Can you play a card if there are no legal targets in play? For example, can you play Force Lightning, pay all costs, have it do nothing cuz there are no exhausted units in play, then trigger Vader's reaction to deal 1 damage to something?

And please back up your answer with a reference to at least one of the following:

a) Rulebook

b) FAQ

c) Official FFG email

Micah

That came up in the tournament today, and none of us could remember where that was. Thank you.

Micah

Follow up question:

Someone made the point that the statement "if there is no legal target, then the effect cannot be initiated" does not prevent a player from paying for a card and discarding it without effect, it simply means the card does nothing when you pay for it. The effect itself it prevented from being initiated, but the card can still be paid for and played. They compared it to canceling an effect (such as 3P0 canceling a Force Lightning, which would still allow a DS player to use Vader's reaction). The card is still played, just the effect is prevented from happening.

Micah

page 5 of the faq effect resoulution
1) check play restrictions: can the card be played, or the effect initiated, at this time?
2) Determine cost (or costs, if multiple costs are required) to play the card or initiate the effect
3) apply modiffiers to the cost
4) pay the cost(s)
5) choose target(s), if applicable
6) the card is played, or the effect resolves

page 3 of faq (3.1) cancellation of effects effect that are canceled are still considered to have been initiated or played……

short answer no

you can't get past step 1 of effect resoution for an effect that targets if there is no target so you don't get to pay costs which is step 4

and to cancel an effect it must of got to step 6 of effect resoulution for it to be able to be canceled

so not having a target for an effect that targets is different from an effect that has been canceled

If you really want to submit this one for an official answer, there's a link hiding at the bottom of the page (under the copyright information). I'm pretty confident that the answer will come back that you can't play the event without legal target with the explanation that starting to play an event = initiating the effects of the event, but I can't give you a more official answer than my read of it.

Edit - Ninja'd with an even better explanation. These boards used to warn you when somebody had posted…

my computer had an issue while i was posting and froze up i had to write that all again

You happened to be at DSG last night Micah?

I agree with Valdrain and dbmeboy, if it says target, you must have a target as implied by Step 1 for checking play restrictions. Getting around the play restriction is like playing a card that says "play only during your turn" during your opponent's turn. It's just not a legal play.

However… this brings up another question I had during this tournament. Assume there are not Hoth objectives in play from me or my opponent. Can I play The Desolation of Hoth for the same purpose?

"Move any amount of damage from a Hoth objective you control to a target enemy unit or Hoth objective" The word target isn't in play here for moving damage off the Hoth objective. Can this one be played for sole purposes of dealing out one damage?

theChony said:

Per the rules, I think that works as long as there is an enemy unit or Hoth objective in play to target. I do this often with A Disturbance in the Force when my opponent has nothing committed.

dbmeboy said:

Made it official for those playing along at home. My TO is striking out…

Q: Can "The Desolation of Hoth" be played by Dark Side if DS has no Hoth objective in play, but there is a target enemy unit? Action: Move any amount of damage from a Hoth objective you control to a target enemy unit, or Hoth objective

A: Hello,

You mean play it to move 0 damage? The damage must come from a Hoth objective you control, so if you did play it without a Hoth objective you would move 0 damage. It can be played, as the only target check is a target enemy unit or Hoth objective, but there is no damage that can be moved.

Nate French
Senior LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

Can I pay the costs for a card with no valid targets, just to get it out of my hand? Example, can I play Talon Roll with no Fighters in play, for no effect?

ZombieTonyBlair said:

This is basically my original question.

Turns out the answer is no, for the reasons given in the posts above.

Micah

I'm not completely convinced by the logic that step 1 checks for what step 5 deals with. I'm also not completely convinced the "no target" equal "play restriction". Could someone explain those leaps of logic further, or show where FFG has ruled in similar situations before?

There is no need for a ruling. It was written in the original rules as dbmeboy already posted. Page 27 under Target:

"If there is no valid target for a targeting effect, the effect cannot be initiated"

Cannot - the golden rule that supercedes all.

"Effects cannot initiated" is not the same thing as "cannot be played"

The example in question is explicitly playing a card and not having it's effects resolve.

ZombieTonyBlair said:

But it is. From the FAQ, top of page 5:

"When a player wishes to play a card, take an action, or initiate an interrupt, or reaction effect, he first declares his intent. The following steps are then observed, in order:
1) Check play restrictions: can the card be played, or
the effect initiated, at this time?"

Since step 1 fails, (no target = effect cannot be initiated), the card cannot be played(which is step 6 of this process). So having a valid target is a play restriction.

Step one sounds to me like it's checking the timing on the action. Is it in the right action window, has the trigger for the reaction or the interupt been met, ect. I don't understand why there would be a seperate stage for targeting if you've already had to check targeting in stage one.

"Effect initiated" seems to be refering to "reaction effect" in the leading sentence, and the distinction between "can the card be played" and "the effects be initiated" seems to pointing to the difference between playing a card and using an ability on a card in play. You can't play C3PO's interupt as a card, so the stage 1 wouldnt' make sense without the sentence also refering to effects from cards in play.

I totally understand your interpretation, but I'm still not 100% sold that is what the rule is supposed to be.

I reread the FAQ, to try and find where I got this idea in my head, and I found this

Can I use the ability on the Tribal Support (Core 0151)

objective to discard a card from my hand even if there

are no Ewok units in my discard pile?

Yes, you can. The Tribal Support objective does not

target anything. You can initate an effect that does

not target even if you cannot complete that action

successfully.

However, this logically also says that if you don't have legal targets, you can't play the card. I stand corrected.

ZombieTonyBlair said:

To me that also seems correct. Tribal Support does not contain the word "target." It simply says to discard and follow through with the effect. If there was a card that read "Action: Place a focus on an enemy unit" that wording does not contain the word "target," so I think in that case you could play it if there were no enemy units.

But if an action says "target" you need a target to initiate the effect, and be able to play the card.