Do I agree with them that such things are really needed? No, and I can understand and appreciate there are GMs that don't want any Force material at all, homebrew or official, for their games, but at the same time I can understand and apprecaite there a GMs who'd like that material, and are willing to put the time and energy into creating their own stuff instead of whining and bitching on a forum that the designers probably don't even look at in the first place.

I never said people were wrong for wanting material for Jedi and other Force stuff. What is wrong is people like ErikB and Protege constantly and repeatedly demanding that FFG release official material right now, right this very second and to hell with any design plans or thematic concepts that FFG might have for the product line, especially as the game is designed to be set primarily in the Rebellion Era, when Jedi were at their lowest point (fugitives on the run from a government that is actively trying to exterminate them and everything they believe in). They act like FFG owes them rules for Jedi Knights and full-blown Force-users, even when FFG has said that said rules will be coming, it's just not right now. And frankly, there's **** little to spare you from being painted with the exact same brush as those two self-entitled trolls, as many of your posts here have simply been whining about how you won't buy any of the EotE products if there's no Jedi.

Would I have liked there to been a bit more material in the Beta about Force-users? Yes, but I don't begrudge FFG for deciding not to include such material in a system that obviously needed some tweaking. Just the fact of how utterly broken the rules for Force Powers were in the printed Beta book proves that FFG made the right call in not providing full-blown Force-users right away.

But there's a huge difference between saying "Yeah, I'd like there to be more stuff on the Force, but I'm willing to take the time and effort to create my own stuff while I wait for the official stuff" and making belligerent demands every time the topic comes up that FFG cater to demands to provide official material right now.

So if you and your group don't want to play the game until FFG releases Force & Destiny in 2015, that's your call to make, and we'll see you in a couple years. We'll enjoy playing Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion during that time.

Leechman said:

+1

"This argument cuts both ways. What evidence does "we want Jedi now" camp have that THEY are actually the majority? And yes, individuals have claimed it repeatedly, even in this thread. I can go thru and cite them if you want."

I have not seen anyone on this thread say that, though I may have missed it so I'm happy to take you up on the offer to cite these examples. Especially ones that try and use it tell you to agree or STFU. Feel free to present them in digest form.

"I'm not going to try to fight a battle for DM, he can do that himself."

Then don't. But since you have…

"HOWEVER, I think if you want to start slinging $#!t in his direction about his position on FFG's decision to include to the force the way they because he wrote "The Ways of the Force" document, I would give you some advice:

You may want to actually READ it before sticking your finger in that light socket.

Specifically page one, "What this document is not" section, sentence #4. But then the whole first page in general."

I have read it and I've said I like it, several times. Read line one of "What this document is", in fact I'll copy it below for you, then read the document itself and see how it both tweaks and adds to the current RAW. My point was that DM wanted more than was presented in the RAW and so felt compelled to write a supplement. I'm not slinging sh*t at him, rather making a comparison to highlight the hypocrisy of chastising people for wanting more while wanting more him/herself.

"What this document is…
Instead, this supplement is simply one fan’s attempt to broaden the options for people like me that that enjoy playing and having Force that enjoy playing and having Forceusers in their Star Wars games."

I'm taking him at his word and DM's supplement is an addition to the current rules that fills a perceived gap. Saying you agree with the designers choices then adding content to " broaden the options" for Jedi because you want more than whats provided is fine, but saying that thats somehow different from people like me who also want more is being intellectually dishonest. You can't have it both ways.

"There is. To the left of the time stamp in each post, the word 'edit' appears in bold in your posts' header for a period after you originally post it.

Although it frequently won't matter becaue the forum software is crap to begin with and it 10% of the time you try to quote stuff it just comes out a mess.

-WJL"

Thanks, I looked but for some reason this button doesn't show up… Oh just found it. It'll disappear it wait too long though, good to know

"Actually, yes, we do have access to stats to back up that particular assertion. In fact, so do you. Let me lay it out for you.

We have a sampling of the people who are interested in the system *at all* right here on the forums.

Of those people, only a vanishingly small minority care enough about this topic to post in these threads at all.

Of those people, only a handful are on the side who argue, "NOW NOW NOW!"."

Leechman has answered this quite well, I have nothing further to add.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I'm off doing other stuff now so if you don't mind I'll respond tomorrow.

>>>how utterly broken the rules for Force Powers were in the printed Beta book<<<

Doesn't that kinda imply that they designed the rules for the first game without thinking about how they were going to expand them for the later two games, in a repeat of the strategy that failed so utterly with the 40k games?

ErikB said:

Do you understand what Beta means?

Well, what have you seen that gives you confidence they have put much thought in to how the system will cope with Jedi when the time comes?

ErikB said:

I think most of us are probably just thinking of the game we are presented with rather than worrying about the game they haven't made yet.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Exactly Doc.

When FFG shipped out the Beta, everything about it was new and untested outside of a select group. And only a complete and utterly ignorate half-wit would miss the fact that a whole lot of things needed to be revised/corrected/tweaked. Force Powers, PC droids, and Autofire mechanics were some of the big ones; even the initial structure for specializations got overhauled rather extensively. FFG's focus with the Beta was to work as many of the bugs out of the core system as possible. And frankly, they'd have been within their rights to not do a Beta at all, and simply have left it at "We're going to produce an RPG for the Star Wars universe… see ya in 2013 when the book releases!" and spent those intervening months doing more internal beta testing before releasing the EotE core rulebook. Now that the base mechanics for their Star Wars RPG line are in place, I'd be greatly surprised if FFG does beta books for either "Age of Rebellion" or "Force & Destiny." Much as the fans might want to see the new material early, the core mechanics of their RPG line have been fairly well tested, the dice mechanics working in a way that FFG feels is in line with their design vision. No more beta-testing really required.

It's pretty apparent that ErikB aka AluminumWolf doesn't have a Clue 1 how things actually work in the RPG industry, especially with licensed products. Speaking as someone that has worked as a freelance game designer and talked/corresponded with other game designers, I can tell you that the turn around time on RPG material is at least six months for material that the company owns the IP for (WotC owning D&D can crank out material for that line a lot quicker than they could back when they had the Star Wars license). Heck, it can take just a couple of months alone just for the writers to do their parts. Add in the fact it's a licensed property, and it could take anywhere from a few weeks to several months to get approvals from the license holder. From my freelance work with WotC, we were working at least a year in advance of when that particularly supplement was scheduled to be released, and that was with WotC having a pretty solid working relationship with the folks at Lucasfilm that handled the approvals process. Then there's also layout, book design, and artwork, which doesn't happen overnight, especially not if you want artwork of the caliber that FFG uses. So that's going to take longer still. And even if the material is going straight to PDF (which at this point, doesn't seem likely given past history with Star Wars RPGs and offering for-sale PDFs vs. free PDFs), there's still some delay to make sure everything "looks right." Make it a printed product, and that's a few more months (particularly if using an overseas printer like most gaming companies seem to use these days). So even in the unlikely event of FFG dropping everything else they are working on for the Star Wars RPG line and give the whiners full-fledged Jedi rules, it'd take at least six months, if not a year, to get that material. There's no way that FFG would simply give away something as highly anticapted as full rules for Jedi no matter the whiners want; after all, FFG is a for-profit business and they're well aware that "Force & Destiny" may well be their big seller in terms of their line of Star Wars RPG corebooks, so any Jedi rules that came out in advance of that book would also only be available for sale.

Of course, that requires one to ignore the fact that FFG did provide rules for "Jedi" as has been noted; they're simply just not called "Jedi" in Edge of the Empire, but rather are called Force-users. So in a way, we've already been given "beta rules" for testing Jedi PCs by way of the three initial Force Powers included towards the back of the EotE Beta rulebook. We've got stats for lightsabers (which also needed to be nerfed pretty extensivly from their initial version). Sounds like the beta testing for Jedi has pretty much already been done. Only thing missing are official careers and specializations, but FFG has already set a target date of 2015 for those. And anyone willing to take the time and look around can see the majority of the potential player base is okay with waiting, and a smaller portion are okay with using homebrewed material (their own or somebody else's) while waiting, and a smaller portion still that would be happy if FFG never did rules for Force-users beyond what's in EotE.

But those same overly-vocal whiners that are demanding rules for Jedi right now have repeatedly proven that they're pretty adept at ignoring anything logical reasoning that runs contrary to their self-entitled whining in the past, so I don't see why that won't change now.

"Patience Young Padawan" you will soon have your Jedi so till then use what lil FFG has put out or house rule Jedi if your party can't wait till then cause "At last we will have our Revenge"