Space Marines are a rapid strike force and not the official military arm of an enormous (and hugely wealthy) organization.

You're still forgetting the Frateris Militia and the Clergy itself. The Sisters of Battle are a symbol and the core of the Church's military might, but they are not the Ecclesiarchy's "rank and file foot soldiers", as you make it sound. Those would be the faithful. All of them.

There are quite a lot of major Ecclesiarchy facilities lacking any sort of SoB protection, such as the Subsector Cathedral on Bladen, which was said in Codex Cityfight to be defended solely by its attending priests and a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops.

"Imperial Shrines form the main defence points against an alien invasion. If a Chaos, Ork, or Eldar army descends upon a planet, the citizens would usually rally around the Frateris Clergy and defend their shrines and temples from the alien invaders."

- WD #212

"Preachers are sometimes known as Defenders of the Faith as they and their Militia often form the first line of defence against insidious Chaos and Genestealer cults or other heretical sects. When a planet is subjected to an alien invasion, it is the Preachers who mobilise the population into defending their homes from the godless heathens who attack them."

- 2E C:SoB

I'm sorry for having dragged the thread off-topic a bit, but I can't just leave some of those posts uncommented, lest I would allow GW's original fluff to be muddled further by lack of public awareness. As you may have guessed, this is a subject I feel somewhat strongly about, and whilst I have no problem with people intentionally dismissing GW's own fluff in favour of something else, I won't stand idly by when it is communicated in a manner I perceive as flawed and thus misleading for others who might prefer the original background.

Feel free to use Codex fluff to back up your statements, however, like I did. Not just personal preferences/opinion.

I am not relying on Codex fluff, but on the fact that it appears ridiculous and therefore breaks my suspension of disbelief and ability to take the setting seriously. YMMV.

I don't see why, given the above explanations, you think this is any worse than the Space Marines... or difficult to accept in general. There are a lot of factors (political, economical, traditions, recruitment requirements, combat casualties) which all affect the subject matter.

But thanks for clearing this up; I suppose in that case we can only agree to disagree. Let me bury my power axe again.

Uh, didn't the Decree Passive prevent any "Men at Arms" serving the Ecclesiarch, hence the continued existence of the Sororitas themselves?

The Frateris Militia are basically gun-tooting religious fanatics who gather around figures of the Church and aren't directly commanded by them in order to prevent violating the Decree...

...And how often does this 500 Sororita Vow Ceremony take place on Holy Terra?

I mean, the Emperor EATS 1000 psykers a DAY, so how hard is it to gather half that in Pious Space Catholic Schoolgirls every couple of weeks?

Plus Space Marines need, what, 6 years of Augmentation and are suppose to last Hundreds at the very least?

I doubt their numbers are comparable...

I mean you have to remember that Hard Science Fiction writers often muck up the numbers on this scale, let alone Science FANTASY ones...

The Decree Passive did indeed ban "Men at Arms" serving the Ecclesiarch however it s intention was to ban the Ministorum from having any standing armies (since the Adeptus Sororitas were a strong force during the Reign of Blood) . However the Church was able to exploit the wording of the Decree Passive to continue to command Sororitas armies by following the letter of the Decree but most definitely not the spirit.

This is why the Church has to be careful about it's military capacity and how the public might view it considering they did the shifty to have any standing military force at all.

Of course this wasn't the original question, the original was would it be okay to play a corrupted Adeptas Sororitas and I believe the overwhelming answer was "HELL YEAH!"

Plus Space Marines need, what, 6 years of Augmentation and are suppose to last Hundreds at the very least?

And Sisters need 14 years of Schola Progenium upbringing and another 3+ as novices, which is more than double that time.

Under ideal conditions, meaning no death in combat, they could probably live just as long as a Space Marine thanks to the available rejuvenation techniques (an example being Canoness Carmina from the White Dwarf Armageddon campaign articles), but since they are somewhat less durable due to missing the genetical enhancements of the Astartes, a higher casualty rate could also be a factor as to why there's not so many of them, as I theorised earlier. When you have higher losses, you need more recruits to replace rather than add to your numbers.

I mean you have to remember that Hard Science Fiction writers often muck up the numbers on this scale, let alone Science FANTASY ones...

Oh, yes - especially in 40k. That being said, in this case I don't see why the numbers shouldn't add up. It's not like with the Space Marines who show up in the fluff all the time and everywhere (although I feel this is somewhat offset by the chronological distance between individual events), or the 10.000 men of the Storm Trooper regiment. The Battle Sisters are mentioned very, very, very rarely in the fluff of various battles/events - and although this is probably an unintentional connection, their numbers as suggested by GW perfectly reflect this limitation.

And then we have the Force Disposition Charts for Armageddon and Cadia , which further strengthen this impression. Look at those numbers and compare them to the Astartes. What ratio do you see?

So I just don't see where exactly this perceived need for a higher headcount stems from.

I'll let the topic rest for now, unless someone has any questions regarding my posts or would like to see sources for some of my claims. I'd recommend this being moved to PM (or possibly a new thread), though, even if the original topic seems to be "finished" already.

And Sisters need 14 years of Schola Progenium upbringing and another 3+ as novices, which is more than double that time.

And at what age do Space Marines recuit at?

Because 11 sounds about right...

So I just don't see where exactly this perceived need for a higher headcount stems from.

PSSSH~ It's so we have a better excuse for more Sisters on the Tabletop!

And at what age do Space Marines recuit at?

Because 11 sounds about right...

About, yeah - if you really want to add a recruit's childhood before they begin training, then Marines and Sisters enter active battlefield service at roughly the same age.

That being said, I could argue it's debatable as to whether this is a valid assessment. The various kids just "don't exist" for the Astartes prior to recruitment. They do not spend resources and manpower on their training, they do not provide limited education slots for them, they don't even keep track of their lives. They just venture out some day, gather a bunch of locals and run them through a couple tests to check who might be suitable.

Granted, one could say the Sisterhood does the same, as (at least as per GW fluff; I know a certain Black Library novel that depicts it differently) a Schola student is not recruited into the Sisterhood right away, but rather recommended by their Arch Drill-Abbot upon reaching early adolescence. If the application sounds promising, a Superior of the Orders Famulous visits the facility to inspect the teen, and if the Sororitas is satisfied, the girl will join a convent to begin her novitiate.

Then again, even though the Sororitas do not get involved with a future member's training until her teenage years, that individual still takes up a spot in the Ecclesiarchy-run Schola Progenium, whose majority of pupils (who must be orphans of Imperial officers, not just anyone ) end up as civilian clerks within the vast halls of the Adeptus Administratum. Those who are more martially minded are instead sent to the Adeptus Arbites, or become NCOs in the Imperial Guard's Segmentum Command or on a Navy warship. Then come the Commissars. Only the best of the best are even considered for membership in the Adepta Sororitas, the Storm Trooper regiment, or one of the Assassin Temples. Very rarely, you also have someone being recruited directly into the retinue of an Inquisitor, to someday become Inquisitor him- or herself.

And to further complicate manners, the Sisterhood accepts only those girls who have been raised in the Schola from infancy. You were orphaned at age 8? Too bad, no membership for you.

... bah, now I'm rambling again . I'm sorry, this is one of those topics I could babble on about all day long.

Then again, even though the Sororitas do not get involved with a future member's training until her teenage years, that individual still takes up a spot in the Ecclesiarchy-run Schola Progenium, whose majority of pupils (who must be orphans of Imperial officers, not just anyone ) end up as civilian clerks within the vast halls of the Adeptus Administratum. Those who are more martially minded are instead sent to the Adeptus Arbites, or become NCOs in the Imperial Guard's Segmentum Command or on a Navy warship. Then come the Commissars. Only the best of the best are even considered for membership in the Adepta Sororitas, the Storm Trooper regiment, or one of the Assassin Temples.

Still a larger recruiting pool then one or two feral worlds, and still better chances than a procedure where you only have slightly positive odds of survival...

And to further complicate manners, the Sisterhood accepts only those girls who have been raised in the Schola from infancy. You were orphaned at age 8? Too bad, no membership for you.

...Where did you find that tidbit of information?

I'm only using the Lexicanum here, but apparently the 195th page of the Sixth Edition Rule Book has each Major Order numbering in the Tens of Thousands, and each MINOR Order numbering in the Thousands...

Still a larger recruiting pool then one or two feral worlds, and still better chances than a procedure where you only have slightly positive odds of survival...

If you count only one or two Space Marine Chapters rather than the full thousand, sure. And as long as you don't count a fleet-based Chapter like the Black Templars, who have been granted permission to recruit from several worlds, or a Chapter like the Ultras who control seven inhabited planets in their mini-empire.

As for the Marine creation - the odds shouldn't be that low, unless a Chapter has really messed up with its requirements and testing of applicants. Else the Blood Angels would be in real trouble, what with them supposedly only taking 50 recruits once every generation.

...Where did you find that tidbit of information?

I'm only using the Lexicanum here, but apparently the 195th page of the Sixth Edition Rule Book has each Major Order numbering in the Tens of Thousands, and each MINOR Order numbering in the Thousands...

... and that's why I recommend studying the sources directly and treating those wikis as an index at best, rather than trusting other fans with their editing - especially since Lexicanum insists on the illusion of a uniform and consistent "canon", resulting in much interpretation as the individual editors attempt to reconcile sources that were never meant to be compatible. Not to mention cases where supposedly sourced statements simply do not appear where the wiki claimed ... or quite simply say something different ->

"The Adepta Sororitas are divided into several major Orders Militant, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors. There are also many lesser Sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred Battle Sisters."

- 6E Rulebook p.195

The older Codex has somewhat more detailed numbers on the six Major Orders:

"In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3.000 and 4.000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-700 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars, but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

- 2E C:SoB p.35

Note that it is entirely possible that some non-studio source has published a novel or some other book that conflicts with the information quoted above. As I mentioned earlier, FFG itself seems to have inflated their numbers considerably with Blood of Martyrs. I'm just here to pass on how GW's core studio team tells it; anyone is of course quite at liberty to simply dismiss the Codex fluff and adhere to some outsourced book, or even come up with their own idea. "40k is what we make of it."

I'm just here to pass on how GW's core studio team tells it; anyone is of course quite at liberty to simply dismiss the Codex fluff and adhere to some outsourced book, or even come up with their own idea. "40k is what we make of it."

Normally I'm a sucker for keeping this to the canon but in this regard I will probably run with my own view of the numbers of the Adepta Sororitas.

In fairness, your way probably fits better to FFG's RPGs, too - that is, if you're going by Blood of Martyrs.

If your players are more familiar with the Calixis sector etc rather than the (sometimes rather hard to find and certainly not well known) GW sources, it could even be confusing to confront them with the latter! With a new group, I'd always recommend to guess or directly inquire what interpretation of the 41st millennium the players gravitate to, just to find the middle ground and (hopefully) cater to it.

and in Cain's Last Stand, where an entire Mission was converted.

I don't think the above case would count anyway. Since the big bad in that novel had super mind-control magic on his side. Possibly absolving them of the sin of treason, but not any of the other ones that accompanied it.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't count those Sororitas that went on to technically leave the order. Like by becoming an Inquisitor, or more rarely a Rogue Trader.

Another possibility would be those who weren't full sisters when they fell.

Technicalities all, of course.

Wouldn't take too much stock of science fiction numbers, typically a lot of writers seem to have an extraordinarily difficult time getting their heads around scale once they get over a couple of thousand and then something cuts out, the ork-brain kicks in and it becomes 'uh, zoggin lots n lots!'

I mean, even if the Imperium was only 10,000 earth sized planets with earth-sized populations across a galaxy, you're still looking at a citizenry of about 6.5x10−13 or something... given the fickle nature of warp based travel, a very large percentage of that population are not exactly highly mobile either.

Maybe a sector with say 90 habitable planets has possibly 18,000 Sisters out of a population of around 5.85x10-9 and even then they'd be a spectacularly rare occurrence! Not quite winning lottery small, but also not really able to project much in the way of armed force either. (But military research isn't always a highly scrutinised area either!)

Back when I was growing up in the cold war era, somewhere like the highly militarised area of Soviet Russia in the late 80's that I would compare to the average Imperial planet for a number of socio-political and military reasons. They operationally had around 55,000 tanks ranging from T-64s to T80's... 33,000 towed artillery pieces... 8000 rocket artillery pieces... 70,000 APC's... 24,000 IFV's and if pressed, they could mobilise millions relatively decently equipped infantry.

So yeah, take it with a pinch of salt if you're looking at actually realistic numbers.

(Cheers for the background links too Lyn)

I still don't see this supposed problem with scale, though. GW has been very consistent about this - their occurences in the fluff perfectly match the small scale of their organisation!

The numbers only start to become suspicious if, for some reason, you assume that they need to have a presence on every single world, as your statement with the 90 planets implies. However, in doing so, you are supplanting your own preferences over what the background says, basically forcing a contradiction where none existed before. That's like saying there should be at least 100 million Space Marines because their current numbers aren't enough, but for some reason nobody seems to have a problem with the amount of Astartes?

As I said, anyone is free to up any of those numbers as they see fit - certainly, lots of novel authors are making use of such liberties, as does FFG's own team of writers. But I think that it would be both untrue and unfair to say that GW's own material is flawed or unrealistic (at least in this case). Divergent preferences do not necessarily mean either side is "wrong".

Oh, I have the same "numerical problems" with Marines, don't you worry

It's not so much the implication that yeah, you don't need them on every world, but more the actual "impact" on anything regarding a military activity is at best, a small, force multiplier like a special forces like SAS guys blowing up Scuds or Seal's shooting Osama.

If you need them to be a small, interesting special forces group to make them appealing from a story telling perspective or even a larger, galaxy spanning fighting force for the same reasons they both have their place. Heck at the end of the day when I run/play something, it's not games workshops, its mine and yours to do what we need to.

It is at this point I shall hide in the bunker before they send in lawyers & deathstrike missiles

Back on topic-

Currently I have one of my characters called 'Polemic' who is a fallen sister that I made up as something of a reaction to rubbish-fluff writing and awful tropes.

Basically, in the process of dealing with a certain daemonic incusion she found all her sisters where murdered by Grey Knights and worn as bloody facepaint, she quit because none of these activities is proscribed in the Dept Munitorium OH&S manual for murdering and using your allies bodily fluids as facepoint or anything else. Even in conditions deemed extremely dire by the Inquisition. Also at this point, the difference between the bad guys and the other bad guys became increasingly blurry to the point none of it made sense from an employment perspective.

So working for one, or the other, its all the same apparently, except that in the 'Welcome to Chaos' primer to new starters, its completely fine to murder the odd fellow employee if it means a deadline gets completed, getting in touch with 'the management' or even as an incentive by shooting 1 in 10, so the remaining 9 get stuff done quicker.

In later reflection this was probably a better career move because at least on the other side she hasn't ever had rely on some dopey but apparently super-competent bloke turning up to always save her at the last minute in some touching, but functionally retarded and mysogynistic douchebag final scenes. So far she has also not at any point ended up ever being tied to railroad tracks or been rendered completely helpless in some state of partial or complete undress at any stage of her adventures... and also recieves equal influence in story lines.

This is mostly because she has a big gun that fires explosive bullets, a huge power hammer and wears hulking big arse power armour, when it becomes past a joke or inappropriate touching in the work place is involved, it can and does end extreamly badly for the other people concerned, re: Section 1A: Murdering your fellow employees for fun & profit

Although anyone dumb enough to try and feel up a Battle Sister without consent probably deserves what's coming to them.

Depressingly that nearly happened in a Dark Heresy game I was GM-ing. The rest of the acolytes were in a cell interrogating a heretic whilst the scummer was outside with the militant orders guard.

The conversation with the player went as follows:

"So...can I try hitting on her?"

"Seriously?"

"Yeah."

"Make a charm test."

[Dice roll]

"Make a toughness test."

The players emerged from the cell to find the sister militant stood exactly where she had been but the scummer curled up on the floor in a foetal position and whimpering in an extremely high-pitched voice.

So the Grey Knights blood insignia wasn't fine by her job description... But it IS fine to silence entire regiments of Imperial Guardsmen based on the suspicion that they'd "seen too much" or start witch-hunting pogroms in hive cities that end with many innocent lives being lost? Not to mention I think there was a short story where the Ecclesiarchy blesses bolter shells by spilling innocent blood over them.

I'd be more curious about how someone would actually manage to find out what happened there, or how this would end up only affecting a single person...?

I know a lot of people dislike the Bloodtide fluff - I guess I'm one of the few who just don't see the problem. "Fighting fire with fire: Inquisition does bad stuff for the greater good. More at eleven."

I think there may have been a more, hmm, elegant way to arrange for a fall. Yet again I find myself referring to Miriael Sabathiel - one of the very, very few ways I could imagine something like this to happen. Daemonic Possession of a dead or semi-dead body, potentially involving the merge of a Warp spirit with the body's memories and bits of personality to create a new amoral hybrid persona, might be another (assuming that this isn't what happened to Miriael during her captivity at the hands of the EC).

None of which happen to the Battle Sisters, so you are deliberately applying sexist tropes to them where they do not in the source material.

Not in GW's source material, fortunately. Makes you wish all the outsourced products would treat them in a similar fashion...

"Make a charm test."

[Dice roll]

"Make a toughness test."

Don't over-analyse it too much.

My quest for new character ideas took me to a lot of dark places:

Basically, think of it as a typically Australian mental twitch-reflex to reading a tonne of really bad new codex fluff, 40k novels so awful it made me die a little inside and artwork that is probably best described as massacre porn. What I do there is basically exaggerate and then piss-take to the point of comedy as a response.

So somewhere between the time the Blood Angels started bro-fisting the Necrons and pictures of mostly naked girls with 2-h chainswords being thrashed across a battlefield by a nun in armour with a horsewhip... my mind hit a critical mass of "What the **** am I looking at?", melted down and couldnt take any of it seriously, ever again. For the love of god/budda/emperor, don't take me seriously either

If all you need to be uncorruptible is lots of faith, half the Ecclesiarchy ahould be uncorruptible, as well as a good % of the civilian population.

There is actually no good reason for Sisters to be uncorruptible. Grey Knights you can justify with genetic engineering and hypnotechniques and warded whatevers -- but sisters don't have that and so it makes no sense.

"Lots of faith" isn't enough - extreme amounts of blind faith and conviction, the sort of mindset you can generally only engender in a closed and isolated environment where members of a religious group support and control each other under a strict set of rules and regulations, as well as avoiding the temptations that come with "normal life" and contact with the outside world, where a mind may be exposed and opened to "impure" ideas.

"Half the Ecclesiarchy" doesn't live in isolated convents dominated by a penitent regime embracing the concepts of humility and altruism, and neither does "a good percentage of the civilian population", so their minds are more open and liberal (or shall we say: concerned with matters of everyday life), and thus also more prone to corruption. Obviously, that doesn't mean that there cannot individuals within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy or the general populace who may be called incorruptible as well - it is merely not common enough to be any sort of rule, and depends heavily on the individual's chosen lifestyle and local culture.

"Corruption" is exploitation of questions and aspirations. If neither are present, then there is nothing where corruption can reliably take root. You can regard it as a struggle between two forms of pressure (doubt versus conviction) fighting for control over the soul, and the Sisters simply live in a very strict and intimate environment where the latter is supported more than the former.

If that still doesn't make sense to you, then I suppose that's that.

I'm pretty sure significant members of the Ecclesiarchy do live in issolated monastaries embracing the concepts of humility and altruism.

Wait -- ALTRUISM? That is the polar opposite of Sisters. I'll accept "selflessness", as it "we selflessly but very nonaltrusstically burned the population of the planet."

Anyway, making Sisters incorruptible basically makes them nonhuman. Which is why it is lame.

It is also completely opposed to the Pop Middle Ages in Space Theology of 40K. The whole point of Pop Middle Ages in Space Theology is that everyone is corruptible. Otherwise you would not need Space Jesus.

Just to flesh out that last bit here. The 40K "ethos" is based on the Dark Ages, or more accurately the Dark Ages as it is imagined in British pop culture (which is why standard British Protestant anti-Catholic tropes show up in it all the time -- this would be a very different universe if it had been invented by Spaniards. Anyway, I digress.).

The Emperor is Space Jesus. Chaos is Space Satan. The Imperial Creed is Space Catholicism. Space Satan is always trying to tempt the Space Catholics away from Space Jesus with his honeyed words, saying that if they turn their backs on Space Jesus and sell him their warp essence er immortal soul, he will give them worldly power. Space Catholics are weak, and hence they need faith in Space Jesus and the Space Saints to protect them. But even the slightest misstep or doubt can give Space Satan an opening.

Saying a Space Catholic is incorruptible = saying he or she has no free will = saying he or she is not human.

It's a sin actually in the historical quasi-source material..Pride. Thinking you are incorruptible is itself a sin that gives Space Satan an opening. For can you not use my dark ways if your soul is pure? C'mon, just try it.