I like the WH-RPG and how the whole system FFG has developed works and because of this I was very much looking forward to the upcoming release of EotE. That is until I found out how little support there will be for Force users.

I'm sure there will be future books that cover other eras and have Jedi & Sith (KOTOR, New Republic) but until then I'm going to pass.

I've read some of the arguments as to the scope of the game etc. and how its the Rebellion Era and there just aren't any Jedi around, but I honestly don't find those arguments compelling. I don't care that there are no Jedi in the very narrow time frame covered (it's just a few years after all and it's not the most interesting time to play in anyway), my players want to play Jedi. Everyone already knows all the important stuff is being done by the Skywalkers so all we get are the dregs of the Galaxy. Missions that don't mean anything in the grand scope of things aren't that exciting. My players, and myself, want to be the center of the action.

So, I hope the designers are reading comments from people like me with the cash to spend on expensive RPGs like WHRPG and EotE and get a KOTOR or New Rebellion supplement with real Force users out ASAP, because until then I don't care how great the system may be, I'm going to pass.

Thanks for adding nothing new or original to the argument now go away.

renegadethumper said:

Sure, I'll look for you. This is probably the best one. It links to several other times this topic has been brought up.

Here

here

here

or here.

Seriously, this has been done to death. You coming in here and intimating that those devs had best hurry up and get you some Jedi if they know what's good for them isn't helping you or anyone else.

FuriousGreg,
As others have mentioned, this topic has been beat to death. The last major thread turned into an all-out flame war with several people being attacked without good reason. Given the track record, probably best to simply let the subject alone.

Fantasy Flight Games made it pretty clear at the 2012 In-Flight Report that they have a specific game plan in regards to their Star Wars RPG, and that Jedi and other major Force-users are going to be the last of the core rulebooks released. They've likely put plenty of thought into the matter, taking a look at the track records of the prior Star Wars RPGs. And one of the biggest complaints about those? That Jedi PCs were too powerful. Either gradually (D6) or right away (OCR/RCR to an extent and Saga Edition due to how skills worked).

Unlike WotC who simply used their d20 system, FFG is pretty much creating a new system. Yes, it has some similarities to their WFRP3e line, but there's also a number of differences. There's a reason that FFG did a Beta to test the various rules for their new system, and if you read through the weekly updates, you'll see that a lot of things changed, with several Force powers getting a major overhaul in the Week 2 update. Similar case with the lightsaber, which was toned down from "broketastic" to "still pretty **** powerful."

Those two elements alone show that this system was not yet ready for full-blown Jedi. Also, FFG is keen on "themes" for their RPG lines, as the Warhammer 40K line aptly demonstrates. There's also been some growing discontent amidst the Star Wars fanbase about being inundated with Jedi, particularly in the wake of the Clone Wars TV series, and a desire for a "return to basics" of the Original Trilogy and the Rebellion Era, where Jedi weren't a dime a dozen and most of the leading heroes were skilled muggles.

But if you're really that desperate to have Jedi PCs from Day One, I suggest doing a web search for "EotE Jedi Careers." I know there's at least two versions of full-blown Jedi Careers on the web (the one by Phil "DarthGM" Maiakowski is the one I generally prefer). I've also put together a "Ways of the Force" supplment to expand upon Force-based options for Edge of the Empire. You won't find full-blown Jedi Knights, but I do offer a universal specialization that's not too powerful yet allows for a PC with some degree of Jedi training.

Donovan Morningfire said:

This, I totally agree with. One of my (many) problems with the prequels was that Jedi were too plentiful. From the OT, I always felt like, even at their hight as "guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy," the Jedi were pretty rare and mostly organized around individual, master/apprentice cells (Much like the, "One riot, one Ranger" model in Deadlands). This makes the idea of Darth Vader hunting them down far more plausible than the one-man army killer approach of the prequels.

>>>As others have mentioned, this topic has been beat to death.<<<

It is almost as if it matters to people.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I hear this from many SW gamers, but whenever I actually run anything like a Rebellion era game, the first question out of half of the players' mouths is, "Can I play a Jedi?" This is followed quickly by their reasons and ideas for why they should be essentially the equivalent of the next Luke Skywalker of the Rebellion era or why they survived Order 66 and should be powerful now, etc., etc….

I think part of this attitude/interest has been due to Jedi being OP in the systems, not to mention the fiction, of the last fifteen years. The players also consciously or subconsciously see the greater advantages for the Force in the rules of those systems and gravitate to it.

Greg, you want your players and yourself to the centre of the action??? Really struggling with this comment because any role playing game you do play with your friends, YOU ARE THE CENTRE OF THE ACTION. It does not matter what class or role your players are using, they innevitably are the centre of the action. I really fail to grasp how a particular class creates that 'feeling' over other classes. I also get it. The Jedi is the iconic class. I have one player that was very dissapointed that Jedi arent in. But in the end it comes down to what the designers have created and their intentions and your willingness/ability to keep an open, rather than closed, mind.

FuriousGreg said:

The only thing that FFG is going to look at is the sales of the books. If they sell well then they will continue on with their plan of producing three core books. If they don't sell well then they will need to re-evaluate. At this point the game is looking very popular so I don't see them changing things up any time soon.

DVeight said:

Actually, I totally see where he's coming from there and it's the same reason I don't set games in the rebellion era. It's not strictly because of the lack of Jedi (I put limits on how many Jedi can be played anyway), it's because of the nature of the timeframe. There is one major story going on there and it's someone elses story. During the rebellion era (and, to a lesser extent, the clone wars), everything truly important in the galaxy is being done by the skywalkers. They are the prophecied heroes, fighting the great, galactic evil, and any PC's in that time period are, at best, supporting cast. By the same token, you wouldn't want to play a Dune game set in the time of the first book. There's only one story happening then (or only one that matters) and it's Pauls story.

When the Wheel of Time RPG came out, I played in one particularly bad game, in which our PC party essentially set out to follow Rand al'thors group and basically just played through the events of "Eye of the World," having all the same encounters, just after the actual group had them. This was an extreme example but at it's core, this is the problem with running a game set in a heroic fantasy world, during the time the hero is taking his journey. It will never be your story, it's Luke Skywalkers story, you're just helping out a little,

That's why I prefer to set my games during the Legacy era, it gives all the visuals and themes of the OT wihout being shackled to someone elses story. However, I also don't foresee any trouble using EotE for that setting. The lack of Jedi shouldn't be a problem since most of the Jedi are in hiding (making them mechanically, some other career with hidden force powers).

I've heard others say that only the Legacy era affords them the freedom they need, but I don't get it - in the Legacy era, aren't you just playing second fiddle to Cade Skywalker's adventures, instead?

Anyway, I don't see any such problem with the Rebellion era in the first place. My favourite campaign ever involved liberating the Elrood sector during the GCW. Sure, we all knew the Rebels would eventually win the battle of Endor, but there were no such guarantees over in Elrood sector (and for the record, we had one Force-sensitive character, who did a very compelling job of playing a character slowly coming to grips with his own mysterious abilities).

Nyarlathotep5150 said:

Not for me. In my Star Wars Universe, Han Solo takes the money and runs, Luke gets shot down and killed by Vader, and the leaders of the Rebellion are scattered when Yavin is blasted to smithereens (most of them evacuate rather than sit in a war-room). Sounds like someone else is going to have to step up the Awesome.

FuriousGreg said:

Other than this posting board, I have heard quite a few people explain their anger and frustration with how FFG is doing this set up. Reasonable number of people at my local gaming store indicated that they would not be supporting the system as well because of its ant-Jedi stance. Will all the little protests make a difference, I hope so but I’m not holding my breath. I am looking forward to reading the book and seeing if I like it beyond what I have read. With that said, I do have some schadedfreude towards the product.

It is true that this topic has been done to death and I think it is a clear indicator that there is a strong Jedi base in Star Wars. My group is right there with you in that they are lack luster about EotE and very disappointed in its release schedule. Just bringing up the topic about EotE causes groans around the table and humorous jabs at its expense.

Be prepared for a lot of anger towards you from some on this board. People wanting Jedi in a star wars game is treated as dissension from the all knowing FFGs. The general rule is, if you don’t like Cowboys in space for your Star Wars, then you need to leave and come back in two years. Excellent marketing for a company. Very inclusive.

Protege said:

Oh, come on. "Anti-Jedi stance"? That's a bit rich, isn't it? They're trying to make a solid game that's fun to play. Who doesn't want that?

They're building this game from the ground up, hoping it'll last for years to come. In the meantime, play some TOR.

I. J. Thompson said:

Simple answer is, no. Cade Skywalker is not Luke or Anakin. He spends the vast majority of the series actively trying not to get involved and only takes a direct hand at the very end. The story was far larger than him. He was no hero and, in fact, the events would have progressed mostly the same without him. And that's without pointing out that there is a fifteen year gap between Kols death and the major events of the story, in which Cade is nothing more than a low key pirate (this is when my stories usually take place), or that you can set stories after the legacy war, in a completely untouched timeframe, inwhich there are many Jedi, Sith and Imperial Knights.

There are a couple schools of thought here. One is that there are more stories to be told than just the stories of the OT movies. And they can be just as grandios as the movies with your own villains and such. WEG had many successful years producing fun stories set during the rebellion. Not to mention the many stories that took place during the run of Marvel comics in between the movies. The other is Star Wars Infinities. RPGs, especially those that are modeled after a popular medium, are meant to allow you to play in that universe. Nothing says you have to follow what is happening in the movies or series it is based on. You can create your game in your image, taking inspiration from the source, but making the story completely your own. To say otherwise is to ignore one of the biggest things that RPGs allow you to do. Being a fan should just get you in the door, after that its up to you to have fun.

That being said, for some the Star Wars universe is all about Jedi for them and nothing else, so I can understand their frustration. At the end of the day, though, FFG has to follow their plan as long as it gives them the results they want. So far it seems to be giving them what they want.

I. J. Thompson said:

Well, if you're a minority that isn't being explicitly catered too, you're being oppressed, right?

I mean that how 'entitlement' works, right?

-WJL

Well, thank you all for your comments.

Since I just joined this forum I was unaware of how extensive the conversation about the subject of Jedi etc. had been discussed and when I did do a quick search nothing much came up, maybe I just wasn't specific enough with my search perimeters. So thank you again to those of you who posted links.

Regardless as a player who really is interested in this new incarnation of the game I have very few outlets in which to express my opinion except by posting on this forum or I suppose sending a letter directly to the design team. I somehow think that direct contact is unlikely so the forum is it.

The fantastic thing about online forums like this is that it gives people a way to connect and share their opinions and maybe even help designers gauge their potential audience/customers better and possibly make changes to their initial plans if there seems to be enough support to warrant it.

The other great thing about online forums is that if you're not interested in or think a point has be over-discussed you aren't being forced to join the discussion, you can ignore it and let those who are interested have at it. It's an odd pathology that people subject themselves to things that they really have no desire to be part of…

As for the subject itself (lack of support for Jedi and the choice of the very narrow timeframe of the Rebellion Era) it seems that some people get what I'm talking about and I appreciate their responses. I don't think there is much to add right now except to say that I'm not trying to stop anyone from playing in this Era or that you can't have great adventures in it. I have and you can.

What I want before of spend my money on this system (which I think will be very good) is support for other, more open Eras to play in, where the potential to be the galaxy's prime movers is not so overshadowed by known events is greater. Since this forum is pretty much the only place to express this opinion where the design team may potentially see it, well here it is. Here is a customer who is very interested in your product and is waiting to buy in until these things are available. It seems that I am not alone in this opinion and I hope that the game does well enough that these supplements come to pass sooner as opposed to later.

A last little bit on Jedi/Sith. I get that the galaxy isn't filled with Jedi and I think cannon supports this idea, especially in the Rebellon Era. The Jedi and their counterparts the Sith are like fantasy knights; few and the stuff of legends. It's unfortunate that EA's Old Republic MMO kind of turned Jedi and such in to items easily found in bulk at the local space Costco, but it is telling that so many people want to play these roles in the genre. Where there is smoke there is fire, and I think that the designers of this new system should be aware that they are risking their house burning down if they don't address it.

Thats all, have a nice day.

FuriousGreg said:

The format of these forums suck. Long load times and other various issues. I haven't even tried the search function. Ah well, at least we have a forum.

FuriousGreg said:

The designers may or may not lurk here. Back during the beta days they were on here more, but I assume they have other priorities now. You can opine all you want, but just be prepared to deal with all the responses, or not, as you pointed out it is up to you whether to respond. For the most part, it seems that a majority of people are quite content with the game so far. That's not to say that they wouldn't play it if Jedi are in it, just that they quite like it as it is. I'm sure you will find fellow gamers missing their Jedi just as much as you. You will also find that it has all been said and done before so you will have to deal with people that are tired of hearing it.

FuriousGreg said:

The designers specifically are doing the game in three books, Edge of the Empire (fringe gaming theme), Age of Rebellion (military/rebellion gaming theme), and Force & Destiny (big time heroics gaming). The three books follow the themes of the original trilogy. Once released there should be enough information to play in any era. That is their plan and barring any major deviations will be how it goes. There's no smoke, just some disgruntled people who want their Jedi now, not later. It's to be expected and I'm sure they knew some people would be upset. And yes many people like to play them, but not all of them need their Jedi now.

FuriousGreg said:

You do realize that Edge of the Empire is the first of three core rulebooks, dont you? You do realize that the third of those core rulebooks is going to be all about Jedi, right?

You do realize that half the point of that is so that the designers can make sure the game actually works before they add something as complex as Jedi to the system?

Lastly, you do realize that if too many people think the way you do, and end up not buying EotE, that there will be no Star Wars RPG at all, instead of just having to wait a couple years for Jedi?

>>>You do realize that half the point of that is so that the designers can make sure the game actually works before they add something as complex as Jedi to the system?<<<

It really, really isn't. The last time they tried this with the 40k RPGs they ended up with a system that didn't work very well at high level because the system wasn't designed or tested for characters outside the scope of the first game.

Given that they made a 40k RPG that didn't, when the time came, work for Space Marines, I think it is entirely possible for them to make a Star Wars game that won't, when the time comes, work for Jedi.

And you'd rather have that game right now.

ErikB…

+ 1

I not only agree with you, I also believe that Jedi were not introduced because of revenue. They know that Star Wars fans are going to buy EotE (aka firefly) regardless, and that they will make the most of their money when Jedi are introduced in 2015. They are expecting our blind loyalty for their coffers early on. If they gave the best stuff (Jedi) on the front end, they would not necessarily get the same sales if EotE was released last. Like I said, I hope there is enough sale hesitation regarding this product to expedite official Jedi.

Of my group, we have agreed that I am the only one who is going to buy the core book (mainly because I am the story teller). I am also not the only group I know who is planning on holding back on buying the game. I know a few groups that are saying no to EotE for the soul reason of FFG’s “no Jedi stance”.

This may seem like it is no big deal however, I am a game collector as I am sure many on here are as well. I have three full book cases filled with game books. When I don’t invest in a game, that means generally, my groups doesn’t either. This not only means that I will not buy hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in FFG Star Wars books, it also means the group wont either. That is a half dozen supplements that are not being purchased, multiplied by six people. Now add that up with the other story tellers I know who have the same set up. The group plays what the story teller is running.

To put it bluntly, I think the way they are doing this three core book set up is ridicules and I think it is absolutely exclusive rather than inclusive. They really aren’t going to get a lot of business from me which is really a shame for as much as I enjoy Star Wars.

I. J. Thompson said:

No, I would rather they make the game from the top down so that lightsaber fights are in stone and work flawlessly from day one rather than trying to fit it in to a cowboys in space game.