What I see whenever I scan through these threads:

"I wants mah broken Jedis, and I wants em now!"

Seriously, it's like complaining that you're not going to see Star Wars 7 because 8 and 9 aren't going to be out for awhile. Whining because FFG won't furnish the house in the most decadent marble until after the foundation is laid and the walls and roof completed. Flaming because the cart isn't being put before the horse.

Considering how broken Jedi were in the previous rpgs, I think the real complaint is more along the lines of "I want to be the most powerful charecter in the group and FFG isn't letting me". Too bad. Don't buy the game. Go be angry in the corner while the rest of us play the game. If you feel a need to whine, whine about the game not being out for 3 more weeks with the rest of us. =D

bobfrankly said:

If you think that this is what has been said by those of us who are disappointed by the choices FFG has made regarding the time frame and the initial lack of support for Jedi/Sith then you should take a moment and actually read our posts, or not as you wish. In either case you might benefit from a reading comprehension class.

I can only speak for myself as to what I want but in answer to your second comment about how broken previous Jedi rules have been, this is pretty much why I started this topic in the first place. I like the new FFG rules, I like what they have done WHFRPG, and when I heard about this new set of rules I believed (and still do) that they will do a good job of Force users. My group feels the same way and were looking forward to getting EotE, that is until we found out there is essentially no support for Jedi/Sith or any other major force users. It's like releasing a new D&D without rules for Wizards above 1st level. We knew it was a Rebellion Era game but figured that the rules would include a somewhat fleshed out system for the use of the force as we were planning on shifting the era to something a little later (theres plenty of resources out there) and have a Jedi or two in our party.

However as we now know thats not whats happening, so given this is the only real place to expressing out disappointment that might actually be seen by the developers I posted. It seems my group is not alone in this opinion.

If not for people such as yourself misrepresenting us this topic would have burned out long ago. But don't let me stop you, please whine away.

After six pages of the same old "I want it" and "you can't have it" that has been done to death in other threads in this forum, I'm gonna try a different approach. I'm not going to be so vain as to say I know why FFG isn't releasing Jedi/Sith for two more years. I'm not going to say that you are wrong for wanting Jedi/Sith because they're central to your belief of what Star Wars is. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire by telling anyone how much they're whining. I will say as long time fan of Star Wars (30+ years), I am excited as hell to play a Han Solo or Chewbacca like character.

I've been running the game out of the beta book for five months now and the game runs great. I'm that guy in my gaming group who would run at playing a jedi, dual-wielding lightsabers and cutting everything down in my wake. I thought not having Jedi/Sith would suck as well. Having really gotten into the game (my PCs are at about 250 xp), it's become an afterthought. Believe me or don't. It doesn't really matter. My group has enjoyed the game as written and a couple of us enjoy coming on here and watching everyone call eachother whiney idiots about something that isn't going to change. Jedi aren't in the book. It's already on the boat.

Also, it sounds like the Jedi/Sith classes for F&D are being tested around the FFG office already. An employee of theirs may have unintentionally let it slip on the Order 66 podcast a few months back (which I totally don't listen to). So I'd consider them in their Alpha stages, but the rules have already been thrown together.

FuriousGreg said:

Selected Quotes from your topic opener:

"I'm sure there will be future books that cover other eras and have Jedi & Sith (KOTOR, New Republic) but until then I'm going to pass."

"So, I hope the designers are reading comments from people like me with the cash to spend on expensive RPGs like WHRPG and EotE and get a KOTOR or New Rebellion supplement with real Force users out ASAP, because until then I don't care how great the system may be, I'm going to pass."

Your perspective is that the game is worthless to you and many others, you want Jedi and you want them now. Hows my reading comprehension? My comments are also based on a wide reading of this and previous threads lurking and observing as the flames grow hotter. By large, the vocal pro-jedi either want the game now, want Jedi in it, or both, neglecting to consider the time investments in creating, testing, and finessing such details. It's not like FFG is completly neglecting or avoiding the subject, in fact I would submit that FFG is intending to do good by those who want Jedi by giving them their own book. I agree that FFG is doing a good job with the rules, but we differ in that I think it's great that FFG chose not to shoe-horn Jedi and Sith into this book that is already 448 pages and balanced from multiple play tests.

I also tire (like many) of the complaining about the lack of Jedi because FFG isn't advertising this as a Jedi RPG, or an expansive Star Wars universe RPG. They are advertising it as exactly what it is, a Star Wars RPG set on the Edge of the Empire. Those that expected a game based on the edge of the empire during the rebellion era to be full of deep Jedi rules need to revisit their lore.

The notion of the "paradigm shift" in gaming that some people proclaimed early on with the narrative system EotE supplies us with can perhaps as badly be used here (there has been no paradigm shift really) - instead of making an all-in-one complete game and system, they've decided to do it gradually, building something over time. A sound idea.

Of course as consumers we do no appreciate having to spend more than we want/need to, but as a company FFG needs profits, income and line of products that are good, interesting and will keep players buying. Without income they cannot make games.

Earlier iterations of the star wars rpgs (and many other systems/games) have had the complete-game-philosophy, or more or less complete game in one or a few books, released more or less simultaneously (dnd has usually three afaik, rolemaster also has three unless you can do without magic and/or combat). These are complete games, where addons come, but also games that are/were continuously revised due to balance issues, bad design decisions… the fact that they were complete games, so any extra material was made in a simila spirit, with focused and dedicated products: alien anthologies, equipment guides, starship catalogues (SE tried to remedy this somewhat)… great for players, bad for producers and designers. We get mediocre games, that are continuously revised - so in turn its bad for gamers too. After a revision any new and original stuff will hardly be compatible with earlier versions of the game.

The way FFG is doing this is also a way - potentially - to keep the game stable, with less revisions and simply more sturdy and better made. There are perhaps many ways of going about doing it, but I think a thematic approach is a good decision. It's modular, there is not one book everyone MUST have to play anything, well for now there is only one, but 2 years is simply not that long as some people seem to think, its less than 800 days. In three years (barring delays) we will have three games of Star Wars, focusing on three iconic aspects of Star Wars, apparently compatible, that can be used stand-alone or combined. This ensures three series of extra material, games of almost any type, and as long as they are not flops (which I doubt, but I'm biased so…) this strengthens the chances of continued support, that FFG keep the license, and therefore can continue to produce a quality game, I mean quality games, in a modular way.

WotC tried modular with SE, but they were stuck in the complete-all-in-one-game-system in one big book "paradigm", so while the line was somewhat successful, it wasn't great (but that is my biased opinion) - although I know its not because of that they didn't renew the license (well I think it was more and larger issues adding to it at least). Considering the state of the RPG business, that "paradigm" is not a winning strategy for but a few companies and a few select lines of games. At least that is my impression on this matter.

Jedi need to be powerful, but also in line with the game in such a way that they can shine ALONGSIDE other non-forcies. The current solution is pretty nice, and I'm real excited about where they will go with this and how they will take it further. I get it, people are miffed and used to a different approach. Toughen up, get aboard, adapt, try something new, test your limits and invest in roleplaying and the experience(s) this can give you, beyond ego-stroking and glowstick ejaculi.

whafrog said:

Yeah, because customers have never caused companies to change their business model or bad decisions…never…ever…ever. Just head nodding has always been the best strategy. That always works. After all companies always have their customers best interests in mind.

FuriousGreg said:

Right on bro!

i could not have said it better.

Protege said:

This!!!

FFG has the best gig ever. They only give you enough to play as Han Solo and charge you $60. Rather than 1 book at $60 that is SW, it costs you $180. NICE!

Not sure if I am going to support the game. My group does not want to play the Wild West with star ships. Think we will save our hard earned money.

Red Saber said:

Sayonara

Seriously, the way these threads go, FFG might be best served by putting up a locked sticky thread saying "Sorry, but there won't be Jedi until 2015" and locking any threads that crop about people complaining that Edge of the Empire doesn't have Jedi.

None of these threads have ever been productive, and have all degenerated into flame wars as each side gets increasingly nastier to the other and any attempts at reasoned explanations get thrown out the airlock in favor of venomous potshots.

This must also be related to the fan base that populates Star Wars I think.

Curiously, the new The One Ring rpg (a fantastic game by the way) is a system with no magic. In contrast with these forums, there, in the TOR forums has not been a war because someone wanted to play Gandalfs, Galadriels and Elronds and they could not due to the lack of a magic system.

Yepesnopes said:

Also, doesn't it focus on a smaller geographical area of Middle Earth? Have to pull out my copy and take a look as i seem to recall that it does.

mouthymerc said:

Indeed, it only focus on the region around the Mirkwood, inlcuding Dale, Esgaroth and the Lonely Mountain. Their idea is to expand the "playable regions" of Middle earth as they release supplements.

Still is a game acclaimed by the fans, which additionally has won many prices.

ErikB said:

Or, you know, you could either enjoy the game they are designing as they want to do it or not play it. People who want their Jedi have to wait, It sucks to be you, but you do have other alternatives.

Yepesnopes said:

That forum is a model of civility, especially considering how much more intense Tolkien fans are.

I think it may be linked to FFG. They are a much larger company than Cube 7, so it's more likely they end up with people wandering into their forums who just want to vent about how they are not going to buy the game.

I would say both franchises have equal numbers and equal magnitudes of "intense fans".

I think it would be fair to say that no magic in TOR is probably less controversial than no Jedi in Eote. Primarly because magic is far more difficult to define in that universe, especially if its set in the last years of the Third Age. Furthermore a number of "magic" using characters in the universe derive their powers from an object, rather than it being in them from birth/creation. I haven't read the rules regarding TOR rpg, but I imagine there is some allowance for magic/mystical items, and from there you could easily emulate most of the "magic" characters, with the exceptions of the wizards mind you.

The issue is that people focus on their idea of what is right. Some people, myself included to an extent, would have enjoyed a full system to cover all aspects of the force at launch, but can derive no lesser enjoyment from the direction FFG has gone and will hopefully appreciate a well-completed system in a couple years time. Other people simply ignore the fact that there ARE rules for force users and there ARE rules for Jedi and Force Sensitives in the EotE rules, they are simply adapted to fit the time and theme. However, because this adequate and logical adaptation to the overall theme of the design doesnt align with their view of what constitutes a Jedi, they ignore it all together.

It's not like people are entirely unable to play force sensitives or Jedi in the given rules. Try adapting your dogmatic view of what constitutes an adequate Jedi character to the theme and setting. How would he live? What would he do? I think you'll find the result will be quite similar to the options that FFG are presenting here.

There is not "No support". There is not "No Jedi".

There is only a lack of willingness to rationally adapt your view of what constitutes "Jedi" to the theme and setting. Even the greatest Jedi alive became little more than a Force Sensitive Exile during the reign of the Empire.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Indeed

My main reason for instantly liking the setting of EoE was the fact that the perspective was from Han Solos point of view rather than Luke Skywalkers. I love how FFG have made the SW setting a lot more compelling and adult, than just coloured glow sticks. :-p

The Outer Rim is my favorite place in the SW galaxy, the shady smugglers are my favorite group of people and as a GM I se so much more STORY here, than if they had added jedi. They wouldn't fit in and I would make house rules to keep them out of my game. FFG have somewhat restricted the force, in a very organic way. When we played the beta one of my players remarked that "The force is too expensive… it's not worth it". That's a sign that the rules work and are balanced the way they should be!

Gallows said:

No, it isn't. In fact, that's the opposite of balance - having an aspect of the game that's not worth pursuing is a pretty big problem. It's reminiscent of the "trap feats" found in some editions of D&D/Pathfinder; it would encourage system mastery rather than organic development of a character.

FWIW, I disagree with your player's assessment. Though there are a few problematic talents in the Force Exile tree, overall the Force section of the rules is fairly reasonably balanced. You sacrifice either raw skill power or the utility of your non-Force talents in order to gain the ability to approach situations in an unconventional fashion. Its biggest downside is that you only have two Force dice at most, but we've found that tends to work out okay when playing the sort of space scum you might typically find in EotE - they'll use the Dark Side without much consideration or second thought.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Very true. The Star Wars portion of the WotC forums suffered from much the same, as the higher volume of traffic lead to a much higher crap-to-content ratio, particularly in comparison to the active and frequently informative discussions that took place on the Holonet Forums (before it started suffering severe server issues that pretty much caused a lot of folks, self included, to simply write it off) or the d20 Radio forums (helped by an active staff of moderators that have no problem laying down the law if someone gets too unruly).

I think it's interesting to note that with Cubicle 7's One Ring game (which I really do like), they are taking the classic Tolkien approach to magic, in that Middle Earth magic is generally far more subtle than the flashy whiz-bang magic that you see in your average fantasy RPG, which was a problem when Iron Crown Enterprises and Decipher tried their hands at a Middle Earth RPG; they crammed in D&D style magic spells that had little relation to the works of Tolkien, particularly in the Third Age. I'll admit, it's been a long time since I read the Silmarillion, but the only time you really saw the "flashy" stuff in regards to magic was the First Age and maybe a bit in the Second Age. By the Fourth Age, the magic is pretty much gone with the passing of the Elves into the West.

Of course, what's interesting is that if you look at the Original Trilogy of Star Wars films, and just those films, then the Force is much the same. It's not commonplace (Han even ridicules it, and he's old enough that the Jedi were a real thing when he was a kid), and it's effects aren't totally in your face and flashy (the Emperor's Force lightning is a notable exception, but it's also a perversion of the Force). Obi-Wan could probably have easily fought his way through the Death Star given his prowess, yet he instead related on stealth and subtlty instead of hewing through bad guys like a chainsaw through tissue paper. He only broke out the lightsaber when he ran into Vader. Even when Luke was on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight, he wasn't constantly hurling large objects around or shattering the minds of his foes. Heck, one might even say that Luke's use of a "Force grip" effect on those two Gamorrean guards was just the use of the Influence Power on a couple of minions, the Strain damage being treated as Wound damage due to them being minions.

It could very well be that FFG is keeping that sort of thing in mind, and looking more towards the Original Trilogy and the early EU (before Luke got turned into a God Mode Sue under a bunch of less-than-capable authors). The Force is something that's rare and not very well understood in the Rebellion Era (which is pretty much where FFG seems to setting their three core rulebooks). The Rebel Alliance appropriated "May the Force be with you," as a way to give the Empire a great big middle figure, but they weren't overflowing with Jedi-in-training.

ErikB said:

Or maybe you could realize that the majority of the fans are perfectly content to wait until 2015, thus giving FFG's deisgn team the chance to get Jedi and similar Force-user done right intead of pushing through a bunch of poorly-balanced crap.

FFG is listening to the fan base, both here and on other forums and social media outlets, and the fans are saying "We love this game, and we're okay with not officially having full-blown Jedi PCs right away." Hate to shatter your delusions of self importance, but you are in the vast minority in this regard.

Besides, as was pointed out to you plenty of times before, all the basic elements are in place to be what amounts to a Jedi in EotE.

Are there stats for Lightsabers? Check, with suggestions for house-ruling in a Lightsaber skill.

Is there a specialization that centers on becoming a more proficient Force-user? Check.

Are there Force Powers to replicate the majority of what we saw Jedi do in the Original Trilogy? Check, with Vader's Force choke only being the major omission, but a GM can easily hand-wave that as a special application of the Move power that only Vader knows becuase he's a Big Bad Sith Lord.

Sure as hell sounds all the elements are there to create a PC that's a Jedi-in-Exile and living on the run from the Empire. And it's something that has been explained quite often, even back when your user handle was AlumninumWolf.

But as you've remarkably proven adept at ignoring any reasoned discussion in the past, I doubt this time will be any different.

We could always put it to a vote…

Donovan Morningfire said:

THIS!

Seriously, despite the so-called 'neutering' and 'lack' of Jedi/Force abilities in EotE, the *vast* majority of what we see Force users do in the original trilogy can be done by characters just using the rules presented in the Beta for EotE.

Keeping in mind that Jedi are *rare* as all get out in the span between the fall of the Republic, and the rise of the New Jedi Order, having the rules for virtually everything that Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Vader are seen doing is *more* than sufficient to play a hiding Jedi in the game. You're just not going to be playing young Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, or angst-ridden Anakin, because the rules we have for for the Orignal Trilogy 'hedge wizard' Jedi, not the Prequel Trilogy 'm*****f****** sorcerer' Jedi.

ErikB said:

You wouldn't be happy with the results. Do a count by user name in this thread. The folks who insist there have to be full-blown Prequel-grade Jedi *NOW* are severly outnumbered by the folks who think that the prospect of well designed, and well-balanced is worth waiting for.