As Only War seems to have the most current momentum, I thought it best to share my musings on its forum.

There exist examples of weapons requiring the Exotic or other "specialized" Weapon Training Talents in order to use them without incurring penalties to to-hit rolls. Weapon Training Talents such as Flame, Plasma, Melta, and others, all imply PCs and NPCs must have the appropriate training in order to use these types of weapons to their greatest potential. These types of weapons are not just organized into categories (such as Flame, Plasma, Melta, etc.), they also possess Weapon Qualities of the same designation. As I am wont to do, I picked at this particular thread in the weave and was inspired to take a closer look at other Weapon Qualities, such as Tearing, Devastating and Felling.

One might take the view that weapons such as the humble Chainsword or the noble Boltgun possess the Tearing Weapon Quality as a natural assumption of their operation; Chainswords are fitted with a whirring chain of mono-bladed teeth, and it makes a sort of logical sense that "tearing" is what the Chainsword was intended to do (and does), while the Boltgun's blessed ammunition, mass-reactive bolts, explodes within a target a fraction of a second after penetration, "tearing" the target to shreds of meat and bloody mist. It then appears as if this Quality is simply taken for granted; use these, get this.

But this is not the Weapon Quality that piqued my interest. Personally speaking, I feel the Weapon Training Talents of Chain and Bolt are sufficient to let you know what you're getting when you use those weapons. It was Felling that first stuttered my investigation. The Damage of a Lascarbine and a Long Las are identical, d10+3, and the Long Las has a Penetration value that is one meager point above that of the Lascarbine. Yet the Long Las possesses the Felling (4) Quality, so any rube with Weapon Training Las can pick one up and use it with skill and efficiency equal to the thousands of other women and men in the trenches? Sure, the Long Las also possesses the Accurate Weapon Quality, but so to does the Vanquisher Cannon. Does this mean an Operator with Operate (Ground) knows how to transfer the martial skills she's honed using her Accurate Vanquisher Cannon if she should suddenly find herself using a Long Las? I don't think so.

I strongly feel Weapon Training (Felling) should be added the list of Talents. I'm not meaning to imply I know how I would go about reworking/reorganizing rules to make its inclusion seamless; I hadn't given that thought any consideration of time; only that I feel it makes as much sense as any of the other plainly silly (read as arbitrary) mechanics included in the rules. The Devastating Weapon Quality is not listed in the Only War Core Rules, so I'll include only that my thoughts on it follow likewise. As a short aside: why is it not included in Only War? It's included in Black Crusade. Are the embattled forces of the Periphery immune to devastating weapons?

Additionally, while I was looking at this loose thread regarding Felling, I fell into the absurd logic of Swift Attack and Lightning Attack. These are Talents PCs and NPCs must have if they want to score additional hits on their targets during the course of a melee. These are Talents that require the expenditure of XP, and additionally mandate some prerequisite Skill value and/or Talent. But anybody, even a two-year old Cadian (who can shoot before she can walk? Really? "Well sure", she said in incredulity. "I can put a gun into any wee toddler's hands and it might pull the trigger…") can pick up a Las weapon with the Semi or Full Auto RoF and bang out excess shots? I'm not necessarily as rigid on this topic; I know it's a "Galaxy of Guns" and it's "Only War"; but perhaps someone might look into the inequity of pumping XP into prerequisite Skill values and Talents as opposed to just getting Weapon Training (Las) for free by sheer dint of being some poor habwife drummed into a regimental founding and tell me if it still makes sense? I mean, if I can pick up a Las weapon and fire Semi or Full Auto without rigorous training, I guess a Felling Long Las isn't that far a stretch after all, right? Sure, melees happen. But if you've been trained to use a gun, and only occasionally afix a bayonet, why not just run away? Yeah, yeah…Commissars. Shoot them on Full Auto, then run. All joking aside, as with the various and sundry other silly mechanics, I feel it makes perfect sense that PCs and NPCs would know what they're getting when they pull the trigger for a single shot, but it's taken for granted that Semi and Full Auto fire requires the same level of training; perhaps a penalty to BS Tests akin to off-handed Attack penalties when firing a weapon on Semi or Full Auto if they do not possess a requisite BS value and Weapon Training (Las, Semi-Auto), which itself would be a prerequisite Talent for Weapon Training (Las, Full Auto). All this flip-flopping on Semi and Full Auto fire taking this many or that many Actions and having this penalty or that penalty, when treating it exactly as Swift and Lightning Attack may likely have leveled the playing field with the very first errata released for Dark Heresy. Again, one might simply take the abilities of ranged weapons for granted, but in the context I've presented, my musing makes as much sense as anything else printed between the binding covers of Only War. For that matter, why not simply do away with Swft Attack and Lightning Attack? Why can't a combatant furiously swish her melee weapon about in hopes of striking her target(s) multiple times for no more than a (possible) penalty to her WS? Because it takes a measure of skill to use a melee weapon thusly? Eh?

I'm not getting into SA/LA (which I think should not have been changed from its original form).

But Felling is there mainly for sniper weapons, so that you can one-shot big guys. Maybe (4) for the long las is too large, but without it you could not one-shot an Ork Boy (or do so only with great difficulty) with your sniper weapon (without doing the math in my head). Even as things stand, you need a pretty good roll, and to pull this off with a Nob you'd better be a **** good shot with lots of Mighty Shots and Crack Shots and so forth. EDIT: OK you could do the Boy with Felling (2).

Maybe you could introduce a "sniper weapons" Talent, but not a Felling one, because it's not a kind of weapon, but a trait that accrues to certain kinds of weapons.

Vehicle weapons use the Operate skill in lieu of a Training Talent, so I don't see the issue here.

bogi_khaosa said:

Part, the First:
I'm in agreement regarding Swift Attack and Lightning Attack.
Now, what about Semi-Auto and Full Auto Fire? With the Black Crusade and Only War mechanics, should SA and FA Fire be restricted in similar ways? Or, if going back to DH, RT, and/or DW mechanics, should there be various levels of, for example, Weapon Training (Basic)? Such as Weapon Training (Basic, SP, Single), (Basic, SP, Semi), and (Basic, SP, Full)? Maybe the XP cost is insignificant (50 for Semi, 100 for Full)? This might, in the long course, reduce the number of weapons whose full functionality can be employed by PCs, which is not a bad thing in my opinion.

Part, the Second:
I fully understand the underpinning concept of Felling, that it is meant to mitigate Unnatural Toughness modifiers. However, I personally do not think it makes sense for simply anyone using the weapon being able to utilize the Felling Quality without proper and specific training. Something similar: My guardswoman finds herself in possession of a Power Sword. She does not have Weapon Training (Power), and attempting to use the sword to its full effect will result in penalties to hit. But what if she were to not ignite the Power Field? Could she then use the weapon as a normal sword without penalties? I'm inclined to say yes. It then stands to reason that you may utilize a weapon's Accurate Quality, as the weapon was designed to provide more accuracy, its benefit of quality production being inherent to the weapon itself, but without proper training the attempted use of its Felling Weapon Quality would make the weapon more difficult to use.

Anyone can shoot a gun, and anyone can take more time and concentrate to score a more accurate hit, but knowing the physical weaknesses of your target is quite a different thing. Big game hunters don't just wander into the bush with whatever gun they happened to have in their coat closet because they are excellent markswomen. They take specific weapons for specific targets.

If we take a look at animals that exist in the wild today, it's rather easy to understand that not all of them will succumb to the same techniques and tools used to kill them. Leaving out the fact most big game hunters want a trophy to mount on their walls, we might assume that head shots are the quickest path to an animal kill. But the African antelope, a notoriously frequent head-butter, has a cranial thickness that could very well deflect every civilian (read as non-military) round. Orks (in fluff) are similar. Orks have been known to wander about, aimlessly flailing their weapons and shooting at unseen targets even after decapitation. This is represented by thier Unnatural Toughness modifier. It is also mitigated with Felling. If I handed you a fully loaded M82A1 .50 and told you to kill a frothing, rampaging bull African elephant in one shot, do you reasonably believe you could do it without proper training in the weapon's use? It's nothing like using a .22 to shoot sparrows (again, African sparrows).

I'm opposed to the idea of a Weapon Training (Sniper) Talent, for the simple reason that the Sniper Rifle does not have the Felling Quality. It's name simply means it is intended to be more accurate, hence its Accurate Weapon Quality. You spend a bit more time, use a bit more concentration (Aim Actions) and voila! Accurate. Does it mitigate the Orks Unnatural Toughness modifier? No.
How about this: proper use of a weapon possessing the Felling Quality requires the prerequisite of Forbidden Lore (Xenos) Skill? No Test need actually be made, simply having the Skill indicates the Guardswoman using a Felling weapon has seen certain restricted documents revealing the inherent physical weaknesses of various Xenos creatures. Of course, GM discretion would be advised; you wouldn't think the restricted documents detailing Tyranids would be willingly shared when the regiment is heading to a warzone where Orks are the expected foe. Likewise, if you wanted to get the most out of a Felling weapon against the forces of the Traitor Legions you'd have to have Forbidden Lore (Astartes) or (Traitor Legions), otherwise a "one-shot to the heart" is going to end in disappointment. Good luck getting to see those documents.

Nah. Easiest solution is to add Exotic Weapon Training (Felling).

Part, the Third:
Yes, I am fully aware Operate allows for an Operator to use the weapons mounted on her vehicle. The connection I was trying to make is that an Operator is also (likely) trained in the use of Las weapons and, with such training, can simply pick up and use an Accurate Las weapon by using the same basic principles used when firing the Vanquisher Cannon (also an Accurate weapon), but was questioning the logic behind going from a big, tank-destroying weapon to a Basic-sized Felling weapon and automatically realizing the subtle yet significant differences in its application.

Operate makes a broad assumption when allowing Operators the ability to fire any and all weapons mounted on their vehicles. Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber, sponson-mounted Plasma Cannon, hull-mounted Heavy Flamer, no difference in the eyes of an Operator. And that, my friends, is sheer nonsense. A flaw in the mechanic concept of tanker PCs. Infantry and Mechanized regiments, while definitely known to operate in the field in-tandem, should still use distinctly different and encapsulated rules mechanics for PC creation and advancement. As has been said elsewhere: for FFG, including tanks and other vehicles in the game was a given, but they cared not to overthink their inclusion, or "this is not a tank sim."

I have news for FFG (which I'm sure they are equally aware of and don't care to address): the vehicle-related rules of Only War, as they interact with PC and the larger game, are aweful.

ive always seend felling as a intergral part of the wepon not the skill to use it its built into the weapon not the shooter i justifie the longlas having felling by asuming its just a more foucused beam(not enough to be a lance weapon but enough to cut through flesh and mucle easyer) or the gun has special ammo as described in the book(one gm sugested the long las uses radiation for felling) and on the whole weapon training issue and semi and full auto fire they are trained to fire the weapon in these manners most lasgun a guardsman gets there hands on are fairly standerdised the shoot basicly the same and have the same kick no army would train there soliders to shoot a gun on single shot and then just say"well thats all you get to learn goodbye" they would train them to shoot these guns as such adding in the obvious pryor experience with guns in general it does make sense to me

hunterkiller725 said:

QFT. Felling is not dependant on some sort of special ability the shooter has, it is a special ability of the gun itself. Maybe the weapon fires a highly acidic toxic that burns through flesh like jet fuel (Felling SP weapons) or it fires a better focused beam that doesn't lose efficiency as it goes through several layers of matter (Felling energy weapons). The thing works the same both in the hands of a master sniper and a lowly conscript, because the weapon fires the same way regardless of the skill of the user.

Also, Operate is super-good because vehicles are OP. So why would be the vehicle Skill any more different ?