I just want to expose my thoughts on one important question about the LCG format and the way taken by FFG to put it into use, as well as I would like to read the opinion of all of you.

For many players, including me, the format just seemed awesome (probabbly a bit fast realeasing the expansions? but this is quite relative)… until we realize that you have a "trap" to catch more money: the core sets.

Do not be ingenous, FFG knows that you really want to have 3 copies of each card, just look at the expansions. The Netrunner expansions have even 3 copies of each identity card, when you are just going to use 1 even playing 2 friends with the same set!

I am a (in principle happy) owner of 2 Netrunner core sets + all the released expansions (I even have the first big expansion pre-purchased in Amazon right now), and LotR LCG catched my attention quite much since some time. The more I read about the game, the more I want it, but I just stop and say NO. I already paid for being newbie to the FFG LCGs and I do not want to pay that again. I am no way going to buy just one core set and have 1/3 of a set, and I am no way to buy more than one core set just because a company sells them in that greedy way to be able to get more money selling a "closed set" when it is really 1/3 of a proper set compared to all the other sets released after. I am not even happy with my 2 Netrunner coresets right now after so much time… and I am not going to pay the amounts required for the cards that I want to have 3 times by ebay or similar.

Just a bad noob move at start from FFG? I do not think so. If it was that, they would just had released a complementary card set to fix it. Have you heard about that? Have you found it in Amazon? No? Me neither.

But, on the other hand… I REALLY want this other game also, and the quality of the games and materials from many FFG is really amazing, a real good work. A solution? It does not exist for me, but exist for FFG. FFG can think of how many players are doing the same as me, potential players because we already preriodically buy expansion for other games, but we already pass throgh the pain of having to buy 2-3 core sets to be able to have a proper set and we do not want to pay the hazing again .

And please, do not tell me one core set is enough. Why do you buy an expansion and find the same amount of all the copies? Was it just a matter of doing the core set cheaper for the casual players? No, because as I said, I do not see any "complementary set" to buy in any of the FFG games. The "complete starter set" costs 3x30-40$/€. Too much for just that…

So, are they going to do the same with all the new LCG games in the future? And more important, are you really going to buy them if they continue with that phylosophy? Because they decide what to do depending of what they think the people are going to buy or not. So I just want you to give your opinion. Please ask for a change in the core set formats and/or add complementary core sets!

FFG, really, if you start producing a complementary set (just a box with some "already used" art and the cards inside, nothing else, you do not need to pay for more art nor for new card designs to get more money), I will start buying your LotR LCG right at that moment. I really think that you will be able to earn more money if you release that "complementary core set", because some people just do not want to buy the 2nd core set because it is not going to be "complete" anyways, but if you realease that at the same price of the core set (which is unfair for us!), I think that many people are going to buy them, people that was not going to buy the 2nd core set. And everybody would be happy with the format.

And just for the record, I bought the Netrunner because I LOVE cyberpunk, because I LOVE card games, because I LOVE (D) Magic the Gathering/Richard Garfield, and because people gave very nice scores to the game, but I was about no NOT to buy the game because of the awful core set format dilema.

Excuse me, can a moderator delete one of the topics? I had a problem with my browser and I send it twice :-(, sorry.

The easy solution is to make color copies of the cards you want from the Core set and insert them in front of other cards in card sleeves (which keeps the cards from getting beat up and worn). I've been doing this since the Core set came out and it works just fine. I barely can tell the real cards from the copied cards.

I'm one of those who owns one coreset and I would never consider to buy a second or even a third one. I don't miss them and enjoy the challenge of building decks without some of the super-powerful cards. Just buy one coreset and be happy with it.

I've been playing this game quite steadily since it came out (often with three or four players) with a single core set. More copies of some cards would be nice, but it's no big deal.

I have 3 copies of the core set and I can tell you that I think it's totally worth it…I bought them for a total of about 70 euros on thebookdepository (cheaper way to get things) and every expansion costs about 10 euros there (the big ones 20)…since you are a guy who used to play Magic (the biggest moneystealing game of all the games of all times) from Wizards of the Coast (the biggest moneystealing company of all the companies of all time) I think the price to have all the cards of a FFG LCG is so much smaller that I never thought about complaining…yes a complete core ste would be great thing…but getting 2 or 3 CS costs more or less like getting 1 x4 set of "useful" magic cards… do you guys know what I mean ?…so I say…"thank you FFG for putting something in the market that can compete with these thievish thugs" !

ive also been playing since release with 1 core set ….no problems but i do have another on the way because this game (and tolkien in general) is my main passion and i have no problems getting a 2nd set and having useless cards.

as far as think, im happy to support FFG…they are creating my dream game here, and im happy to keep the doing that

rich

I play with one core set: I have since the game was first realeased. I also own all of the cards printed for public sell up to this date. I enjoy the game just fine. I agree with you; FF probably knew what kind of marketing racket they were brewing up when they decided to short some of the better cards in the core set, but I can hardly blame them. I chose to buy the game because The Lord of the Rings is my favorite past-time topic, and another game does not exist like this one. The artwork alone is worth buying. You can always pick up a second core set and then have a complete set of the game's most powerful cards. I have been tempted to buy a second one since the game started, but for some reason, I just haven't.

Answering most of you:

Yes, the LCG format is a great idea, the only problem are the core sets. From here and from other forums I have the idea that very few people buy 3 core sets, some people 2 (but a minority) and the vast majority just buy 1. It seems to me that they can make quite more money by releasing a "complementary core set" for the price of the core set (It would be more fair for us to be a bit less, but even at the same price…), because I am right if I think that many of the ones that did not buy more than one core set would buy that complementary set? Because, at least for me, thinking of bying 2 core sets and not having all the cards is quite awful in some way, even if it can be better than the "buying just one" option (I love thinking strategies doing deckbuilding, and if someone is used to that, he will know that the games change a lot when you are able to build good decks in comparison to have bad compensated ones, in any way).

Is not that I can live with just 1 core set. I am pretty sure that if you can live with that, you could live with expansion sets with some "rare" cards coming just once, others twice, and others three by expansion… :-/

I tried to find a post I read a while back that summarizes my thoughts, no luck, so here goes:

FFG had several variables to balance regarding the core set's creation:

cost: a price point that both the casual gamer and hardcore gamer would be willing to spend
card depth: balance the number of unique cards in the box vs multiple copies of cards
player type: there are those who will only purchase the core set and have a great experience, there are those that will purchase one core set and several expansions, and final those that will purchase multiple core sets plus expansions. I would guess that the great majority of purchases fall into the first two categories.

Now, I'm not going to say FFG made the perfect choice regarding balance, but I'm sure they weighed all of these variables to create the best product they could. I'm sure there were meetings where the designers and the cost accountants argued for hours.

The product that the hardcore gamers want includes 3 copies of each card, 4 threat trackers, and twice as many tokens. What if this increased the cost of the base game to $60. Would you still buy it? For the hardcore, yes. But there would be many people who would consider that price as a barrier to entry… people that would otherwise love the game.

I'm no expert on card/board game manufacturing, but I assume cards are printed in sheets that are later cut. Let's say there are 9 (maybe 12) cards per sheet. I bet that the number of cards in the core set is a multiple of the number of cards per sheet. There was not one blank spot left over in the original design. The decision was probably made to stop at a certain number of sheets to avoid additional printing, cutting, and packaging costs.

Printing a "core set completion" pack is also not trivial. The printing sheets would need to be laid out for the manufacturer. There would be new packaging, marketing, and shipping costs, and the opportunity cost of a designer's time. And then, how many people would really buy it compared to the number of people buying new APs? It's a huge barrier for FFG.

I'm not trying to be a defensive FFG fanboy, I'm just trying to highlight some of the business realities. We might see a print on demand option, but I would guess that we will never see it.

On the side, last Christmas, the price of the core set dropped to $21 on Amazon.

FFGgamer said:

if i understand this correctly, then absolutely not. i certainly wouldn't like the idea of 'rares' in expansion sets. ffg released core set with not all cards having 3 copies - this is fine….annoying, but its gone and we can either make do with 1 set or get more…

however the expansions are different- these are the bulk of the game. the core set is just the launch pad if you like. these packs need to have 3 in, or else why have the lcg format at all?

no, i can, and did, make do with 1 core set for 2 years up till now, but the packs are a different matter

@durin- i also held off for a long time, i didnt see the point. but now i play 2 and 3 handed, i see the need for the extra copies of cards that even we got 3 of in the core set….for when i am running both decks with the same spheres in

i would recommend it…but as i say- not a must have

@devastazione- i agree, personally i love tolkien and middle earth to the point where i would pay 'magic' prices (though i never have played the game).

rich

I've never understood this problem. Sure, nice with 3 copies of all cards but so what if you have to get one or two extra start set? You can get it for as low as $18. You can't afford $40 in the long run? What it all comes down to is principles, not money really. I couldn't care less with excess cards and other think its horrible. I'm not saying that isn't a valid viewpoint. I'm just saying that no matter what, FFG is not going to change it, not going to make any packs to complete the set, so we either shot up and enjoy it or make a lot of fuss…and enjoy it anyway all points are valid but nothing we say will make a difference.

mr.thomasschmidt said:

i actually used a lot of the rewards credits i have saved up on my supplier site to get a 2nd core set so it worked out rather well

….well i actually used a mixture of rewards points and credits…i never wanted to spend £20 ish all at once, so what i did was put £2-3 into credits each week- then hey presto! a 2nd core set

this is the way i buy all my packs- its a bit sad, but i dont mind admitting that haha

rich

@ Rich : I really love Toliken and Tolkien Lore a lot (much more than a lot actually)…I never stop reading his work (I'm always re-reading something…I used to read them in italian when I was younger, so it's been only a few years since I started to fully enjoy the original work and that's another reason for me re-reading them so much…because in english it's much better !) that said I stil would not spend "Magic" money on a game (any game) because I think it's a theft fair and square. I still can't understand people who spend like 100 $ for a set of 4 for cards (for an averagely good card…not even a great one)…that much for a lame game by the way…

About the FFG Core sets thing I have to say I agree with Thanatopsis. I play AGOT and Star Wars LCGs as well and I think their marketing is fine this way, because every game has his own problem. For exemple, in star wars you get 1X from each core set (and you need 2X) but if they had done it differently I'm quite certain the casual player wouldn't have bought it. My personal experience with LCGs is another good exemple. My girlfriend wanted to play this AGOT card game I didn't know anything about so she bought the core set (for about 25 euros) and we really enjoyed it… and in time we got expansions, LOTR lcg and its packs, now star wars and its packs…my point is, if that core set had costed like 50 or more euros my girlfriend would never have bought it and I probably would not know how great the LCG format is.

@Thanatopsis: In my first post, I already argued that it could not be just because of increased core set costs because they could just release a simple box with a complementary pack (they do not even have to do new art,… nothing new), but what it seems to me is that they thought that they could get less money because of the people that was going to buy 3 core sets. I would just wanted to demonstrate is that many people would buy that complementary set if they decide to do one, people that bought just one core set (and probably very few people like me, that would like have all the cards at some point and do not want to buy 3 core sets. are you tired of MTG? me too, but I do not want to acept just any other option even when it is "unfair").

@mr.thomasschmidt: About the price, fyi at least here in Europe you pay AT LEAST 30€/set in the chepest way (Amazon) and it is a sale! (usually 32€). 32€ x3 = 96€ (124$) + shipping for a proper starter set + start buying the expansions… I do not know your case, but 30-60€ make a difference for me right now (I hope not in the future, but right now yes, and this is the start of an LCG, not a closed game, so 90€… ufff).

@richsabre: So when do you say NO? Just if they do that after the core set? And if they do it in the first 3 expansions? How much are you willing to spend over the "real price" of a product? I hope you do not go to a Netrunner/LotR tournament and face people with 3 core sets if you just have one. After some time is this going to be "diluted"? I do not think it is going to be "completely" dilted (*), and right now I want to spend just some money, play, and do some decks, and I would be on my nerves if I pay 60€ + Shipping for 2 core sets and feel in the need to put 3 cards of the "1 in core set" type, as it happened to me on Netrunner with Desperado, Corporate Troubleshooter and Ice Carver (you probabbly would not ever want to include 3 of any of the other "rares". rares and costly cards, and you do not even see them on ebay anymore right now) -> costly because 35€/3 = 11,67€ each card (yes 35€ is the normal price for the Netrunner set in Europe, and is what I paid for each one, shipping not included, 40€ in some places. as sale, it can be 30€, but as a SALE, that is not a normal price, and usually you will not wait months to see a sale like that).

And before you tell me that there is no point to put 3 of these cards, apart from my personal taste (where there is nothing to argue), you can go and see diferent tournament decks, like these (this is an example, I invite you to going google and check):

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/965710/top-8-decklists-from-420-32-player-netrunner-regio

Do you like the 3rd and 5th position decks? You "just" bought 2 core sets as me paying 70€+shipping + all the expansions? Ok, you simply cannot put 3 Desperados, sorry. Buy a 3rd core set or change to… Magic? No. Ok, buy the set… NO. So… just acept it. Ok, I did it in Netrunner, pls not the same in LotR…

(*) In Netrunner Desperado, Corporate Troubleshooter, and Ice Carver are not going to dissapear from many decks. They are very good cards, I even continue using Desperado over the new criminal console… And seems that in LotR there are also very good cards coming just once as "rares"…

Just in case you did not notice, I was arguing about 2 vs 3 core sets, because at least in Netrunner, to be competitive with just 1 core set + expansions is completely out of the question.

Other options?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Android-Netrunner-Core-Set-Completion-Cards-/261220189091

But he does not ship overseas…

I will look for similar packs for LotR… if you find someone, tell me please.

Thanks

Man you really need to buy stuff from thebookdepository (free shipping cots)…me and my girlfriend never paid more than 25 euros for a core set and we own 3 LOTR core sets, three AGOT core sets and 2 Star Wars core sets (these ones we paid 23 each)…of course you don't want to get more than one if you have to pay 30 E plus shipping ! (still a better price than a lame CCG though)…

i do not think that using words such as 'rares' and 'powercards' is a fair way to talk about lotr lcg. its not the same concept. the 'rare' cards we got in the core set arent neccessarily must have cards. here are some off the top of my head

celebrians stone: great card up until the end of the first cycle, then it starts to loose its touch when you have much more synergies to play with- especially the build up of dwarf characters

unexpected courage: again- great card, but its not a must have. theres many ways of readying characters. i know alot of people who dont even both to include it in a deck. you have hobbits? use fast hitch. allies? use ever vigilant. dont want to exhaust in the first place? use a card such as light of valinor.

horn of gondor: nice theme card. good if you have eagles, but again not a power card.

i could go on, but i think my point is that, although i cant speak for other games, in this game the rare cards aren't amazingly powerful. if someone really doesnt want to buy 2/3 core sets then they should just build their card pool with the expansions….in that way those rare cards, which may seem great in core, loose any auto include temptations.

as for the tournament decks….well a year ago perhaps i would have agreed with you. i would have said those with access to 3 unexecpted courages would have an immediate advantage (not that this game has developed much of a tournament scene yet)

however- with the current card pool this is no longer so. again my point is that these rare cards are overwhelmed by far more powerful synergies. take the new outlands for example. they have nothing to do with rares. they dont need any rares to set them up and get them effectively in play. you have 3 copies automaticaly of each, and they are some of the most powerful cards in the game (some would say most powerful)

as for how much would i spend? well, i would spend a fair bit, but no, i guess not magic prices as devastazione points out!

but this game is what it is. the core set came out- i bought it for UK price ~£25. then 2 cycles of packs have came out at ~£10 each. 2 saga and 2 deluxe packs around ~£20 each.

ffg arent going to raise the price much more than that - certainly no more than what im willing to pay. people would stop buying their products.

rich

FFGgamer said:

I'm from Norway and here it cost MAX €26 for the starter set. Also, as Rich said, he bought his second set after a long time so you won't need it for a good time. You get a package that is just fine in the core set, not perfect, and if you want to make it perfect you gotta pay for it. Really simple. You won't need it, as there's plenty of great decks just using the cards from one core set. But if you wanna be a perfectionist sure you gotta need a little more money. I'm not trying to say you don't have a valid point, as I stated before, I just don't understand why people NEED 2, 3 core sets. Of cause I can understand why you WANT it. Even though there's a risk of breaking the game by getting 3 copies of the most powerful cards. Note I said there's a RISK. It won't mean that you WILL break the game, but you MIGHT. There's a lot of threads on this forum where people have complained over the game getting to easy from the beginning. Until they understood that the first quests where tailored to the core set cards. Just saying it. And for the record, as a matter of fact I don't really fancy any of the decks from the link you shared. A matter of taste. So I will never NEED to buy more core sets even though I'll probably get a second and a third. If for nothing else then just supporting FFG

I have just seen that in The Book Depository it is on sale for 25€, thanks! I am now thinking of getting two core sets (+ one or two expansions?). I do not think about one core set not just about not being able to be good, completition,… but that I want the number of copies of a card in a deck of X cards to make sense. I mean, 1 copy in 45-60 cards is a one-shoot per game card, that you do not want until a very precise moment of the game (too much cost, very precise effect that you do not want usually,… whatever). If you have cards like that but being cards that really makes sense and are useful at any moment, the luck is gonna be a too much important factor, and the deck identity is diluted into a circus . I think you know what I mean. That applies to all the number of copies of a card (althought in Netrunner because of the bluffing caracter of some thinks, it makes sense to have for example 1 kind of trap + 1 kind of a different trap, so that if the oponent sees the first, the next time he thinks it can be a trap, will think of the same type). Ah, ok, there can be also search effects, but…

As I keep saying - the only way to really get the extra cards is for a second core set sized product to be made, which has all new quests, and some new cards and new heroes, as well as fillling in the missing cards from the core set. Then stick in some new tokens and trackers and call it the core set part 2, or (my personal choice) theme it around really trying to support 3 and 4 player games.

Make the quests ones designed to be played with 3 and 4 ideally (with options for less that work okay), make the cards ones that benefit more players (like that card that gives every player +1 card).

Obviously it needs to be viable enough for those of us that usually play 1 or 2 player. Which is probably most people. Still - I think it could be good to have some stuff that really suits a bigger group, especially if the nightmare tournament idea picks up (and so more players congregate together).