I'm not sure I understand the point of Initiative and need some help

The side with initiaitve moves first with pilots of equal skill and shoots first against a pilot of equal skill

I can't see any point to it.

Combat - guy with initiative shoot first if pilot skills are tied - only when pilot skills are tied shooting is considered simultaneous, so I guess its only use is in knowing whether to spend your focus for offense or defense?

Movement - all movement planning is secret and simultaneous so again whats the point of initialitve. going first or last doesn't really affect which maneuvre you're going to pull [boba fett excepted] or the odds of overlapping a ship thats already moved or one that hasn't moved to loose an action.

consider a ship tailing another of the same pilot skill, if the tailing ship has initiative odds are he's going to overlap the ship he's tailing and loose his action. this doesn't make sense […think the game needs some tailing rules]

any one point out the obvious to me ?

Say two ships are moving to the same spot. The one that moves first gets an action.the one moving second will end overlapping and loose its action.

If moving first was an advantage, higher PS pilots would move first.

The truth is, having initiative is a disadvantage. Even shooting first is a disadvantage if your opponent is able to shoot anyway. The only time it is ever an advantage is if the shot causes a critical that interferes with shooting (Blinded Pilot, etc.) but the odds of that are very, very low.

This doesn't mean that you can't do things that are advantageous, such as blocking enemy ships (moving to where they will be to deny them actions), but that is accomplished much more efficiently by using lower PS pilots.

Shooting first is *never* a disadvantage. At worst, it makes no difference. At best, it destroys or critical hits an enemy before they get to shoot.

Yes, moving last (higher PS) can occasionally be disadvantageous, such as pointed out where the lower skill pilot gets into a position and ends up blocking. Then again, moving last also often has its advantages. Ships with Boost, barrel roll, daredevil, etc can make great use of knowing where all the ships are when they get their additional movement. OF course, moving last also means determining action last, which is a big advantage.

Of course its a disadvantage. Are you confusing the question? We are talking about ships with equal PS, which is the only time initiative comes into play. In that case, per the rules, firing is "simultaneous" and destroyed ships will be allowed to fire back. Whatever actions you take, including target selection, having more information allows you to make better choices.

For example, if your ship with a Homing Missile has a target lock but no focus, you may wish to wait until next round to shoot. However, if your opponent has already shot and you know that ship is going to die this turn, you fire your missile anyway.

Alternately, if your opponent fires and misses with everything, you can then make decisions about whether/what to fire and at whom based on the certain knowledge that your ships will survive the turn.

Both of those circumstances are far more common than getting a Blinded Pilot or Wounded Pilot critical against a ship with equal pilot skill, which is the only time initiative is a good thing.

Shooting first WOULD be an advantage if those ships were destroyed before they could fire, but with equal PS they get to shoot back anyway.

Of initiative were an advantage, I would want it every game. As it stands now, I do not want initiative. It is much more advantageous to move last just to see firing arcs and possibly boosting/barrel rolling out of the way. I always try not to get initiative.

nimdabew said:

Well okay, so you obviously have not yet lost 2 ships per turn before they could fire, or you have not tailed an enemy. Because when you're tailing and move first, he can make you ram him, or he just forced you to overshoot him. If he moved first perhaps you would not be tailing him anymore but at least he gets out of the way then.

there is not a lot of advantage in moving first, bit you can block some movements i guess. But that is rather due to thd lots of ships you have than to the fact you move first. If i can put a ship in any direction my opponent can go, he will collide, but if i have a smaller number of lowskill pilots even that advantage is gone.

There is absolutely never an advantage in shooting last really…

ForceM said:

You can't lose 2 ships in a turn before they can fire because you don't have initiative. If you are tailing and move first into the ship you are following because you move first it is not because you have initiative. You do know we are talking about pilots with the same skill here, right?

Ugh, wish I could edit that. I meant to say, "If you are tailing and move into the ship you are following because you move first it is because you have initiative."

The Thing In The Attic said:

It's simple really. The Initiative mechanic in the game is there to provide a method to determine an order of movement and shooting in a turn. Without it there would be no way to determine who would move first at each Pilot Skill step….same thing goes for the Combat Phase.

Masque said:

Tell that to the person who runs the TIE Swarm with 8 PS 1 & 2 Pilots.

The part that confuses me a bit is why the one with Initiative moves first AND fires first.

If Initiative is positive, wouldn't the one with Initiative move LAST and fire FIRST?

Masque said:

Err 2 different cases, and fir instance i have played Academy Ties and lost two if them per turn because Wedge and Biggs killed them before they could get their shots off, i also did it o someone else with Han Solo and Luke. Boom Boom two less bad guys and they ain't shooting back. Works exactly the same way if you both have skill 6 and one has the initiative…

Okay moving first is a disadvantage of course, but i did not have the impression you were only talking about equal pilot skill situations only at least in the first posts. Initiative is still an advantage for shooting first, but i would say the rule that the initiative player moves first is made to counterbalance him shooting first. This rule is not made to give the player with initiative an advantage at all, just to determine a turn order in a fair way!

If i could get initiative i would still take it though since for me firing first is more desirable than moving last!

ForceM -

I think you are misplaying initiative. If two pilots have equal PS, the one with initiative shoots first (which you stated). However, even if he destroys the other pilot that ship gets to shoot back (unlike when a ship is destroyed by a pilot with a higher PS). The only way shooting first is an advantage in a situation with equal PS is if you manage to cause a critical that affects the enemy pilots next shot (Blinded Pilot, Wounded Pilot). This is very, very rare.

On the other hand, knowing what results your opponent has obtained with his shooting is advantageous immediately, since you can base your shooting on what you know. I provided two examples earlier where a ship with ordnance is able to make an informed decision on whether or not to use that ordnance based on whether their opponent successfully attacked or not.

When talking about pilots with different PS, it is indeed an advantage (and a big one) to shoot first. But because the rules state that equal PS pilots get to shoot even if they are destroyed, that advantage disappears.

Initiative is a straight disadvantage the way the rules are written. A clever player will try to maneuver in ways that mitigate this (blocking, etc.), but the fact that it is a disadvantage remains.

No actually we have never misplayed it, i just forgot it while writing, since i was half asleep at that time, sorry. Also the first posts made me believe we were in fact talking about pilot skill for a few posts…

Well okay if played correctly it only gives you more choice concerning the token usage having the initiative, you can decide to use focus or keep it for defense, but not much more. Moving first is a disadvantage really (well except for real swarms used to block), so all in all i would think it makes the thing pretty balanced, which in fact should be intended.

In fact i always try to max out my lists at 100 points if possible, so for me there is obviously no deal about initiative really!

ForceM said:

initiative still becomes a factor here because in sides with equal points initiative is automatically awarded to the Imperials

Thanks for your replies, some great discussion,

I think combat is definately cleared up- with more choices available to the side without initiative: having to fire second, to me firing first must be a disadvantage seeing as it's simultaneous anyway for pilots of the same pilot skill.

Again moving first must be a both a disadvantage and an advantage depending on where units are placed in relation to other units. so in this case the answer that it just creates a turn order for orders sake sounds more correct to me

The Thing In The Attic said:

You are correct about that, thanks too!

Well so as a rebel i max my list and never worry about initiative anymore, since we found out that tehre is basically no advantage, just a method to bring more order in the turn…

Anyone have any thoughts on why Initiative means you move first?

If Initiative is an advantage (which it sounds as though it's meant to be, from the name), then shouldn't it correspond to the way that higher pilot skills move last?

Shouldn't the one with Initiative move LAST and fire FIRST?

Let's take an example: Darth Vader and Wedge Antilles are both PS 9. Both are about to move into the same space. Vader, with initiative, moves first, and gets his action. Wedge then moves, and collides, losing his action.

In a similar situation, Vader and Wedge are about to shoot each other, and both have focus tokens. Vader shoots first, scoring two hits. Wedge rolls to evade, and only comes up eyeballs. He uses his focus to change those to evades, and takes no damage. but now Wedge fires at Vader, and rolls only eyeballs. Having spent his focus defending, he's less useful on the attack.

In my estimation, initiative is a very very minor advantage, as it's exceedingly situational. It's main purpose is a) to provide some structure for who moves when in the event of a tie and b) provide a very minor balance when the squads are slightly uneven, like a 98 to 100 pt. squad.

The Thing In The Attic said:

you should also note that having the initiative in terms of firing first is that any crit effects will resolve before the pilot of the same skill value gets to shoot

for intance, using an Academy Tie vs a Prototype A-Wing
in this example the empire has the intitive
the Academy Tie attacks at range one, and scores 2 hits and 1 crit

the A-wing rolls defense and rolls all blanks
both his sheilds are stripped and the crit "blinded pilot" crit comes up (the next time you attack, do not roll any attack dice. then flip this card facedown)
well now it seems that the A-wing can't even shoot back period so the Tie fighter scored 3 hits and doesn't get shot at because of initiative

in most cases initiative is a good thing, whether it's denying actions or shooting first it will definitely be worth it
the only cases i've seen that initiative is a bad thing is in a very high pilot skill list with very manuverable ships such as tie interceptors, where you can assess the fields better to understand where your opponents ships will be and stay out of their fire arcs accordingly. so the firing order will not matter anyways if they aren't even shooting you in the first place

i hope i cleared this up

*edit* also should mention that another time you would not want the initiative is when building lists that use low pilot skills with missles as you'd like to get the shots off early and preferably at range 3 before they get too close and can't use them at all

If you believe initiative is a good thing, try an experiment. Move all of your ships before your opponent moves his. Unless you are both so new that people are still habitually running into each other, your opponent will have a decisive advantage moving last. Barrel rolls, choosing whether to focus or target lock (since you know whether or not you are in your opponents firing arc), getting target locks in the first place, it is extremely advantageous to move second. THAT IS WHY HIGH PS PILOTS MOVE LAST.

To illustrate the other point, have all of your ships shoot first but only apply criticals. Ships you destroy are allowed to stay on the board until the end of the turn and to return fire. You will again find that firing first is clearly a disadvantage. The very rare occasions where a crit interferes with your opponent's shot will be more than compensated for by his knowledge of your shooting results.

The easiest way to see this in action is for you and your opponent to choose lists of ships with equal PS on both sides, PS 4 is the easiest to do this with since there are generic pilots on both sides with that PS. Play that game out a few times, with initiative switching sides. You will quickly discover that having the initiative is a flat out disadvantage.

Blocking (which is what you keep referring to) is the only real advantage moving first has, but if your opponent is at all experienced he won't be flying into your ships anyway.

In the example above, with Vader and a focus token, it is far more likely to make a difference the other way. If your opponent fires you can decide whether or not to focus your defense, and save the focus if you don't need it. Whereas when shooting first you never know what your opponent is going to roll, either on defense or offense, so you are making your decision blind.

This really is straightforward, if it were an advantage to move first high PS pilots would be moving first. Firing first is only an advantage if the effects of your shooting also go first. If the vastly more significant part of those effects (blowing up) are not allowed to take place you are left with nothing.

KineticOperator said:

it all boils down to the type of list you plan on building, so it's not as black and white as you seem to think it is
i will argue your point that if you don't have a general idea of where your opponent is going to move in the first place even if you're going first, you should educate yourself and know what your opponent can and most likely will do

i've built many different lists, ones that want initiative and ones that don't want it
more often than not i want lists that take initiative and take advantage of shooting first, as there are a lot of critical effects out there that hinder the opponents ships

for example "Damaged Sensor Array" and "Thurst Control Fire" both hinder Turr from evading after his attack (which could have been avoided if he shot first)

"Blinded Pilot", "Munitions Failure" "Weapons Malfunction" and "Injured Pilot" are all critical hits that drastically change the outcomes of the round of firing even without killing the ship.. the ship is still severely hindered

executor said:

I get what you are saying, but you are using very specific, special circumstances to refute a general rule. Yes, Turr wants to shoot first. But you don't want initiative in that case, you want to take Veteran Instincts and have a higher PS. Criticals are not terribly common in this game even with the larger ships. Maybe that is the source of our apparent "disagreement". I am talking about Initiative specifically, not circumstances where ships have different PS.

I do run "blocking" lists, but in that case I still don't want initiative. What I want is a bunch of PS 1 pilots in cheap ships who move first/shoot last because they are cheap. If I am going to move first there are things I can do that take advantage of that fact, but I want to do it with ships that are cheap enough to put one in each of my opponents best move-to locations. I want my 2 Prototype Pilots for 34 points to set up in the places Vader wants to go, forcing Vader to either go to a substandard position or lose his two actions. What I don't want is to have my 34 point Wedge who "has initiative" be forced to move before Vader, who then uses barrel roll to put himself out of Wedge's firing arc entirely. Or if he can't avoid Wedge, just run into him and leave both of them not shooting at each other (but I don't have another ship to shoot at Vader because I sunk all those points into Wedge). Or if he isn't in Wedges arc in the first place he can Focus and Target Lock rather than waste an action on evade, etc., etc. The problem with having Initiative (as opposed to having inexpensive ships with low PS) is that your ships effectively "lose" 1 PS when it comes to moving and actions, but only gain a very minor advantage (the chance of an important Crit that doesnt hit shields) in return.

One more thing on crits - You not only have to inflict a relevant crit (and "Weapons Malfunction", "Munitions Failure", and "Injured Pilot" often don't apply to the ship being hit), you have to inflict that hit using a ship with equal PS, and even then having initiative only helps if the target you shot were planning to shoot back at another of your ships with exactly the same PS. If you shoot at that ship with a higher/lower PS, or if that ship shoots back at a higher/lower PS, then the effects of your critical are the same whether you have initiative or not. This is why it is so rare, it has to be the perfect crit, hitting on hull rather than shields, fired by the perfect ship, at the perfect target, who was also firing at a perfect target, all on the same turn. Very, very rare circumstances to say the least. Even in Turr vs. Turr, if his "first shot" would allow him to roll/boost out of my firing arc, then since I move second I should be able to see that and deal with it. My action can then be a boost/roll (when I move after him, before combat) to allow me to put myself someplace he won't be able to shoot at me at all, and very likely in a place where I can shoot him.

i know, i understand all the points very much so, but again most situations can be classified as "situational" because it really depends on what lists you are up against.. i see your point of trying to be the most effective that you can, but when it comes to tourney rules and rolling for initiative on tied squad points anyways, you can still end up in the same boat

so why not build around that?

i always try to max out my list to make 100 points, but if i have to take 99points because i'd rather have a stealth device on a particular ship than a sheild upgrade

i'm going to take the 99 point list and take the initiative instead because it will deem my squad more effective even with the initiative and just force me to play a bit more defensively with the list

also these "situational" crit effects seem to come up more often than not in most games i play, whether it effects myself or my opponent; there's almost always some form of ship handicap that happens that ultimately effects the attack back (even if it wasn't due to initiative and was just because of pilot skill)

finally, in response to if you take a tie swarm, you are still going to want that 99 pt initiative, because if you face off against another similar or mirror match tie swarm, they are going to deny you of your actions and most likely win out because of it (depending on dice luck of course)

I agree that crit results do come up, but I was specifically talking about Initiative. The times when those crit results matter in a case with equal PS skills are very rare. This is not the same thing as saying criticals generally are not an issue, they are comparatively uncommon but significant when they occur. They would be more significant except that very often ships that receive a crit result tend to take enough damage to blow up that same turn anyway. Unless they have an equal PS, the crit doesnt make much difference to a dead ship. :-)

Also, I may be giving the impression that I consider Intiative to be a big deal. I don't. Having the Initiative is a disadvantage, but not a huge one. There are things (like blocking) you can do to mitigate the disadvantage, and it is very unlikely to affect more than one or two ships anyway. Still, it is a disadvantage and all things being equal you are better off picking up an extra R2 on your Rookie to hit 100pts and avoid having initiative than you are running your list at 99 points. If you are building a blocking list you may wish to run 99 points because your entire list is based on you planning to move first, but as a general rule having the initiative is something that should be avoided.

In your example, if I were trying to decide whether to run Soontir Fel with a Stealth Device or a Shield Upgrade, I may just take the Stealth and run at 99 points because Stealth is a pretty big improvement on a guy who can have 2 focus tokens and an evade every turn. It might be enough of an improvement (depending on rest of my list) to make having the Initiative a price I am willing to pay. On the other hand, if my entire list relies on outmaneuvering my opponent (say, a bunch of Interceptors), having the Initiative may be too big a price to pay for the improvemet to that one ship.

There are always exceptions. But I beleive that in general, you should avoid having the Initiative.