Response: After Blood Magic Ritual comes out of Shadows, choose a non-Army character in your dead pile and put it into play. Attach Blood Magic Ritual to it. If Blood Magic Ritual leaves play kill attached character.

How would Blood Magic Ritual work on a No Attachments character? Basicly it sounds like The character would enter play, the attachment would leave play and the character would stay in play

Yup, that's how I read it too.

Hang on, wouldn't you just be precluded from choosing a No Attachments character in the first place? I read he first two sentences as play instructions; since they can't be completed because of the No Attachments restriction, the No Attachments character simply isn't a valid target for BMR. Similar to how you cannot even attempt to target an Immune to Events character with an event or attempt to move a chain to a Maester whose text box has been blanked. It's not that the action initiates and fails; the action cannot be initiated if it won't succeed.

Where am I going wrong?

Characters in the dead or discard piles don't have keywords afaik.

Rehlow said:

But the game looks forward enough to check and see if a triggered effect will resolve successfully. So even if the character has no keywords in the dead pile, and I don't know that's true, once the character is in play, the keyword takes effect again, which prevents BMR from attaching. I can't see how the effect can be initiated in the first place if it cannot successfully resolve.

Where has this card been revealed? I haven't seen it yet. Do people on here have some other source of leaked and/or revealed cards?

Actually, the game does not check whether an effect will be successful. It only checks whether targets are valid, play restrictions are met and costs can be paid. Reading the card (which has indeed been spoiled - probably from the uncut cards that were around at the French Regional), the only restriction here is the targetting, which only specifies "a non- Army character in your dead pile". So, regardless of keywords, you put the character into play, try and fail to attach the event and the character stays in play because the card was never attached to it.

This is one of those cards that on the face of it seems good and then when it actually is applied correctly turns out to be excellent. A great card for getting Dragons back into play from death.

Card details are on AGOT where they have published 5/6 cards from the next chapter pack due to be released.

Khudzlin said:

This is what I believe is also the way Blood Magic Ritual plays because of everything he just said. You cannot even attempt to do the attaching part of the effect on a "no attachments" or "only X attachments" character pulled out.

So, how is Rusted Sword any different?

"Attached character gets +2 STR and gains a icon.
Any Phase: Kneel 1 influence to attach Rusted Sword from your hand to a character you control."

All we need to do to trigger the effect is pay 1 influence. We have no target requirement. In theory, I could trigger this effect without any eligible character to attach Rusted Sword to. Is this correct?

If not, then is "attach to eligible character" a play restriction within the triggered effect?
If yes, then would "attach to eligible character" also be a play restriction of Blood Magic Ritual?

The rulebook (I know, who reads this?) says a character with the "No attachments" keyword may not have attachments on it at any time. We know that "cannot" is synonymous with "cannot", so that means you're not allowed to try to attach it.

Khudzlin said:

Yes, but I can still trigger Rusted Sword's effect, and thus end up discarding it without having any eligible characters to attach it to. That is the point I was trying to make.

Otherwise, why couldn't I trigger Rusted Sword without any eligible characters to attach it to? If it's an implicit play restriction on Rusted Sword, then wouldn't it also be an implicit play restriction on Blood Magic Ritual?

Bomb is making the point that I tired to make and failed.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Per the rules as we read them, Rusted Sword can be triggered without any eligible characters to attach to, and thus gets discarded. If that is not true, then I think it sets a precedent for Blood Magic Ritual.

Bomb said:

Correct

Bomb said:

This isn't correct. You will be prevented from initiating the effect if there are no legal targets. This is the same reason you can not trigger TMP's response when you have a printed Maester that does not currently have the printed Maester trait.

Additionally, on my first reading of this card I missed the fact that this is not a clarification of how the card comes out of Shadows. This is ACTUALLY a response to it coming out of Shadows. The reason for this is that it must enter play to be able to trigger the response. This means that you must first succesffuly attach it to another character. Then when you bring in the new character, it will fail to bring over the attachment to it and it sticks on the original character. If the originally attached character dies, so does the Army. For comparison, look at Dragon Skull:

Response: After Dragon Skull comes out of Shadows, attach it to an opponent's character or discard it from play.

This text is meaningless. You could do this regardless of it having the text. This is obviously a clarification. Whereas:

Response: After Blood Magic Ritual comes out of Shadows, choose a non-Army character in your dead pile and put it into play. Attach Blood Magic Ritual to it. If Blood Magic Ritual leaves play kill attached character.

This is obviously not a clarification. Note that the attach action is actually the second effect on the card. This differs from the rest of the shadows cards with clarification text. This is an effect that meets its trigger condition after you have successfully attached Blood Magic Ritual to a character. It almost looks as if its intentionally designed for No Attachment characters so that you can throw it on an opponent's character. Then they will have to decide if they want to kill their character and your army at the same time or leave your army alive. This would be a very traditional interpretation of a "Blood Magic Ritual" as well, blood magic that curses the afflicted.

I'm afraid you're dead wrong there.

The text on how to attach a shadows attachment to a character is *not* simply a clarification. This has been … ahem… clarified multiple times.

FAQ:

Khudzlin said:

Good, I asked this same question on AGoTCards and althouth I havent seen all the responses yet, the initial answers were that I couldnt choose a "no attachments" character.

"This is the same reason you can not trigger TMP's response when you have a printed Maester that does not currently have the printed Maester trait."

Sorry that is not completly correct. You can chose a maester with the printed maester trait as a target for The Maester Path Agenda if the chain you are moving off the agenda is the apprentice collar then it stays on the maester. Just an FYI

The most recent Ktom ruling on that contradicts you, Jon.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=793329&efpag=1#796769

However, that discussion (about checking all play restrictions) suggests nothing that contradicts your Blood Magic interpretation.

-Istaril said:

If I remember correctly (and I can't remember the thread), someone posted a reply from FFG rules question email that contradicts that. I may be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think I am.

It's so cute that people call ktom chiming in outside of a tournament with his interpretation as a judge a ruling.

He's right about 95% of the time, but he is, in fact, just a tournament judge, and not final authority on everything .

That thread actually includes a ruling from Damon supporting Ktom's interpretation.

I have edited my post to be correct, however a ruling i was involved in at a major ffg event was decide in a different matter. It really does not matter since the rule we are intrested in here is blood magic ritual.

stormwolf27 said:

I have no problem having faith in his rulings. He is the Gencon and World's judge for this game for a reason. He is the best rules interpreter we have. When we don't agree with his interpretations, we talk about it and finally go to FFG for an official ruling.

mdc273 said:

You are sort of supporting the point I was trying to make by trying to disprove it . I wanted to find previous triggered effects that involved attachments being attached that were not allowed to be triggered without valid eligible characters to attach to.

I guess "valid eligible characters" is indeed a play restriction for such effects. However, the biggest difference between Blood Magic Ritual and those like TMP is that you have no character to check such a play restiction against until mid-way through the effect. Because of this, you must complete the remainder of the effect as much as possible.

1. START "Choose 1 character and put it into play." STOP

2. START "Attach Blood Magic Ritual to it." STOP

3. START "Do a little dance, get down tonight." STOP

4. START "Say the alphabet backwards." STOP

5. START "Kill attached character when Blood Magic Ritual leaves play." STOP

-Istaril said:

Uhh… My emphasis in bold… How could you interpret that as anything but a clarification since it literally says it?

Additionally I never argued that it did not come into play. Please re-read what I said:

" Additionally, on my first reading of this card I missed the fact that this is not a clarification of how the card comes out of Shadows. This is ACTUALLY a response to it coming out of Shadows. "

I have already established that Blood Magic Ritual's response is not a traditional explanation and clarification of how a Shadow card attaches, but I will do it again. Let's look at the similar cards:

• "After A Pinch of Powder comes out of Shadows, attach it to a character. Limited Response: After you win an Intrigue or Power challenge by 3 or more STR, return the attached character to its owner's hand. Then, you may kneel 3 influence to return A Pinch of Powder to Shadows. (Limit 1 limited response per round.)"
• "Response: After Dragon Skull comes out of Shadows, attach it to an opponent's character or discard it from play."
• "Response: After Maester Malleon's Tome comes out of Shadows, attach it to a unique character. Then, if it is Winter, look at an opponent's unused plot deck, and move a plot card from that plot deck to that player's used plot pile."
• "Response: After Turncloak comes out of Shadows during the challenges phase, attach it to an opponent's character."
• "After Venomous Blade comes out of Shadows, attach it to a character you control. Then, choose and kill an opponent's character with printed STR 2 or less."

Blood Magic Ritual does not follow this template. The attach effect is the SECOND effect on the card. This would highlight a significant and unprecedented difference in the card's templating. I am using this significant and unprecedented difference to establish that this is not in fact an explanation and clarification.

If it is not an explanation and clarification, then it must be a true response. If it is a true response, this means that it must first find its home as an attachment on a character. There is no explicit rule that says a Shadows attachment must have explanation and clarification text. It is in fact unnecessary as the rules explicitly establish that Shadows attachments function as normal attachments when coming out of Shadows. This means that its lack of clarification text means it functions as a normal attachment after coming out of Shadows and must attach to a legal target, in this case a character. Then, you trigger the response.

1. Attempt to bring Blood Magic Ritual out of Shadows by attaching it to any legal character in play.
2. Trigger Blood Magic Ritual
3. Choose and return an Army character.
4. Attach Blood Magic Ritual to Army character
5. Establish conditional, lasting effect with an infinite duration that kills attached character if Blood Magic Ritual leaves play.

There is no evidence to conclude that Blood Magic Ritual functions differently from this without contacting Damon. Its templating is unprecedented. Therefore, if you pick a No Attachment Army, it simply stays on the original character and kills the original character when it leaves play as it is still attached to the original character.

It also means you can not use it if there are no characters in play, which also makes sense thematically. If there is no one to use Blood Magic on, you can't use it.

Also your timing on Black Cells is not accurate. It would be:

1. Blood Magic Ritual attempts to come out of Shadows
2. Blood Magic Ritual fails to attach and is discarded without entering play
3. Black Cells trigger condition is not met. A card did not come ouf of Shadows. A card was discarded from the Shadows play area.

3 is established by the next sentence after the emphasis:

"If the Shadow card cannot legally attach (or the attempt to attach is canceled) the card is instead discarded and is not considered to have come into play."

@Bomb - Your timing is really complicated as you appear to be assuming that Blood Magic Ritual enters play. Note that it does not ever enter play if you assume it attempts to attach directly to the Army. Note the explanation I give for 3 above.

So the actual timing under what appears to be your assumption would be

1. Blood Magic Ritual attempts to come out of Shadows
2. No Attachments Army is returned to play
3. Blood Magic Ritual goes to the discard pile.

Blood Magic Ritual never enters play and therefore can not leave play. I do not believe this interpretation of the card is accurate as I have explained above.