I feel compelled to state in FFG's defence that they were also not responsible for the aborted hack-job of a system used for the 40k RPGs.

Dark Heresy was first published and printed by Black Library, as were the first few supplements. The system is a port of the (in my opinion fairly abysmal) WHFRP II system by Green Ronin, which was in turn fairly close to the original WHFRP released by Games Workshop in the 1980's.

FFG has done what they can but the base system just isn't very good. I got the feeling, especially when playtesting Deathwatch, that they would like nothing better than to throw the system out and start again but licensing agreements mean this isn't practical. I would love to see them re-do the system in the same vein as WHFRP III or EotE but sadly I can't see this happening for a while.

Here is a little news on the force and edge of the empire for all you naysayers, whiners and children out there. Deal with and grow up.

Jegergryte said:

If this doesn't put the nail in the coffin for the idea that FFG will be releasing full-blown Jedi or Force-user material prior to 2015, I don't much of anything will.

At least with this preview, it clears up a couple things regarding the Sense power, namely that the Strength Upgarde does apply to both of the Ongoing Effects, and that the "read surface thoughts" only costs a single Force Point to activate.

It's a great article but does nothing for the "I want my Jedi now!!" crowd.

mouthymerc said:

It pretty much says "you want Jedi? Not happening in Edge of the Empire!"

Like i said, if that's not a clear sign to that crowd that FFG isn't going to pander to them at this point in time, I'm not sure what would be.

Yeah. Listening to the fen doesn't seem to be a priority for FFG.

Know Your Place gamers, and be grateful for what they feel you should consume!

Mother Knows Best after all.

I'm glad they're taking their time. Getting the mechanics right* for using the Force will be the trickiest thing they have to do. I don't have the Beta, but reading today's article I'm cautiously optimistic that they're moving in the right direction.

Here are some basic things, in no particular order, I've noticed about Force usage in the movies and TCW:

1. it's not "always on", unless you're Yoda or Palpatine
2. doing more than one thing at a time is tricky, as is using the Force and performing a mundane action, but it can be done
3. objects set in motion can be kept in motion without distracting from your other actions, assuming you have the skill
4. Force use isn't exhausted by an encounter, you can always tap it, assuming you have the clarity and/or will
5. dark siders can really get a boost when they're cornered like rats
6. combining force usage with combat, apart from sense-prediction and basic acrobatics, is really tough
7. blocking someone else's use of the Force against you is something even Masters struggle with
8. sometimes being severely tested unlocks insight or power…in game/narrative terms maybe being able to spend experience to increase a skill/talent

Except for the last (#8), from what I can see, these effects could be implemented by the mechanics as I (barely) understand them. I am hopeful…

---------------

* "right" being a subjective term, of course

Unfortunately this is probably the #1 reason I cannot get ANYONE I know to play this game except one friend I have that is a Star Wars geek. I can't seem to pay people to play. As soon as they hear 'no Jedi' that say they would rather play Firefly or something different then.

ErikB said:

Yeah, they're not listening to the MAJORITY of the fans on this site, that DON'T want full on Jedi in the game now.

Oh… wait.

Mother Majority knows best after all.

-WJL

Which actually begs another point: Can we PLEASE stop arguing that 'More' people have one opinion, and therefore that is right opinion?

AND arguing this absurd equivalency between:

• "More" people want X

And

• X is good

daddystabz said:

Well off your group goes to play Firefly (as if that has Jedi). Dont forget to check in every now and then. Take a peak over the fence at how we are going with our Edge of the Empire adventures. This vast outer rim galaxy with its infinite stories, opportunities, adventures and not a Jedi in sight.

I have to assume that the ones 'complaining' and arguments presented are just kids. If not then you certainly are behaving childish rather than providing constructive input. I read and it sounds and reads like a toddler tantrum. I even see my 18yo kids devolve into toddlers when they loose something beloved and the world is not right any more because there is no more Jersey Shore or favourite drink in the fridge. Such a "me" culture. Frustrates me when I see it creeping into this gaming industry. I play to get away from all of that.

If a game mechanic and system doesnt suit me, I move on. Provide some constructive rationale, usually tabled against the dice mechanic, general rules. Never really the flavour. That is what this Jedi absence is. Its the absence of a particular flavour.

You want a rule set that gives you Jedi and you can choose whatever epoch you want your group to play in?? Hmmm, let me think. Oh yea, something called Saga that fits that very desire. And hey, its been out for years and there are more splat books than there are hairs on my butt cheeks. You have it all.

Fantasy Flight have deliberatly set this book to a particular epoch. They have explained their rationale. It was constructive, engaging and made obvious sense. Now get on board and go for this ride or look elsewhere. Dont just ignore everything that the developers have said as if it just never existed and continue to beat your drums. Classic toddler tantrum syndrome. Rationale and logic will never work on toddlers, though I was hoping here I would be finiding reasonable and rational gents and ladies that can carry on a constructive conversation.

All I am hearing is "I WANT MY PACIFIER!!!"

DVeight said:

And now that you're done with that beligerant rant, you can go back and read the quoted text again and see how it clearly states that the poster WANTS to play, but it is the REST of his group who would rather play Firefly if there are no Jedi. Then you can explain to the rest of us exactly what your four paragraphs of ranting and whining were meant to accomplish besides wasting everyones time reading it.

I am also pissed because I cannot play an Ewok, and there is no announcement of when the Ewok book will be released. The problem is even worse because a colleague of mine wants to play an Ewok Jedi.

We are very much screwed.

On the serious side, as the subject of the thread reads, I am also disappointed because there is no Jedi. Still, I think me and my group can live for the moment with the Jedi Exile talent tree plus the few powers present in the core book, at least until the Jedi book (and the Ewok sourcebook) is released.

Nyarlathotep5150 said:

The Core Rulebook does have Force Powers, I am assuming that should be enough to feel partly like a Jedi.

I keep seeing people post that those of us that are disappointed that the choice to wait on fleshed out Jedi/Sith rules are just a vocal minority. Well, it seems that this topic is somewhat popular, getting close to 500 views in just a few days. I also note that a couple of other "Jedi" related topics have been pretty popular as well, "Ways of the Force" has 1200+ people at least mildly interested in alternatives to the current rules (I'd be interested in how many people have downloaded this pretty decent house rule set), and the topic "Can you play a Jedi" had 2800+ (the current leader in this forum by around 700 views).
Even if only a few people actually post in these topics it's pretty obviously one quite a few people are interested in at least enough to look at, so without more solid stats I think it's a bit presumptuous to say this opinion is only a few people whining. Besides being unverifiable without some kind of polling its a classic logical fallacy argument (Argument from popularity http://thoushallthink.blogspot.ca/2008/02/how-not-to-argue-argument-from.html ), actually it's only potentally an argument ad populum because we really don't know how may people feel what.

I also keep seeing people saying that this is somehow a black and white issue, that you either love the lame as it is, or you're a whiner so STFU and get over it. Again, are people so shallow that they cannot see that being disappointed in something and voicing their opinion in hopes that it might bring upon change in a Forum created precisely for fostering discussion, isn't whining? I could easily turn it around and say that people who keep saying their tired of hearing people discussing this topic are whining about other people talking.

So how about we skip these lines of conversation, it's really no better than trolling, if it's actually different at all.

FuriousGreg said:

that's not really valid though, as many of those views/replies are coming from people who are just as happy to wait for Jedi to be integrated later on. Plus there are arguments happening, and any thread where people argue is bound to stay at the top, as everyone tries to get the last word in.

Very true though that this thread is pretty pointless now. FFG knows that there are people who want Jedi, and they plan to give them Jedi… in time. In fact, the fellow above who spoke about wanting Ewoks was joking (I think), but he hit the nail right on the head:

Hold tight, go outside and play. You'll get your thing eventually.

I don't think anyone has seen the issue as black and white, except maybe those that want Jedi. With comments like "It isn't Star Wars without Jedi!" it seems so. Star Wars without the Force may not be Star Wars (although some of the current military fiction may tell otherwise), but not the lack of Jedi. Most people here are looking forward to having Jedi, many having even played Jedi as their favorite. What the don't do is come in acting like FFG has made some huge mistake not doing Jedi right off. Which many of the proponents demanding Jedi do. The only thing that is going to show FFG that their plan for their three core books isn't working is the sales. If sales meet their expectations then there's no reason to change their schedule.

FuriousGreg said:

+1, I completely agree with this.

I would also add Ad Hominem to the list. Calling people that disagree with you “whiners” and any other childish name you can think of is 1^st grade politics at its finest. I don’t really care if people are tired of hearing it. Wait until the book is released and people who don’t hang out at this board all day get involved. There is going to be massive numbers of players and Star Wars fans up in arms about no Jedi…But then they will all be whiners too I guess.

There have been a fair number of people on this board who have shown interest in Jedi being released before 2015 and have expressed their frustration on the topic only to be attacked and pushed away by the rather small group of people who get abrasive and upset at FFG dissention.

I have played cowboys in space games. I have also story told such games and I find them rather boring. This notion that we somehow need to “try them” is presumptuous and asinine. Frankly, in my opinion, all EotE is doing is making an update Serenity RPG. I actually do believe that Jedi are a panicle cornerstone to the Star Wars narrative. Luke, obi wan, Darth Vader are all Jedi and Sith. I think they are important characters. It would not be the original trilogy without them. That is only if you are playing in a very small (20 year window) of star wars. In short, I think Jedi need to be released WAY before 2015.

I do hope FFG takes a ding from their sales because this idea that that “daddy knows best” regarding iconic archetypes of star wars and timeline is very unflattering to their company. It has kind of turned me off to their other products as well. I own most of them, but future products now seem like they are tainted by arrogance or a faux omniscient. I know that at GenCon, I plan on (politely) letting them know I will not be supporting their line beyond Edge of the Empire because of their anti-Jedi stance. I know a few other people who plan on doing the same thing.

Their game is not inclusive at all. In my opinion, it is very exclusive and that is the worse way they could have started their line off. Heck, there are going to be a huge number of people who get duped into buying the product because they know it is the new star wars rpg but do not know that it is a very limited and marginalizing product of the Star Wars universe. I simply have no respect for their decision on this product.

When you act like FFG is doing this to snub Jedi fans your argument takes on juvenile, self-entitlement tones. They chose to do this for many and varied reasons and I am also sure they did some research into it before hand. Please stop acting like they are trying to do it for money (which they are, for shame) or to trick people or other such nonsense. And you wonder why we think you sound whiny? And the hubris to think that you know best after calling them on it. The true telling of whether or not the game does well as they have designed will he in the play and the sales. We know some people want their beloved Jedi now, unfortunately you will have to wait a little longer. Or go back to Saga or OCR/RCR.

Protege said:

Unreal. I've seen some really ignorant comments in this thread, but…jeebus…!

Dumb #1: A ding to their sales? All that will mean is less chance of getting any Jedi at all! Do you have any idea how this business works? You're only as good as your latest effort.

Dumb #2: Daddy knows best? They aren't withholding it to annoy their customers, how stupid would that be? I think some people have no idea how much work in design and playtesting goes into getting the mechanics right. If they published what they had now, all you whiners would be whining about how imbalanced it was or how it sucked in some way or other. Every Force implementation I've ever worked with, from WEG to D20 to Saga to various World of Darkness-based spinoffs, has suffered in some way. Combat mechanics are relatively easy. Putting a structure on the Force is hard.

Believe me, I *want* to play Jedi, and run a Jedi campaign. The Jedi are central to my concept of and interest in Star Wars. I want it far more than smugglers and scoundrels and the next military-based rule book. But unlike some, I can see past my desires of the moment, and have some respect for what the authors are trying to achieve. I want them to get it right.

Patience, Padawan, or you'll be sent to the Agricultural Corps!

I don't know where this idea of FFG having an "anti-Jedi" stance comes from.

If you honestly think this is a thing, you need to reacquiant yourself with the Rules inclusion of Force Sensitives, and all the effort and feedback that went into designing that during the Beta, as well as the fact that they have stated they are committed to publishing a Force-focused book. Sure you can't be Obi-wan or Darth Vader in Eote, but let me quote something from one of FFG's more recent news posts, something that most people are forgetting.

" The Star Wars Edge of the Empire Roleplaying Game is set after the events of A New Hope. The Revel Alliance has destroyed the evil Galactiv Empire's powerful Death Star. Now, Imperial forces strike back, throwing the galaxy into war.

Meanwhile, throughout the galaxy, belief in the Force has become nearly extinct. The Jedi are gone, the vast majority hunted down and destroyed by the Emperor and his minions. If any survive, they do so in hiding at the farthest edges of the galaxy. The Galactic Empire regards the ability to use the force as a crime punishable by the harshest measures. In a few short decades, the Galactic Empire has managed to destroy nearly all evidence of the Jedi, and most of the galaxy has since forgotten the order and dismissed the Force as an ancient religion."

It's simply not thematic for what they're releasing with Edge of the Empire for them to include in-depth rules regarding Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. It's as simple as that. They've said they will be releasing a Force-focused book, and yes it would be nice to see it sooner, but there's only so much they can do at a time. Contrary to popular belief, FFG is still comprised, to the best of my knowledge, of mostly humans. They chose to release this focus first, and fully-fledged Jedi don't have a place in it. If you don't want to buy it, or play it, then don't.

But coming here and complaining that they should be including Jedi in this release is like going to a Chinese restaurant and complaining that they don't serve Lasagne, it's not going to achieve anything.

Leechman said:

It comes from Protege, who keeps repeating it, hoping it'll gain traction, I think.

The thing that Protege sadly doesn't seem to understand is that FFG wants to make him a great Jedi book, it's just that they want to take the time to get it right.

As Master Yoda said

"Adventure, excitement, everything all at once, a Jedi craves not these things."

I. J. Thompson said:

Which he's then gone on to say that he's not going to buy, so…