I have a simple but great solution for this agenda since it seems that it has no real drawback and that aggro decks (mainly stark, GJ and Targ) are getting too easy draw thus overpowering the meta. Rather than restrict it or ban it or make it unplayable, let's make it Baratheon house only.

It could see use in some lord rush or asshai decks and have a real drawback in the form of reducing chances of finding that Stannis or Melisandre that you need badly.

Problem solved. What do you think FFG ?

msommi said:

He's an agent paid by the usurper! Get him!

Its not a bad solution and one i have not thought about before. Some possible solutions i have thought of personally are:

1) restriction + 100 card deck

2) restriction + reduce your draw cap by 1

3) 100 card deck + reduce your draw cap by 1

I think house baratheon only is a solid choice for a solution to that agena, but i think it still may be too strong and may need 1 more nerf to balance it.

if they were going to errata it id like to see something a little softer, like 'draw 1 extra if you have 7 or fewer cards in your hand' etc…

dcdennis said:

TLV hasn't seen play in a major North American tournament yet. I have said it before and ill say it again and again, wait till after we see what the top 16 looks like at gencon before we make any hasty errata or restrictions. This obviously won't happen as there has been much whining already.

Actually I don't think the comments about TLV have been all that whiny. People are talking about it a lot, but for the most part the discussion lacks the negative tone that accompanied things like GG or TMP (both of which probably deserved the whine).

If the complaints about TLV are a bit whiny, who cares? They're valid. TLV has been placing extremely well at Regionals for 2 1/2 months now.

A solution I saw elsewhere was that the "3 cards of the same title" rule could be dropped to 2 cards (for TLV only) to increase the deck's variance. So you can only run 2x Seas, 2x Iron Mines, 2x Asha, etc.

Or they could just stop releasing cards with massive power levels so that drawing 1 additional card isn't such a huge advantage. I guess that boat has sailed, though.

scantrell24 said:

TLV should be banned because it is pretty much the worst designed card in the history of all card games. It's power level is suspect though--I would wager 100 dollars that it doesn't win the DC regional in 2 weeks. If anyone wants to take that bet--PM me and we can talk.

House Baratheon Only???

Bara TLV wins in 2/3 plots!!!

~House Stark only since it apparently isnt so broken out of Stark?

How about we give it the same restrictions that Bear Island has? you can only play cards that have your houses affiliation (well and any events naturally).
This would do several things for TLV builds:
1) less optimization from cheap neutral characters.
2) harder resource curve since you are unable to use neutral 0 cost things to balance the build.
3) stop season splashing in some houses. Now GJ cannot get to use Wintertime Marauders or the choke element from white raven.
4) make seasons a vulnerability for TLV. No carrion bird, no raves… clear weakness that can be used to meta against it.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the card. I think it's doing well because there are a lot of people playing it and it's new. So people's strategies aren't optimized for the variable.

But if there was to be a rule change/errata change…

To keep in the "spirit" of the card, I think the card is missing something along the lines of: Give an opponent 1 Gold. Then Player may draw one additional card. Limited Response or action may be done only once per phase.

They just need to watch out that 90% of the field will not be playing it, as this will transform the game to a 85+-deck req. game. In that case they need to ban or nerf the card. In theory, it doesn't seem thàt broken to me. There's enough decent alternatives as far as agenda's are concerned. This one just has the broadest use.

Restricting it to a single house seems like a bad move, as it might result in that house becoming OP. Thàt could become a problem for the game. Now it's still fine the way it is imo, and I base that on recent tournament results.

Are we there yet (In light of the latest Regionals)? Is TLV dominating the meta such that 85 card decks are now the norm?

Yes, it is. In the OCTGN tournament, 41 of the 81 players are using it. So, it is more normal to have a 85 card deck than a 60 card deck.

Yes, it is. In the OCTGN tournament, 41 of the 81 players are using it. So, it is more normal to have a 85 card deck than a 60 card deck.

That said, half of them lost their first round, so they aren't (yet) performing better than 60 card decks in this particular tournament.

Yes, it is. In the OCTGN tournament, 41 of the 81 players are using it. So, it is more normal to have a 85 card deck than a 60 card deck.

That said, half of them lost their first round, so they aren't (yet) performing better than 60 card decks in this particular tournament.

Yes, it is. In the OCTGN tournament, 41 of the 81 players are using it. So, it is more normal to have a 85 card deck than a 60 card deck.

That said, half of them lost their first round, so they aren't (yet) performing better than 60 card decks in this particular tournament.

Any idea how many of them faced each other? That would inevitably generate an automatic loss with the agenda.

Not a clue. It's a reasonable assumption that they were seeded according to something bearing no relation to agenda choice, so that there should be no significant bias towards having had a mirror match.

More likely would be the player skill; if weaker players are picking the agenda they think is the best (TLV), they would bring those stats down. We'd wind up with two peaks, the "poor performing TLV" and the "good performing TLV". There's no reason (yet) to assume that, we'll see how it shakes out.

Best solution; Ban TLV and restrice NatGS meta is now in the best place its ever been.

Banning TLV and restricting NatGS is far from the best solution. It might be the simplest, but it's far from the best.

sorry mdc273 your wrong...whats better then that?

NatGS definitely belongs on the restricted list, it will still almost certainly see play. TLV will in all likelihood be restricted, but I would rather see either an outright ban or a very strong errata.

I wish NatGS and TLV were printed in different cycles. Because the noise around TLV has had a negative effect, overall, on NatGS

So many TLV decks won regionals without NatGS in it btw if you didn't notice--so I don't know how NatGS is getting complained about so much, other than a few champions of the community think they are expert playtesters outside of the tourney scene. NatGS wasn't necessary at all to win a regional for most TLV decks, I don't see why it should be restricted. But don't take my word for it, because I am just some dude with little thrones experience, and definitely not a world champion--take the words of the 2C1C guys, they perfectly described and agreed that NatGS (and I forget which episode this is in sorry) is fine and fairly balanced--plus I personally think it gives an added dimension to managing your hand size on the whole.

NatGS doesn't belong on the restricted list in the same way that valar doesn't belong on the restricted list. They are resets, in a way, that make the game interesting and deck building more complex and fun.

TLV belongs on the banned list because it makes deck designing bland and helps bad players get an extra card every. single. turn. You should have to earn your card advantage by doing something in game at the very least, like all the other agenda's make you do (for the most part).

edit - grammar

summer vs tlv...summer does not kick in till turn 3 for card advantage...turn 1 get raven, turn 2 replace the raven you used ..turn 3 begin to profit from summer draw...tlv profite...+2 for tlv..

TLV needs a wording change. A restriction would not be enough..